Wells Fargo Hoard 1 1

[Alex in PA.]

The 'Hoard' of United States 1908 $20.00 gold 'Double Eagles'  approximately 19,900 coins was found in a Wells Fargo bank vault.  Does anyone really know where this came from? 

[Alex in PA.]

I have been reading up on this and I own one of those coins so I've got a renewed interest in the 1908 No Motto $20.00 coin.  

[RWB]

Goldfinger started a thread on this subject which should answer your questions. You can also consult my Saint-Gaudens Double eagle book, "Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles as Illustrated by the Phillip H. Morse and Steven Duckor Collections" available from Heritage Auctions, Dallas, TX (648 pages).

Edited May 10, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 2:14 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I have been reading up on this and I own one of those coins so I've got a renewed interest in the 1908 No Motto $20.00 coin.  

Congrats on the coin, Alex !!   Mazel Tov !!  

Here's the other thread with many useful (and useless ) posts.  I think I have some links here and some quotes from interesting websites.  Thread was originally much older but I re-started it on Page 2 about a year or so ago:

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

And at the risk of promoting commercialism on the site -- which I have no interest in doing -- let me just echo Roger's point above on his magnus opus on Saint-Gaudens DEs.

And a good way to support niche research like that or have the authors (we have several here) contribute selfessly and generously in posts here is to support their work by buying a quality book like that and spreading the word. 

Yeah, I'm biased..... and have no problem admitting it. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 2:12 PM, Alex in PA. said:

The 'Hoard' of United States 1908 $20.00 gold 'Double Eagles'  approximately 19,900 coins was found in a Wells Fargo bank vault.  Does anyone really know where this came from? 

Maybe the Mods want to lock this thread and link it to the one I posted above ?

Barring that, let me just answer your basic question Alex so you don't have to go fishing for an hour to find the answer:  the 19,900 coins were probably part of an international trade settlement.  Most likely a South or Central American country (coins moved very infrequently, unlike European hoards, which explains the superb quality)....and of course, their origin and place over the decades has NOTHING to do with a Wells Fargo branch.  They were simply stored at one in Las Vegas, NV while the sellers and buyer (Gillio) did their counting, tabulating, etc.

Remember, NOT all 1908 NM's are Wells Fargo Hoard coins.  I believe 1908 NM's were in OK supply before the WF Hoard was found.  After that, as I've detailed, the price at all Mint State grade points become the most affordable for any Saint in that particular grade.

Edited May 10, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Hey Alex...more tidbits on The WF Hoard.  This is from a back-and-forth over on the CU (PCGS) message boards a few years ago, I thought it was interesting.

Does any one know why it seem that the Wells Fargo ones seem to be graded higher than non
wells fargo coins?

Yup. When you have nearly 8,000 gem 1908 NM saints put aside at time of issue, it's not much of a stretch to figure there could be a lot of high grades in there. The median grade was MS66 when PCGS first did these (all OGHs). Only a single coin graded less than MS65....a lone MS63. Besides never being circulated, these bags of 1908's must have rarely moved because they don't have the hits often seen on coins this size and weight.

When these came out this lone hoard had >10X the number of 1908 NM MS66's than had ever been graded at PCGS. There had only been <25 MS67's and 0 MS68's up to that time. I've generally liked the quality of WF OGHs that I've run across though many people think they're over-graded. No doubt many were cracked out and resubmitted or sent to NGC. The heavy grade inflation in MS64-67 Saints really didn't begin until the 1998-2004 period. If not for this hoard MS66 and MS67 $20 Saint type coins would be a lot harder to come by. It's interesting that CAC has yet to sticker a single 1908 NM WF Saint. Here's the break down. 

MS65 - 2237 coins
MS66 - 4867 coins
MS67 - 695 coins
MS68 - 98 coins

Coins were brought onto the market thru Ron Gillio. They were in SDBs in a Las Vegas branch of Wells Fargo. More meaning thru a frontier-days meme, I suppose. They all went thru at once. Think about the gradeflation when grading a group as close to technicallly perfect as these pass thru the grading room for days and days as a steady stream. Helluva bell curve. or, as Broadsruck put it, "hoardflation"... Disagreeing with roadrunner (was the thread a year ago?),

I've observed these coins, and, because of them, all '08 NMs to be awful "investments" and a drag on the whole common-date Saints market. They are discriminated against for a reason. The coins may be technical 7+, but the satiny lustre has no immediate visual impact. The absence of detraction/distraction may be very apparent, but the blaze is not there. 

And they don't dip out worth chit.

FWIW, the shop I was working at happened to buy in a large group (100+) of BU Saints and send them in at the same time the "Wells Fargo" hoard was going through. The grades we got were, on average, about two points higher than we expected. Some of them were so overgraded we did not feel comfortable selling them to our retail customers, so we wholesaled them out instead.

I can't agree with the Colonel that the 1908's have been lousy investments....what generic gem gold hasn't been for the past 4-6 years? I can live with the 1908's having satiny luster that doesn't blind you like a 1923-D saint. Can't have it all.

I'm sure a lot of MS66 and MS67 common date "O" mint silver dollars don't have the luster pizzaz of an 1880-S or 1881-S....think 83-0, 84-0, 85-0. And they tend to be much more softly struck. So be it. Some coins don't come from the US mint in AAA quality, eye appeal, and moon monster blast. I'll take them as they come. Gem WF Saints are nice looking coins to me. And who really cares if gem original coins can't dip out for an upgrade? I sure hope that the majority of WF saints didn't go through the dip machine before getting originally graded.

The odd part is, as a bourse buyer, I almost never see these high grade Wells Fargo coins. With 8,000 of them graded, where are they? As type collector I might consider buying one of these "stigmatized" coins if the price was right (relatively cheap). Getting to upgrade a gold coin from the era from MS-65 to MS-67 could be exciting, but like I said I never see the coins.

As a collector, I'd rather have an '07 in PCGS 64 CAC for a NM type coin, even for more money. Great skin, lustre and color are available. Or a '24-'28 in MS65 as my one type coin. Put a 27P in 66CAC next to an 08NM in 67. Don't think, use your reptile brain . . . Per JA "They're really pretty bullion, aren't they?"

YMMV

Just my 20 bucks worth . . .

My guess as to why not that many around is because lots of ignorant people were sold super-grade coins via promotion by Spectrum at a time when CAC wasn't around. Which may not have mattered. All the NGC coins are attempted upgrades. Some made it, some didn't.

Edited September 26, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

I cannot believe anyone can walk around with this quite voluminous body of knowledge. I cannot believe a single question elicited it!  Many thanks, gentlemen!    🐓  

[GoldFinger1969]

Can anybody confirm it it is still true that CAC/JA have never stickered ANY 1908 NM from the WF Hoard ?

They may have stickered the older, non-WF 1908 NMs.  Want to know about the 1908 NMs from WF.

I don't think this is on the CAC website.

[MarkFeld]

On 5/29/2022 at 11:19 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Can anybody confirm it it is still true that CAC/JA have never stickered ANY 1908 NM from the WF Hoard ?

They may have stickered the older, non-WF 1908 NMs.  Want to know about the 1908 NMs from WF.

I don't think this is on the CAC website.

As I posted to another thread here, a short while ago, CAC has stickered more then 3000 1908 No Motto Saints. I bet some of those are Wells Fargo examples, even if no longer designated as such.

Edited to add: The link below, from the Heritage auction archives, pulls up multiple CAC examples.

https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Ns=Time|1||Lot+No|0&N=51+404+790+231&Ntt=1908+wells+fargo+cac&ic4=SortBy-071515

Edited May 29, 2022 by MarkFeld

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting about the Samaszko Hoard, the 2012 hoard found in a Carson City, Nevada recluses home after he died.

There were about 1,200 Saint-Gaudens DEs and about 300 Eagles found in the hoard.  Most were common dates or in worn condition so that they maybe sold for just over spot bullion.

Gonna try and track down the finest ones from that hoard since apparently NGC gave them a label.

Edited November 10, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Because we have a longer Wells Fargo Hoard Thread, I thought I would include some other Saint Hoard findings that I've tabulated in this smaller thread.

I thought a year-by-year rundown of the various Saint hoards might be of interest. Most of this information is from Roger Burdette's excellent book on Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles but also includes snippetts I've collected over the years from various sources. Down the line, I'll probably put it into a nice Word or PDF document if anybody wants it, with more details and commentary than these summaries.

I'll do them a few at a time, unless there's so much information that a sole entry is best.   

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: 

Here's the MCMVII 1907 HR, 1907, and 1908-D Short Ray No Motto:

MCMVII High Relief: The actor Adolphe Menjou supposedly had 250 High Relief coins. A hard-money believer, he told many friends he had lots of gold squirreled away in various SDBs thoughout LA and California in the 1930's and 1940's. He died in 1963 and his coins were sold off in auctions up to the 1970's but I could not find any articles or public mentions of any sizeable 1907 HR stache at that time.

1907: 95% of the mintage found its way to overseas vaults. Most went to Europe where they exhibited marks and abrasions consistent with handling during counting, stacking and re-bagging operations. About 35% may have gone to Central and South American countries where the coins remained in their original bags and were subject to much less moving, bag marks, etc. Survivors from these pieces are the primary source of high-grade examples of this date.

1908-D Short Ray No Motto: No large hoards have been found. Most of the pieces came from European central banks looted by Germany during World War II and eventually stored in the Kaiseroda potassium mine near the village of Merkers. It is probable that most 1908-D SR NM coins came from here.

[VKurtB]

On 11/14/2022 at 9:10 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

1907: 95% of the mintage found its way to overseas vaults.

Interesting way to put it. I get a mental picture of $20 gold pieces randomly staggering drunk on a pier somewhere, and accidentally getting kicked aboard ship by a careless human. Another way to put this is “they were smuggled overseas”, no?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/14/2022 at 11:38 AM, VKurtB said:

Interesting way to put it. I get a mental picture of $20 gold pieces randomly staggering drunk on a pier somewhere, and accidentally getting kicked aboard ship by a careless human. Another way to put this is “they were smuggled overseas”, no?

Not smuggled, but international trade for the most part, Kurt. 

And with countries and boundaries disappearing for decades in Europe....local and continent-wide wars....gold coins found a bigger following among banks and the citizenry than over here in the U.S.

SDBs and bank vaults in Europe probably had the bulk of today's remaining Saint-Gaudens coinage.  Can't remember if RWB's Saints DE gave a split, but I would wenture that only a few hundred thousand (tops) were in the hands of collectors, dealers, and Americans using their 5-coin limit....the rest from European and South/Central American hoards.

[VKurtB]

On 11/14/2022 at 1:57 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Not smuggled, but international trade for the most part, Kurt. 

Really? I’d like to read more suggesting it was innocent international trade. In those years, we had trade surpluses. Why would our gold end up there?

Edited November 14, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/14/2022 at 3:00 PM, VKurtB said:

Really? I’d like to read more suggesting it was innocent international trade. 

DEs backed Gold Certificates and were used in international trade (alongside 400 oz. bars).  RWB's book has several chapters and lots of pages documenting specific usages.  You even have specific year and mintages of Saints being tracked for particular uses (i.e, The Dawes Plan and 1925 Saints).

It is believed that the 1908 Wells Fargo No Motto Hoard was originally used in 1917 for some international trade settlement.

[VKurtB]

On 11/14/2022 at 2:13 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

DEs backed Gold Certificates and were used in international trade (alongside 400 oz. bars).  RWB's book has several chapters and lots of pages documenting specific usages.  You even have specific year and mintages of Saints being tracked for particular uses (i.e, The Dawes Plan and 1925 Saints).

It is believed that the 1908 Wells Fargo No Motto Hoard was originally used in 1917 for some international trade settlement.

“It is believed” is passive voice mealy mouth language I try to never put faith in. Try it with “this person believes…”

Filed under “mistakes were made”.

Edited November 14, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

I may just have to knuckle under and buy another RWB book. I wish he did hard cover. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/14/2022 at 3:30 PM, VKurtB said:

I may just have to knuckle under and buy another RWB book. I wish he did hard cover. 

From the thread, I believe that choice was made by HA.  I made the same suggestion.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/14/2022 at 3:24 PM, VKurtB said:

“It is believed” is passive voice mealy mouth language I try to never put faith in. Try it with “this person believes…”

Filed under “mistakes were made”.

Sometimes you can say some things definitively and other times you can't.

It's a logical conclusion about the WF NM Hoard.  It COULD turn out to be something else -- maybe a general's mistress inherited it from monies he stole -- but we don't know that.  At times we have to make best-educated guesses and engage in reasonable speculation.  Individuals can make up their own minds.

Since the information at hand is not going to materially change the nature of the find or their monetary worth -- as if they were said to be personally collected by President Theodore Roosevelt -- my own feeling is that generalizations of this sort are perfectly legitimate under generally accepted research standards.

FWIW, Ron Gillio probably has more details (or at least details told to him by those who had the hoard before him) which may or may not add more facts to the story.

Edited November 14, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 11/14/2022 at 3:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Sometimes you can say some things definitively and other times you can't.

It's a logical conclusion about the WF NM Hoard.  It COULD turn out to be something else -- maybe a general's mistress inherited it from monies he stole -- but we don't know that.  At times, we have to make best-educated guesses and engage in reasonable speculation.  Individuals can make up their own minds.

Since the information at hand is not going to materially change the nature of the find or their monetary worth -- as if they were said to be personally collected by President Theodore Roosevelt -- my own feeling is that generalizations of this sort are perfectly legitimate under generally accepted research standards.

FWIW, Ron Gillio probably has more details (or at least details told to him by those who had the hoard before him) which may or may not add more facts to the story.

Well, I suppose it beats, “Surely there must have been…”

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/14/2022 at 4:14 PM, VKurtB said:

Well, I suppose it beats, “Surely there must have been…”

I think the stories that accompany our coins is part of the allure.  I know you don't like gold so I would not expect the stories that are part of gold's history to appeal to you.  Which is fine.

But I find them of great interest. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/14/2022 at 4:24 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think the stories that accompany our coins is part of the allure.  I know you don't like gold so I would not expect the stories that are part of gold's history to appeal to you.  Which is fine.

But I find them of great interest. 

I actually enjoy European gold. It doesn’t carry around the stench of Bretton Woods. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/14/2022 at 5:28 PM, VKurtB said:

I actually enjoy European gold. It doesn’t carry around the stench of Bretton Woods. 

I'm not really familiar with European gold strikings, except the UK (somewhat).

With the United States...you had 1 ounce gold coins minted in only 2 types -- Liberty Head and Saint-Gaudens -- for over 80 years.  

Not sure if Europe had that type of consistency with large or small denomination gold coins.  Even QA's Roosters were minted only over a relatively short period of time.

[VKurtB]

On 11/14/2022 at 6:14 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm not really familiar with European gold strikings, except the UK (somewhat).

With the United States...you had 1 ounce gold coins minted in only 2 types -- Liberty Head and Saint-Gaudens -- for over 80 years.  

Not sure if Europe had that type of consistency with large or small denomination gold coins.  Even QA's Roosters were minted only over a relatively short period of time.

And Angels before them. The “golden era” of European gold was about 1865ish to 1914ish.  One ounce-ish was never a popular size in Europe, the 100 Franc being the notable exception. About 0.2 ounce-ish was the norm for Europe. The French 100 Franc pieces all have low mintages. The mintage high water mark was the 1857A Napoleon III with a bit over 103,000. None of the late ones got close. The Monnaie de Paris is on my agenda for the next trip across the pond. Easy walk to the Cathedral de Notre Dame work site. I keep cajoling my wife to invite her sister and her husband along. She’s fluent in French. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/14/2022 at 8:05 PM, VKurtB said:

One ounce-ish was never a popular size in Europe, the 100 Franc being the notable exception. About 0.2 ounce-ish was the norm for Europe. The French 100 Franc pieces all have low mintages. Inte

Interesting....that's about the equivalent of a $2.50 quarter Eagle.....I guess European mints struck smaller coins because they were more likely to be used by their citizenry.  The bulk of our mintages were for the larger denomination coins, Eagles and Double Eagles.

I would guess that the European countries used gold bars in their trade settlements, since it would be unecommical and a waste to have to use the small denomination coins they struck most.

[GoldFinger1969]

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: More hoard tidbits for the next 3 coins in the series.

1908-D Type 3 / Long Rays, With Motto: Several hundred coins for this particular type came from Central America in 1983. The Manfra, Tordella, and Brookes Hoard (1983) is probably the largest gold coin hoard ever found. Most of the 47,000 coins consisted of U.S. Double Eagles, mostly Saints, but many Liberty Heads, too. The rest (<5,000) were smaller denomination gold coins.

Discovered in Central America -- El Salvador -- more than 90% of the coins were uncirculated. Thousands graded MS64, MS65, and even higher.  Stack’s co-sold the coins and they say they were contacted by a major foreign bank to gauge interest in acquiring a large holding of U.S. gold coins consisting mostly of Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles.   It was one of the major banks who received and stored U.S. gold coins as payment from the U.S. government.

There were over 100 MS64, MS65, and MS66 specimens for this particular 1908-D WM LR. Subsequently other uncirculated examples of the 1908-D WM including many choice specimens, were located in Europe and sold in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Because of this increased supply, as many as 250-300 Gem Mints are now known of this previously impossible-to-find issue, although no more than a few, perhaps 12-15 at most, are Superb Gems (MS-67 and up).

1908-D No-Motto: The same MTB 1983 El Salvador Hoard contained many uncirculated examples of the 1908-D No Motto, many of them grading choice to gem uncirculated with some superb MS66. Before the hoard, the 1908-D NM was very scarce in high grades.

1908 No-Motto: The famous "Wells Fargo Saint-Gaudens Hoard" was comprised of 19,900 coins from Central or South American. The hoard's Saint DEs had been kept in sealed bags since 1917. These bags had been temporarily stored in the vault of a Wells Fargo Bank, to which the hoard owes its name.

The 1908 No-Motto Saints from the "Wells Fargo Hoard" are of nearly uniform high quality, most grading out in the MS65 to MS67 range when they were submitted to the major certification services. Even more significantly, the hoard contained 10 MS-69s, 101 MS-68's, and over 1,000 MS-67's.

There's more details to the story, but Ron Gillio has never given specifics on the nature of the hoard: who owned the coins, which country they came from, bank or private investor or military personnel or govt agency, etc. It's understandable why he would remain quiet when the coins came out in the late-1990's; you would hope he would not be as constrained 25 years later.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/29/2022 at 2:33 PM, MarkFeld said:

As I posted to another thread here, a short while ago, CAC has stickered more then 3000 1908 No Motto Saints. I bet some of those are Wells Fargo examples, even if no longer designated as such.

For those following this thread....Mark was correct as I indicated above regarding CAC stickering of Wells Fargo 1908 No-Motto Saints.

I found the quote in my notes regarding no stickering....the coins CAC has not stickered from The Wells Fargo No-Motto Hoard (or any 1908 NM's for that matter) are those graded MS-68 and MS-69, the top 2 grades all of which but 1 (MS-68) I believe are from the WF Hoard.

There are 1908 NM's -- WF and non-WF -- that are CAC-worthy in lots of grades up to MS-67.  But that's it.

Edited November 29, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date: More hoard factoids for the next 3 coins in the series. 

1909:  A few hundred pieces found in the early-1980’s by MTB, mostly MS 60-63 and AU’s. Prior to the early-1990's, when a fairly large hoard of uncirculated examples was discovered in Europe, the 1909 was considered to be a very scarce issue in any grade and a rare one in choice uncirculated condition or better. The hoard changed all that, however, and now the 1909 is strictly a condition rarity.

The 1909 Saint-Gaudens double eagle is an issue that has never been fully appreciated as a difficult to locate coin in high mint state grades. This could be due, in part, to the relative availability of lower level uncirculated examples in the MS60 to MS63 range. A small hoard of a few hundred pieces was located by Manfra, Tordella and Brookes in the early 1980’s, and this made lower uncirculated grade coins available. However, choice and gem quality pieces remain very elusive.

1909/8:  Rare up to the 1960’s before Paul Wittlin finds (buyer for James Kelly and then Paramount International Coin Corp) via Paris and Swiss banks. Other hoards found later.

1909-D:   1983 MTB El Salvador Hoard; 49,000 coins. 2 bags of 500 coins came back to U.S. from Central America and also from Europe. Another 2 or 3 bags from Europe. MTB and Akers no more info following Hurricane Sandy and Akers' passing.

Akers: “When Gerald Bauman of Manfra, Tordella and Brookes called me one day in 1983 to tell me about the incredible hoard of U.S. double eagles they had just acquired from Central America, he said they had large quantities of scarce, beautiful, original high quality Liberty Heads (1901-S, 1902-S, and 1905-S among others), and also a great many incredible quality Saints including such dates as 1909-S, 1910-S, 1911-S, 1914-S, 1915-S, and 1916-S. Obviously, I was impressed and interested in seeing them and purchasing as many as I could. But then Bauman let the hammer drop and said the hoard also included hundreds of seldom, if ever seen, choice uncirculated and even better examples of the 1908-D No Motto, 1908-D With Motto, 1909-D and 1922-S. Needless to say, I could not get to New York City fast enough and it turned out that everything Bauman had said about the coins was absolutely true, perhaps even understated.

After spending an entire afternoon looking at representative samples of each issue, we discussed the terms under which I could buy the coins I wanted. My greatest interest was in the four rarest issues, including the 1909-D, and Bauman said that I could pick out what I wanted on an individual basis if I were willing to pay a substantial premium price and would take a minimum guaranteed quantity of each issue. After seeing the quality of the coins it was clear this was a reasonable request on Bauman’s part and an easy decision on mine to agree.

I still rank this as one of my greatest thrills in the coin business, both for myself person-ally and for the many collectors to whom I sold the coins. The 1909-D and 1922-S were the real prizes of the hoard and it is not hyperbole to note that virtually all of the choice, very choice and gem uncirculated examples of both of these issues that are available to collectors today came from the Central American hoard.

Before discovery of this hoard in 1983, the 1909-D was considered rarer than either 1908-S, or 1913-S. Most of the several hundred hoard pieces were in lower uncirculated grades and had likely originated in Europe. David Akers commented,

The 1909-D has the fourth lowest mintage of the Saint-Gaudens series after the 1907 High Relief, 1908-S and 1913-S. It is actually much more rare than the High Relief or 1913-S, however, and is virtually identical in both overall rarity and condition rarity to the 1908-S. Of the fifty-five Saint-Gaudens issues, I rank the 1909-D as the 16th rarest. The 1909-D is usually found in EF or AU condition and average quality uncirculated pieces are very scarce. Choice or gem quality coins are rare and most collectors looking for a gem 1909-D have been disappointed because there just aren’t that many around.

Edited December 2, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/1/2022 at 5:52 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Saint-Gaudens Hoards By Date:

1909-D:   1983 MTB El Salvador Hoard; 49,000 coins. 2 bags of 500 coins came back to U.S. from Central America and also from Europe. Another 2 or 3 bags from Europe....

If you would, I would like to have a better understanding of how the importation of a "hoard" is accomplished.

Did someone accompany these coins through Customs?  What kind of paperwork would he be expected to provide?  The coins had to have been declared, but would they be taxed or assessed fees? If it had been me, would I be asked where I had gotten them from and to whom I intended to deliver them? Must someone be prepared to provide documentation as to how and when he had acquired a "hoard"? Must a complete inventory of the cache by date and number be provided?  Are we talking something a bit more complicated than Quintus Arrius arriving aboard an airliner in Miami with a passport and CBP forms accompanied by a [reinforced]  suitcase?