U.S. coins do not have "wire edges" 0

[RWB]

RE: “1907 Double Eagle High Relief - wire edge”

Herb_T Posts: 721

January 16, 2022 12:19PM

What effect to the overall grade does gaps/missing in areas of the wire edge have on the overall grade of the coin. Assume the rest of the coin is great. Looking for some input….,thanks in advance.

MFeld Posts: 6,862

January 16, 2022 12:25PM

As long as the mentioned areas aren’t due to post-strike damage, none.

The above was posted on another message board and deserves a certain amount of follow-up information. Mr. Feld is spot-on in his comment.

First, there is no “wire edge” double eagle – or any other U.S. coin. Edges are plain, lettered, ornamented or reeded. The characteristic being referred to is called a “fin.” It is a defect caused by mismatch between the dies and collar. A fin is especially bad for gold coins because the very thin piece of metal is easily broken off, and thus diminishes the gold content (weight) of the coin.

Second, nearly all high relief MCMVII double eagles had a compete or partial fin rim from August to about mid-December when Director Leach got the Philadelphia Mint to use a different blank upsetting angle for planchets. This resulted is almost complete elimination of the defect. Engraver Barber expressed these fear that coins were so good that President Roosevelt would order their manufacture continued.

See Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 for details.

Edited January 18, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/17/2022 at 7:13 PM, RWB said:

A fin is especially bad for gold coins because the very thin piece of metal is easily broken off, and thus diminishes the gold content (weight) of the coin.

Isn't it extra gold, like runoff ?  If so, then it's falling off shouldn't materially impact breaching the tolerance level, right ?

I know you chimed in (probably on the SAINTS BOOK thread) but the "fin" or "wire edge" looks like a miniscule amount of gold relative to the gold coin (and that's assuming it is NOT extra, superflous runoff).  So even if a good chunk of the 360-degree amount came off, would it amount to much ?

[Just Bob]

On 1/17/2022 at 7:00 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Isn't it extra gold, like runoff ?  If so, then it's falling off shouldn't materially impact breaching the tolerance level, right ?

I know you chimed in (probably on the SAINTS BOOK thread) but the "fin" or "wire edge" looks like a miniscule amount of gold relative to the gold coin (and that's assuming it is NOT extra, superflous runoff).  So even if a good chunk of the 360-degree amount came off, would it amount to much ?

How could it be "extra" gold? All of the planchets were the same weight and size before striking - within tolerance, of course. It would just be gold that was in a different place than it should have been.

If the "fin" is called a "wire" anything, it should be "wire rim." The edge is not affected, since it is inside the collar. But the term "wire rim" could imply a different method of manufacture, as opposed to a "normal rim," which was not the case. So, "fin" seems like the most perspicuous choice.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/17/2022 at 10:43 PM, Just Bob said:

How could it be "extra" gold? All of the planchets were the same weight and size before striking - within tolerance, of course. It would just be gold that was in a different place than it should have been.

I guess I'm not an expert on the intricacies of the striking of the press, planchets, etc....I thought it was EXTRA gold -- like when you over-stuff a cookie mold and there's extra batter around the mold (sorry for the dumb analogy, it's the best I can do  ).

I didn't think that the fin was gold from elsewhere on the Saint....I thought it was "runoff" or a miniscule amount of "extra" gold.

[RWB]

On 1/18/2022 at 12:04 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I guess I'm not an expert on the intricacies of the striking of the press, planchets, etc....I thought it was EXTRA gold -- like when you over-stuff a cookie mold and there's extra batter around the mold (sorry for the dumb analogy, it's the best I can do  ).

I didn't think that the fin was gold from elsewhere on the Saint....I thought it was "runoff" or a miniscule amount of "extra" gold.

There are details in From Mine to Mint, and Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908. Time to update you library?

As JustBob noted, all the planchets are the same weight and dimensions. How could there be any "extra" gold - everything in the coin has to be in the planchet to begin with.

Edited January 18, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/18/2022 at 10:32 AM, RWB said:

There are details in From Mine to Mint, and Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908. Time to update you library?

I have an autographed copy of FMTM !    But read it a few years ago and don't recall that section.

Want to get RoAC when I have the time -- and $$$ -- to read/buy it !!  

[Conder101]

The loss of that fin may seem small compared to the rest of the coin, but gold is heavy, and the tolerance on the double eagle was only .03 grams.  So maybe the loss of the fin could put it out of tolerance.

[RWB]

On 1/18/2022 at 2:24 PM, Conder101 said:

The loss of that fin may seem small compared to the rest of the coin, but gold is heavy, and the tolerance on the double eagle was only .03 grams.  So maybe the loss of the fin could put it out of tolerance.

This was one of director Leach's complaints. The adjusters were also at a loss when inspecting the coins -- by normal standards nearly every MCMVII DE should have been rejected.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/18/2022 at 3:05 PM, RWB said:

This was one of director Leach's complaints. The adjusters were also at a loss when inspecting the coins -- by normal standards nearly every MCMVII DE should have been rejected.

So why weren't they ?  Pressure to get the coins to TR ?

[RWB]

On 1/18/2022 at 4:31 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

So why weren't they ?  Pressure to get the coins to TR ?

Mint officers wanted to reassure President Roosevelt they were producing coins and distributing them to Sub-treasuries. All of this was exacerbated by the absence of a low relief coin until Barber finally managed to make a usable set of dies for the toggle presses and get the lettered edge collar mechanics working. (I suspect there are several  edge errors and test versions out there among 1907 low relief coins, but coin holders obscure coin edges. When I wrote the DE book there were not enough 1907 DE available with edges that could be examined.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:17 PM, RWB said:

Mint officers wanted to reassure President Roosevelt they were producing coins and distributing them to Sub-treasuries. All of this was exacerbated by the absence of a low relief coin until Barber finally managed to make a usable set of dies for the toggle presses and get the lettered edge collar mechanics working. (I suspect there are several  edge errors and test versions out there among 1907 low relief coins, but coin holders obscure coin edges. When I wrote the DE book there were not enough 1907 DE available with edges that could be examined.)

Any thought to continuing to strike the MCMVII HR's as a regular coin and not go to low-relief ?  I know the UHR was not feasible, but maybe they could have gotten enough HR's struck from all 3 mints to satisy global trade demands and the miniscule circulation needs of the U.S. ?

Considering the surplus of low-relief coins from 1907-32, we probably could have gotten away with a lower quantity of High Reliefs in their place.

Edited January 18, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Conder101]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:40 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Any thought to continuing to strike the MCMVII HR's as a regular coin and not go to low-relief ? 

Because even the HR would not have struck up well enough with a single strike of the press.  They would probably have come out of the press looking like a VF coin.

[DWLange]

Quote

They would probably have come out of the press looking like a VF coin.

Then I could afford to buy one!

[RWB]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:40 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Any thought to continuing to strike the MCMVII HR's as a regular coin and not go to low-relief ?  I know the UHR was not feasible, but maybe they could have gotten enough HR's struck from all 3 mints to satisy global trade demands and the miniscule circulation needs of the U.S. ?

Considering the surplus of low-relief coins from 1907-32, we probably could have gotten away with a lower quantity of High Reliefs in their place.

The HR DR required 3 blows from a medal press. A normal toggle press would not work. Therefore, the other mints would have had to buy medal presses, plus add to their annealing capabilities.

A toggle press could produce 80 DE per minute with few breaks. It took far longer to strike one HR DE -- the number is in the book, but I forget what it was.

Further it took 4 months to get Denver's equipment to strike the edge lettering and SF took 8 months.

The medal presses were operated at about 130 tons, net. That was far below capacity, but about all the dies could withstand (150 max at that time). A toggle press could reach the same pressure but was hopeless to try and align 3 blows, especially with the coins being annealed between blows. (Coins change shape slightly with annealing.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/19/2022 at 3:53 PM, Conder101 said:

Because even the HR would not have struck up well enough with a single strike of the press.  They would probably have come out of the press looking like a VF coin.

I'm assuming 3 strikes as needed, resulting in lower production numbers, but still enought with other gold items (bars, ingots, etc.) to meet global trade and domestic coin needs.

Outside of the mandate to have coins (only) backing Gold Certificates, you really didn't need coins to make up global gold trade needs as gold bars and ingots apparently could have made up the difference or done the heavy lifting for the bulk of the trade.  At least that's one theme that comes across from RWB's SAINTS DE book.

Edited January 19, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/19/2022 at 4:16 PM, RWB said:

The HR DR required 3 blows from a medal press. A normal toggle press would not work. Therefore, the other mints would have had to buy medal presses, plus add to their annealing capabilities.

Any idea how much a medal press cost back then compared to a regular press ?

Would the coins have looked bad if not annealed ?  You'd still have the high relief shape, just wouldn't have the shine and luster, right ?

On 1/19/2022 at 4:16 PM, RWB said:

A toggle press could produce 80 DE per minute with few breaks. It took far longer to strike one HR DE -- the number is in the book, but I forget what it was.

Was it 12 minutes per HR -- or was that 12 minutes per UHR ?  That works out to 5 an hour...can't be that low.  I thought I remember it was like a few per minute....but 80-90% reduced quantities from the low-reliefs.  Can't recall where I read that...maybe from you, or another source.

On 1/19/2022 at 4:16 PM, RWB said:

Further it took 4 months to get Denver's equipment to strike the edge lettering and SF took 8 months.

The medal presses were operated at about 130 tons, net. That was far below capacity, but about all the dies could withstand (150 max at that time). A toggle press could reach the same pressure but was hopeless to try and align 3 blows, especially with the coins being annealed between blows. (Coins change shape slightly with annealing.)

Great stuff, thanks.  Who made these presses -- had to be someone the government looked after closely, they didn't want them sending presses to counterfeiters ?  Must have been on the East Coast and it took a while to get them to Denver and SanFran, even with trains.

[RWB]

Responses to questions, above:

1 & 3) A toggle press from Ferracute Machine Company in New Jersey cost approximately $4,000 – they were individually build to order. (See their toggle press patent in JNR #1, along with Janvier’s reducing lathe patent.) Hydraulic presses were made by several companies and were also custom built for coin and medal work. They cost from $9,000 to $16,000 depending on tonnage.

Striking a coin work hardens the metal, if not softened between blows, fine detail would not have been brought up. It has little to do with surface “shine.” The MCMVII HR had almost no luster – that results from die use.

Coin press manufacturers routinely verified orders for presses through the US Mint. If the Mexico Mint ordered a Ferracute coin press, the company would verify details through our Mint. (See comments about coin presses for Imperial and China Republic.)

2) Twelve (12) minutes was the estimated total time to make one coin; however, the coins were made in batches so about 1 coin could be given 1 blow each 30 seconds in a medal press. While these were being annealed, another batch could be struck, then a 3^rd batch. By this time the first batch was ready for their 2^nd blow. These took longer because they had to be carefully seated in the lower die to avoid getting a double image. (We don’t know the number rejected because of doubling.). The whole cycle of batch striking and annealing would be repeated for the 3^rd blow – again with more time to seat the coin and also to replace the plain collar with a lettered one.

They had only one pair of dies and one 3-part lettered collar (same as for pattern pieces). A second pair of dies and collar were added in November 1907. (I suspect the first approx. 500 from the original dies are pieces some call “proofs” – which they are not. All the coins were made the same way. But, this was not known until I did the research and found written descriptions and related information.)

Edited January 21, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

Fantastic information Roger, thanks a bunch !  

[RWB]

At least these tiny bits will survive when I die.

[Just Bob]

On 1/21/2022 at 4:03 PM, RWB said:

At least these tiny bits will survive when I die.

And, the numismatic world will be richer for it, in my opinion.

[RWB]

one can hope.....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/21/2022 at 5:52 PM, Just Bob said:

And, the numismatic world will be richer for it, in my opinion.

Seriously, you wonder how many really good threads here, at PCGS, CT, etc....have gotten deleted or even lost due to glitches that had invaluable comments, data, charts, or back-and-forth commentary. 

I got most of a classic PCGS thread on Franklin Gradeflation which was really eye-opening, but other good threads got shut and/or deleted because of TOS or "alleged" TOS violations.  And in a Is-This-Real-Or-BS thread from a guy connected to Mafioso Joe "Bananas" Bonanno...a few of us only have the posts by the son of the lawyer who represented JB, interesting as they may be.  For some reason, we don't have all the quesitons and comments by others which really detracts from the usefulness of the thread (like listening to only 1-side of a phone conversation).