1907 UHR Saint-Gaudens Sells for $4,100,000 1 1

[zadok]

1 minute ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

It was a recent article, I think I linked to it in anothe thread...but I am sure it wasn't David Tripp, it was CoinWEEK writers.  Tripp only seems to write on the Weitzman 1933 Saint.  He's a 1-trick pony. 

not accurate....see my notes to u on the uspatterns.com reference....u will see he also did research on the '07 ehr double eagles etc....so he at least a two trick pony.....my ref to u was on the uspattern article n the more recent '33 de article not the coinweek article u linked with....just saying the two de articles on the '33 n '07 ehr pedigrees sort of go hand in hand n both had association with tripp at one time or another....as said small world, this coin collecting wading pool....

[GoldFinger1969]

I'll check it out, Zad, maybe I missed it.  Although I usually click immediately.

[zadok]

Just now, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'll check it out, Zad, maybe I missed it.  Although I usually click immediately.

my initial response was to ur article from coinweek.....to clarify....i was just saying that the coinweek article on '07 ehr pattern pedigrees went hand in hand with tripps earlier article on '33 de pedigrees....similar type articles on de pedigrees....sort of nice to keep track of who owns what, like tracking '04 dollars or '13 nickels....i also made a reference to the fact that tripp had conducted some research into the background on both the '07 ehr n '33 de, hence small world....in addition i gave u the ref location on the previously discussed source on the edge lettering orientation in the uspattern.com article....multiple subjects in the weeds i guess, but in ur de area of interest.....

[GoldFinger1969]

Zad, this spike we are seeing in prices for the UHRs I think is probably a reflection of the fact that even though the population size is close to the 1927-D's, the coin has a larger buying base. The 1927-D hasn't seen an explosion in price. Folks will buy a 1907 High Relief or a 1907 UHR even if they aren't coin collectors because of the uniqueness of the coins.  

Conversely, unless someone who isn't a coin collector just wants to own the rarest (ex-1933) U.S. Saint, the 1927-D is pretty much like all the other regular business strike Saints.  The 1907 HR's and UHR's at least have unique designs and can be considered artistic coins.

If there had been more 1933 Saints legal to own in 2002, then Weitzman probably has zero interest in the 1933 Saint he bought.

Edited April 17, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Zad, this spike we are seeing in prices for the UHRs I think is probably a reflection of the fact that even though the population size is close to the 1927-D's, the coin has a larger buying base. The 1927-D hasn't seen an explosion in price. Folks will buy a 1907 High Relief or a 1907 UHR even if they aren't coin collectors because of the uniqueness of the coins.  

Conversely, unless someone who isn't a coin collector just wants to own the rarest (ex-1933) U.S. Saint, the 1927-D is pretty much like all the other regular business strike Saints.  The 1907 HR's and UHR's at least have unique designs and can be considered artistic coins.

If there had been more 1933 Saints legal to own in 2002, then Weitzman probably has zero interest in the 1933 Saint he bought.

mostly agree with ur assessments....'07uhr has more status than the '27-d, hence the eccentric non-collector buyers...plus very few saint collectors trying put together high grade complete registry sets....agree if had been 5-10 '33s on market stuart would not have bought one....but dont discount the true coin collectors that also like to buy unique or nearly unique items...i.e. confederate half dollars....i myself have owned some less than 5 known u.s. coins in areas i didnt collect, just to own them....

[GoldFinger1969]

22 minutes ago, zadok said:

07 UHR has more status than the '27-d, hence the eccentric non-collector buyers...plus very few saint collectors trying put together high grade complete registry sets...

I think every 1927-D is in the hands of a collector but some of the UHRs are known to NOT be in the hands of regular coin collectors.

That can be a problem because trophy coins like that won't be sold quickly by the original holders or their heirs...they hold on FOREVER (multiple decades) and don't feel any need to have them re-circulate into a collection or registry like Steve Duckor or David Akers or today's active collectors do.

Indeed, some of the locations of the UHRs aren't known because they have been so infrequently seen (see the CoinWEEK article).  Roger's book traces the lineage for all the known coins and many times it's a dead end to present location.

Edited April 17, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Inverted vs. Normal Lettering:  Finally got the answer, via Heritage commentary from their archives (Heritage and Roger colloborated on the book and their auction write-ups sometimes contain very useful information).

When a coin (like the UHR) is held on the edge with the obverse facing you, the words "E Pluribus Unum" are supposed to circle Liberty's head like a crown.  When the letters can be read in that position, it is NORMAL lettering -- though they will read upside-down if the coin is flat on a table with the Obverse UP.

Conversely, INVERTED lettering will read normal when the coin is flat on a table and Obverse Up -- but the letters are inverted if you try to read them when the coin is facing you with the obverse and you are holding it on edge.

I thought the lettering was in relation to being flat on a table -- it is not.  It's about the coin being held up to your face with the obverse.

Edited April 18, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting, according to Roger's Book/Heritage.... the coin owned by the Saint-Gaudens family had the Inverted Lettering, which some believe Charles Barber preferred but ASG did not (apparently he preferred Normal Edge lettering).   The coin last sold for $2,115,000 in 2015 after being off the market for almost 45 years.

Also interesting was that the UHRs must have had many people besides the coin collectors awaiting them because the price shot way above the $20 face value.  The Metropolitan Museum of Art exhibited one in 1908 and they had it insured for $1,000 at the time.  Regular High Reliefs traded up only to $35 or so after their release.

Of course, there were thousands of HR's but only 20 or so UHRs.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

I wonder if the higher prices paid for these UHRs are a function of the non-collector interest in them plus the fact that so many of the coins have been off the market for decades.  Many have been unable to be traced.

Years ago, coin collecting was mostly middle-aged to older people with $$$....they'd buy a coin and then once they tired of it, they'd sell it or let it re-circulate into new collections.  Today, with these buyers of NFS and other social media and digital billionaires.....they have the $$$ to buy these coins in their 20's and 30's.

If they do buy it, unless they want to sell it or get tired of it....it could be with them for 50-60 years or more ! 

Not sure other key date-like coins in other coin types generate the same interest, but if they are rare and famous, the same problem can happen if the buyer is very young or just lives to a very old age and they don't want to sell it.  But I don't think that's a concern with the special unique rarities among Franklins, Pennies, Nickels, etc.

Edited April 19, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

6 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I wonder if the higher prices paid for these UHRs are a function of the non-collector interest in them plus the fact that so many of the coins have been off the market for decades.  Many have been unable to be traced.

Years ago, coin collecting was mostly middle-aged to older people with $$$....they'd buy a coin and then once they tired of it, they'd sell it or let it re-circulate into new collections.  Today, with these buyers of NFS and other social media and digital billionaires.....they have the $$$ to buy these coins in their 20's and 30's.

If they do buy it, unless they want to sell it or get tired of it....it could be with them for 50-60 years or more ! 

Not sure other key date-like coins in other coin types generate the same interest, but if they are rare and famous, the same problem can happen if the buyer is very young or just lives to a very old age and they don't want to sell it.  But I don't think that's a concern with the special unique rarities among Franklins, Pennies, Nickels, etc.

couple observations n a question......yes the interest in key dates in other series,18th/19th century, exists, just not the notoriety nor the astronomical prices, with a few exceptions....as for the rarity of key dates in the 20th/21st century coins u mention, none r truly rare....u refer to this situation as a "problem".....wherein is the problem?...i dont see a problem if a rare coin is off the market for decades or is owned only by a few owners in its existence, so what?...i own key dates i bought 50+ years ago n have no intention of selling n hope my descendants feel the same way...who is to say those coins should go to another collection ever?....in many of the 19th century series, some coins r truly rare, 5 or less known (my definition of rarity) n some r "conditional rarities" n some become "appearance rarities"...it really becomes interesting when those terms describe the same coin....

[Henri Charriere]

@zadok   That's easy for you or I to say.  The coins we collected were real and attractive classics.  We've got "collectors" here wringing their hands, gnashing their teeth, and agonizing over machine parts with a useful life expectancy beyond which departures from the norm, however minute, are praised to the heavens and their often clad handiwork, bestowed with fancy names, commanding higher prices. 

In the two years I have been collecting Roosters, I do not recall a single instance where discernable differences in features between dates were treated as anything other than amusing oddities which did not merit payment of additional charges.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, zadok said:

u refer to this situation as a "problem".....wherein is the problem?...i dont see a problem if a rare coin is off the market for decades or is owned only by a few owners in its existence, so what?.

Zad, it's just nice to see special coins like the UHRs circulate every 10-15 years or so.....the earlier UHR sold in February was off the market for almost 50 years !  Thankfully, there's more than a few of the UHRs so one usually comes on the market ever few years or so.  But the UHR listings in RWB's SG DE book include some coins that they aren't even sure are existing coins or duplicates submitted over the decades.  One is ungraded and the other is a PF58.

1 hour ago, zadok said:

i own key dates i bought 50+ years ago n have no intention of selling n hope my descendants feel the same way...who is to say those coins should go to another collection ever?....in many of the 19th century series, some coins r truly rare, 5 or less known (my definition of rarity) n some r "conditional rarities" n some become "appearance rarities"...it really becomes interesting when those terms describe the same coin....

I get where are you are coming from, but imagine the 1933 Saint being sold in 2 months not being sold again for 50 years because some young whippersnapper buys it who's in his early-30's.  Lots of publicity for the coin itself and the hobby will be generated when the 1933 Saint gets sold at Sotheby's.  

Now imagine the coin doesn't get sold again until 2067....46 years......uggh. 

[zadok]

18 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Zad, it's just nice to see special coins like the UHRs circulate every 10-15 years or so.....the earlier UHR sold in February was off the market for almost 50 years !  Thankfully, there's more than a few of the UHRs so one usually comes on the market ever few years or so.  But the UHR listings in RWB's SG DE book include some coins that they aren't even sure are existing coins or duplicates submitted over the decades.  One is ungraded and the other is a PF58.

I get where are you are coming from, but imagine the 1933 Saint being sold in 2 months not being sold again for 50 years because some young whippersnapper buys it who's in his early-30's.  Lots of publicity for the coin itself and the hobby will be generated when the 1933 Saint gets sold at Sotheby's.  

Now imagine the coin doesn't get sold again until 2067....46 years......uggh. 

i dont see any problems with limited owners nor infrequent appearances......nice?....i for one never considered nice as any part of my reasons for entering numismatics or for assembling any of my collections....sharing information is one thing, sharing coins is quite another....if my family happens to keep certain coins off the market for 100+ years so be it....the coin still exists its rarity still intact.....every owner has to make his/her own determinations.....virtually every truly great american collection in the past century was broken up by a descendant of the original collector....obviously those descendants didnt possess the same fervor as their ancestor did.....

[GoldFinger1969]

Zad, please don't misconstrue what I said:  I would certainly never say that anybody was OBLIGATED to sell a coin they liked and enjoyed.  I am talking more about someone who isn't a coin collector and not concerned with the hobby hoarding the coin or coins and then nobody being able to enjoy them AND the publicity of a sale or auction not taking place.

In the case of the UHRs, there are close to 20 of them, so 1 or 2 being off the market for decades hurts but isn't fatal.  OTOH, I would hate for the 1933 Saint to be off the market for another 18 years especially if not owned by a collector.  However.....

Kudos and thanks to Stuart Weitzman for at least making the coin viewable by the general public.  That was a classy move and I applaud him for that.

While reading Roger's and Bowers' Double Eagle books I was stuck by how many coins were sold and re-sold over the decades.  And if you read the HA texts that accompany auctions in their archives, you'll see comments from David Akers talking about how he and other collectors like Steve Duckor would sell coins that they had and sometimes replace them with lower-graded coins, just to help out other collectors or to let the coins go into a registry set.

Edited April 21, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

12 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Zad, please don't misconstrue what I said:  I would certainly never say that anybody was OBLIGATED to sell a coin they liked and enjoyed.  I am talking more about someone who isn't a coin collector and not concerned with the hobby hoarding the coin or coins and then nobody being able to enjoy them AND the publicity of a sale or auction not taking place.

In the case of the UHRs, there are close to 20 of them, so 1 or 2 being off the market for decades hurts but isn't fatal.  OTOH, I would hate for the 1933 Saint to be off the market for another 18 years especially if not owned by a collector.  However.....

Kudos and thanks to Stuart Weitzman for at least making the coin viewable by the general public.  That was a classy move and I applaud him for that.

While reading Roger's and Bowers' Double Eagle books I was stuck by how many coins were sold and re-sold over the decades.  And if you read the HA texts that accompany auctions in their archives, you'll see comments from David Akers talking about how he and other collectors like Steve Duckor would sell coins that they had and sometimes replace them with lower-graded coins, just to help out other collectors or to let the coins go into a registry set.

no misconstruction at all....just a discussion of philosophies...i do not feel any obligation to sell any item out of any of my collections at any time, certainly not for the reason just so someone else can own it for their collection, if other collectors have done so thats their choice...personally im not into the publicity nor notoriety that accompanies the sale of rarities, let the best man/woman win...nor does it bother me if a non-collector buys a rarity, regardless of who buys what for whatever reason that item is off the market till the new owner decides they dont want it anymore...as previously mentioned, i have bought n still own coins from collections ( eliasberg, garrett, norweb, atwater, brand, hawn, menjou, dupont, bareford, merkin, cox, blauvelt, miles, bass et al ) n have no intention of ever selling them, some were off the market for up to 85 years before i bought them n some i have owned since the late '70s, they have to be somewhere mite as well be in my collection, fortunately two of my six children collect coins as well, guess which kids will inherit my coins?...the point being, regardless of who owns the coins the coins r not diminished, their rarity survives...thats not to say that i believe rare coins should be secreted away in vaults never to be seen again, i have on numerous occasions displayed portions of my collections at club, regional n national coin displays, i have even donated items to collections ( ana, smithsonian ) , items that were better suited for public displays etc....im not sure u fully understand my opinions on this based on ur areas of numismatic interests, saints (few collectors) n morgans ( no true rarities) , but if u ever venture into series where true rarities abound u mite see things a bit differently...sure there will be excitement when stuart's '33 sells, for a short while, but it wont impact numismatics whether a collector or a non-collector buys it....for now we can just agree to disagree, im sure there r other aspects of collecting that we do agree upon....

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/19/2021 at 6:16 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Now imagine the coin doesn't get sold again until 2067....46 years......uggh. 

[Judge:  I hereby sentence you to 25 years for.... an additional 15 years for.... and 6 years for.... said sentences to run, consecutively.

Prisoner:  25, 15 and 6?  Forty-six years?  I can't do no 46 years!  I'm 53 now!

Judge:  Just do the best you can.  Bailiff, call the next case.]

[Hoghead515]

Hopefully one of these days I can meet you all at a coin show somewhere. I can't wait to go to one and see all the rare coin displays. I'm very excited just thinking about it. Never have been. I've seen nice rare coins on the internet but I want to see them in real life and discuss some with the other collectors and numismatic scholars.  I truly would love that. I think im gonna find me another rather, or possum hole, in the wall and start stuffing it a little here and there. That way when I do get to go I'd love to bring home a souvenir. Then I can tell my grandkids I got that coin at so and so show.  Tell em I was sitting there loafing with zadok or goldfinger or whoever and looked down and there she was. I'd just love to add some kind of memory like that to my collection and can share it with my children and grandchildren.  And then maybe they can pass it down to they're children or whoever. And tell them about the story of old grandpa scoring that coin.   The story don't have to go exactly like that. Just an example.  I can't wait to go learn some history and admire some of the finest coins in the world and maybe bring some kind of nice example home. I love making good memories. You all probably think im weird now after saying all that. Lol.  I just enjoy things like that. 

[zadok]

42 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Judge:  I hereby sentence you to 25 years for.... an additional 15 years for.... and 6 years for.... said sentences to run, consecutively.

Prisoner:  25, 15 and 6?  Forty-six years?  I can't do no 46 years!  I'm 53 now!

Judge:  Just do the best you can.  Bailiff, call the next case.]

thats life...

[zadok]

14 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Hopefully one of these days I can meet you all at a coin show somewhere. I can't wait to go to one and see all the rare coin displays. I'm very excited just thinking about it. Never have been. I've seen nice rare coins on the internet but I want to see them in real life and discuss some with the other collectors and numismatic scholars.  I truly would love that. I think im gonna find me another rather, or possum hole, in the wall and start stuffing it a little here and there. That way when I do get to go I'd love to bring home a souvenir. Then I can tell my grandkids I got that coin at so and so show.  Tell em I was sitting there loafing with zadok or goldfinger or whoever and looked down and there she was. I'd just love to add some kind of memory like that to my collection and can share it with my children and grandchildren.  And then maybe they can pass it down to they're children or whoever. And tell them about the story of old grandpa scoring that coin.   The story don't have to go exactly like that. Just an example.  I can't wait to go learn some history and admire some of the finest coins in the world and maybe bring some kind of nice example home. I love making good memories. You all probably think im weird now after saying all that. Lol.  I just enjoy things like that. 

there i was at the cincinnati zoo just loafin' round with hoghead n he saw that '94-s barber dime just laying there in the lion pit n jumped over the wall n scored that souvenir, n i can just hear him telling his grankids how he got that coin n lost his arm all at the same time....or was it the poisonous snake pit?.....maybe was the chipmunk cage?....

[Hoghead515]

2 minutes ago, zadok said:

there i was at the cincinnati zoo just loafin' round with hoghead n he saw that '94-s barber dime just laying there in the lion pit n jumped over the wall n scored that souvenir, n i can just hear him telling his grankids how he got that coin n lost his arm all at the same time....or was it the poisonous snake pit?.....maybe was the chipmunk cage?....

That sounds like the perfect story. 

[Henri Charriere]

4 hours ago, zadok said:

...i do not feel any obligation to sell any item out of any of my collections at any time,.... 

Every man (collector) has his price, or so the saying goes.  Rhetorically speaking, is it possible you have not been made an offer you cannot refuse?

[GoldFinger1969]

4 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

Hopefully one of these days I can meet you all at a coin show somewhere. I can't wait to go to one and see all the rare coin displays. I'm very excited just thinking about it. Never have been. I've seen nice rare coins on the internet but I want to see them in real life and discuss some with the other collectors and numismatic scholars.  I truly would love that.

If you live in Eastern KY, I suspect there are some 1-day local coin shows somewhere close to you.  Or maybe in one of the bigger cities.  Maybe even Cincy ?

For me, the show to go to -- just went to my first one in 2020 -- would be the FUN show in January 2022.  Probably some of the NGC folks here will be there and folks from CT too (probably ALL the coin forums ).   600 dealers....workshops....lectures....costs money to get there and stay there but it's a blast.  I took the train from NY last year and then flew back.

4 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

I can't wait to go learn some history and admire some of the finest coins in the world and maybe bring some kind of nice example home. I love making good memories. You all probably think im weird now after saying all that. Lol.  I just enjoy things like that. 

Not at all.  Hey, we can't take these coins with us when we pass on and we don't know if they'll appreciate or what when we own them.  So it's all about learning the history associated with our coins and enjoying them..

[GoldFinger1969]

26 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Every man (collector) has his price, or so the saying goes.  Rhetorically speaking, is it possible you have not been made an offer you cannot refuse?

Are you saying Don Corleone is a coin collector ? 

[Hoghead515]

2 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you live in Eastern KY, I suspect there are some 1-day local coin shows somewhere close to you.  Or maybe in one of the bigger cities.  Maybe even Cincy ?

For me, the show to go to -- just went to my first one in 2020 -- would be the FUN show in January 2022.  Probably some of the NGC folks here will be there and folks from CT too (probably ALL the coin forums ).   600 dealers....workshops....lectures....costs money to get there and stay there but it's a blast.  I took the train from NY last year and then flew back.

Not at all.  Hey, we can't take these coins with us when we pass on and we don't know if they'll appreciate or what when we own them.  So it's all about learning the history associated with our coins and enjoying them..

I may have to try and get in on the FUN show next year. That give me time to stuff that possum hole in the floor full of money. 

[zadok]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Every man (collector) has his price, or so the saying goes.  Rhetorically speaking, is it possible you have not been made an offer you cannot refuse?

somethings just r not for sale....just as there is buyers remorse there is sellers remorse....the former u can recover from the latter maybe not.....

[zadok]

2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you live in Eastern KY, I suspect there are some 1-day local coin shows somewhere close to you.  Or maybe in one of the bigger cities.  Maybe even Cincy ?

For me, the show to go to -- just went to my first one in 2020 -- would be the FUN show in January 2022.  Probably some of the NGC folks here will be there and folks from CT too (probably ALL the coin forums ).   600 dealers....workshops....lectures....costs money to get there and stay there but it's a blast.  I took the train from NY last year and then flew back.

Not at all.  Hey, we can't take these coins with us when we pass on and we don't know if they'll appreciate or what when we own them.  So it's all about learning the history associated with our coins and enjoying them..

unfortunately for hoghead hes more or less in a numismatic wasteland, almost nothing as far as decent coin shows close to him....as u mentioned a few one day local club shows, maybe 20 dealers or so, even the bigger cities near him, cincy, memphis, nashville etc the shows r very small sometimes 30-40 dealers...there r a scant few like pittsburg, columbus oh where sometimes 80-100 dealers but long drive to n fro for him....yea the big shows, fun, ana, baltimore, nyc, chicago, colo sprgs would be great for him, u just have to spend so much money on getting there, staying there that eats up all ur coin money....maybe one these days the ana show will be close to one his new cat fishing bffs he has met here on the forum n he can score some coins n flatheads all in one trip....the one silver lining is even those small one day shows will prob have the areas that he collects, wash qrts, buff nickels etc, those r at almost all shows ......

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

I may have to try and get in on the FUN show next year. That give me time to stuff that possum hole in the floor full of money. 

If you do, we'll all be getting together.  Scan the hotels and airfare or other transportation if you are flying or taking the train or bus or whatever.  Some folks book months in advance, get good rates.

Hotels aren't cheap there, but you can get early discounts.  I want to stay in the same hotel next time as the CT and NGC folks....I booked another hotel about 3/4 mile up the road and basically I couldn't hang with the guys in the hotel (it was also closer to the show).

There's also different Convention Centers in the Orlando area right near one another, make sure you know where your hotel is in relation to the center. 

[zadok]

2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you live in Eastern KY, I suspect there are some 1-day local coin shows somewhere close to you.  Or maybe in one of the bigger cities.  Maybe even Cincy ?

For me, the show to go to -- just went to my first one in 2020 -- would be the FUN show in January 2022.  Probably some of the NGC folks here will be there and folks from CT too (probably ALL the coin forums ).   600 dealers....workshops....lectures....costs money to get there and stay there but it's a blast.  I took the train from NY last year and then flew back.

Not at all.  Hey, we can't take these coins with us when we pass on and we don't know if they'll appreciate or what when we own them.  So it's all about learning the history associated with our coins and enjoying them..

learning the history n enjoying the coins....agree with u both there, thats what makes the hobby what it is, that n the challenge of assembling something or trying to complete something...provides an escape from everyday life....as for owning the coins, do we ever own anything really?...id say we r just caretakers n custodians....

[GoldFinger1969]

Looks like Summer FUN 2021 is on....I thought it was cancelled.

[Hoghead515]

I enjoy any kind of history like that. Anytime we was ever out somewhere and passed a museum of any kind I had to stop. There's nothing like actually getting to look at old pieces of history right there in front of you. Now that I'm into this hobby I'd love to check out alot of the earlier coins they struck when they were fist trying to establish a mint. One of these days I'm planning on taking a trip to the Smithsonian also.  That would be so much fun.  From every thing I've read up on these shows are a blast too.  And the members on here seem to have a blast when they go. I'll make it to one one of these days.