Die Deterioration or Separate Dies 0

[John5123]

I am a collector of 1933-34 Century of Progress Exposition so-called dollars. General Italo Balbo of Italy made a fight of a squadron of 24 seaplanes from Rome to the Fair in Chicago. There was a so-called dollar sold at the Italian Pavilion commemorating the flight. It is listed in Hibler and Kaplans (HK) so-called dollar HK-471a. There were 24 planes in Balbo's squadron. HK identifies the medal with 20 planes and the picture shows a die crack from 1 o'clock to 3 o'clock about 5mm from the edge.  However there is a variety with the full 24 planes (4 more at the 3 o'clock position ) and just the hint of the beginning of a die crack from 2 o'clock to 3 o'clock about 5mm from the edge. Does this sound like two varieties from two different dies, one with 20 planes and one with 24? Or, the same die that deteriorated over time (i.e. die crack grew and the last 4 planes wore down too much from strikes and were eventually polished out)? Seeking opinions.

[Crawtomatic]

Interesting.  I see the airplanes have quite a bit of loss of definition on the 20p version but the steps, building marquee, and (especially) the engraver name appear to be fine.  In hand, how do those details compare?  Possibly re-engraved?

[John5123]

The 20 plane variety pictured is an NGC MS64 and the 24 plane variety is an NGC MS66. In hand under a 5x there is a deterioration of the planes definition. The building looks the same in both. I just looked at Heritage Auctions history and there were 4 sold, all 20 plane variety. Two were graded MS66 (with die crack) , but the deterioration of the planes strike was as bad or worse than this picture. I guess that particular attribute is not a primary concern for the graders. The other two 20 plane medals at HA were MS63 (one with die crack one without). Both with weaker strik all around than  the MS64 pictured here.

[Just Bob]

I can see enough differences in the two obverses to call them two different dies.

What do the reverses look like?

Edited December 17, 2020 by Just Bob

[Fenntucky Mike]

Differences in the planes, building, lettering, etc.. Looks like a do over.

Awesome examples, I hadn't seen these before. I'm going to have to check out the rest of the expo's offerings. 

[Conder101]

Definitely look like different dies, but I wonder if they didn't use the cracked 20 plane die to make a new hub and a new die from that.  Then strengthened the planes and added the other 4.

[RWB]

Did four of the aircraft fall into the die crack and come out in the "Bermuda Triangle" - or at least at Nathan's on Coney Island?

[John5123]

The last two pictures were of the reverse.

Here is the 20 plane obverse (black toning mark at 11 o'clock.

 

And the 24 plane obverse.

 

Same die or different?

 

 

[John5123]

This is for Kentucky Mike. Hibler and Kaplan only catalogued 20 medals associated with the Century of Progress Expo. Nathan Eglit catalogued about 200 in the Token and Medal Society Journal, Volume V, August-October 1965, Number 4. Here is the web address for an online copy. archive.org/stream/journaloftokenme5n04toke#page/116/mode/2up

[Henri Charriere]

2 hours ago, RWB said:

Did four of the aircraft fall into the die crack and come out in the "Bermuda Triangle" - or at least at Nathan's on Coney Island?

[Couldn't be "Flight 19." That was five planes back in '45.  You certainly have a delicious sense of humor!]

[Fenntucky Mike]

7 minutes ago, John5123 said:

This is for Kentucky Mike. Hibler and Kaplan only catalogued 20 medals associated with the Century of Progress Expo. Nathan Eglit catalogued about 200 in the Token and Medal Society Journal, Volume V, August-October 1965, Number 4. Here is the web address for an online copy. archive.org/stream/journaloftokenme5n04toke#page/116/mode/2up

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Reverse looks closer. It's kind of opposite, the 20 reverse looks crisper, while the 24 obverse looked to be the cleaner of the two. Lettering seems beefed up on the 24 rev along with the addition of the rays from the torch, the figure on the left looks like he sprouted toes. Everything else seems to line up pretty good. I don't know, I'll say different for arguments sake but I feel like I could explain away some of those things but I don't know enough to be sure. Someone else will have a more definitive answer. Thanks for sharing.