Another saint die question (sleeping Liberty) 1 1

[Cat Bath]

I've seen this eyes closed appearance on Liberty many dates & many coins.

Recently, I noticed the localized doubling of the B & sometimes the E above her head.

This is not to be confused with the "Neanderthal" like pronounced brow ridge / smooshed forehead that I believe is something else.

At first I thought it was an eroded or filled die but I don't think that is correct now.

 

I'll try to find more examples.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Cat Bath

[Cat Bath]

Sometimes the doubling is almost nonexistent in the letters.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Cat Bath

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting....good catch....I'll have to see if Roger covers this in the book.

[RWB]

Check to see of the obverse dies are the same. If they are, then the effect is due to press mechanics - which is likely.

[RWB]

Double eagles were subject to the same range of mechanical and die defects as silver dollars. They used the same presses and similar pressures per square inch. DE dies seem to have been pulled earlier than silver dollar dies.

[GoldFinger1969]

11 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

I've seen this eyes closed appearance on Liberty many dates & many coins......This is not to be confused with the "Neanderthal" like pronounced brow ridge / smooshed forehead that I believe is something else.

I just assumed those were bag dings that hit a very sensitive area -- the face.

No ? 

[Cat Bath]

Here is a 'Full Klingon'. I have only seen about 1/2 dozen of these & I don't think they are PMD. (various years)

Not sure what could cause it.

I found a couple more sleepers but I'm out of download allowance.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Cat Bath

[GoldFinger1969]

What's PMD ?

Never heard of the "Full Klingon" description before. 

[Cat Bath]

11 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

What's PMD ?

Never heard of the "Full Klingon" description before. 

PMD= Post Mint Damage.

I'm looking for a better term for what happened to her head.

I think it's a 66 but I wouldn't want it....

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Cat Bath

[VKurtB]

“Full Klingon” 

“I don’t care who y’are, that there’s funny.”

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/10/2020 at 12:42 PM, RWB said:

Double eagles were subject to the same range of mechanical and die defects as silver dollars. They used the same presses and similar pressures per square inch. DE dies seem to have been pulled earlier than silver dollar dies.

Could you give us some examples of these die defects and mechanical issues ?

Also....am I correct that when striking coins in general -- Saints in particular -- that the reverse and obverse are struck at the same time and that sometimes imperfections or striking forces can "bleed into" the other side ?  I think you mentioned this once or twice but not in great detail in your book.  Maybe it's covered more in FMTM.

[RWB]

All working dies are subject to the same range of possible defects: cracking, partial collapse, chipping, spalling, shattering in addition to setup and press defects. Larger dies - silver dollars, double eagles - have larger areas and show more problems than small coins.

"Bleed through" is very unusual on most US coins. The most commonly seen are SL quarters which were described by Morgan as having the obverse shield show on the reverse.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

All working dies are subject to the same range of possible defects: cracking, partial collapse, chipping, spalling, shattering in addition to setup and press defects. Larger dies - silver dollars, double eagles - have larger areas and show more problems than small coins.

My guess is today they don't need quite as much striking force and the dies are constructed of better-quality steel, hardened more with additives.  And they probably change them more often.

Net-net, those problems much less prevalent today.

1 hour ago, RWB said:

"Bleed through" is very unusual on most US coins. The most commonly seen are SL quarters which were described by Morgan as having the obverse shield show on the reverse.

Probably because they were thinner coins, I wager.

Thanks, Roger.

Edited November 12, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

RE: "Probably because they were thinner coins, I wager."

The nearly full-diameter obverse used a lot of metal, and placement of the eagle's body opposite Liberty's head forced metal away from the area above the wings. Bottom line: the design was unsuitable for such a small coin and there was not enough metal available to routinely fill the dies.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

RE: "Probably because they were thinner coins, I wager."

The nearly full-diameter obverse used a lot of metal, and placement of the eagle's body opposite Liberty's head forced metal away from the area above the wings. Bottom line: the design was unsuitable for such a small coin and there was not enough metal available to routinely fill the dies.

Fascinating....so depending on the size of the coin and relief and the surfaces/fields/devices....some designs were just impractical for striking.

[VKurtB]

11 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Fascinating....so depending on the size of the coin and relief and the surfaces/fields/devices....some designs were just impractical for striking.

Absolutely so. That’s the kind of thing one learns at ANA convention talks, but seldom on discussion boards. Occasionally, as at Rosemont in 2019, the designers from the US Mint even give such talks. Pardon me, but I am a HUUUUUGE critic of Internet numismatics and an even “huger” fan of going to major coin shows. It’s a place to learn, rather than to shop.

I can’t tell you how often I’ve learned even strictly “inside” information at ANA shows, but when I refer to them later online, the ‘Net Ninnies all ask for a link. The link is often ME. I’ve worked a little less than half my working life in government. Less than 10% of important stuff EVER goes online. And included in that is the documentation of how ballots REALLY are counted. Berks County, PA Election Director, 2001-2005. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by VKurtB