Quiz: Why is COLOR important for authentication? 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

27 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

... photos on this thread are among the worst I have ever seen anywhere in terms of calibrated color. 

Alright then, let's pretend you're back in court. You've been sworn in and reminded you're still under oath...

Now, sir!  You've been shown two pieces of evidence.  Would you now tell the court the numbers, if any, as displayed in Exhibits A and B, respectively.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Quintus Arrius
Insertion of apostrophe

[VKurtB]

So a guy who has worked for numerous TPGS uses fluorescent lights? /Shaking My Head. This is the way to lose any confidence I ever had. 

[Insider]

46 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

That explains way more than I even realized. Do you even know the science of color, sir? I do. It was my life for over 30 years. I gave a Money Talk at an ANA convention in Chicagoland on what photographic science can teach us about toned coins. 

How about posting some tips here!

 

28 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

They do not show on my cheap old phone, but are clear as day on my wife’s newer one and my computer monitor. Those who are literate can determine that from the above. 
 

Color is not uniform. It all depends on the choices of inks and dyes in the printed page, and the choices of color devices in additive color such as screens.

Skip’s photos on this thread are among the worst I have ever seen anywhere in terms of calibrated color. I mean cripes, if you’re going to ask about why color is important, shouldn’t you have the obligation to get your photos to some semblance of correct color? On this, @RWB is spot on. 

Agree!  But better than this:

 

[VKurtB]

18 minutes ago, Insider said:

How about posting some tips here!

 

Agree!  But better than this:

 

How does this even happen? Is she the Wicked Liberty of the West, or what? “And your little dog too.”

Edited September 1, 2020 by VKurtB

[Insider]

One BIG difference  with this forum and another forum (besides the lack of traffic except for a half dozen posters) is this:  

Some numismatists here (who could add a lot to our discussions) RIGHTFULLY complain about things like poor images; yet cannot be bothered to respond to a simple question.  IMHO, it would be more useful for all of us if they would go back to writing/research or talking a walk.  Forums are not a popularity contest.  If folks have not guessed that I am not here to make friends, I'll say it now.  I'm not here to make friends or enhance /ruin  my reputation.  The ONLY reason I'm posting here so much is I'm banned from one more active and I'm making an attempt to get this lame site used by more than a very few posters + I like to argue, bait, tease, frustrate, ruffle, ...

As for florescent light... folks need to get educated.    An article was just published in Numismatic News. 

Check it out: Florescent Light: No Flaw can hide.

 

[Insider]

9 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

How does this even happen? Is she the Wicked Liberty of the West, or what? “And your little dog too.”

PVC damage + altered image just for you. 

[Alex in PA.]

Ah Quintus, I have seen the light.  So gentlemen, please feel free to carry on.  Or carry over or carry out or even carry me back to old Virginnie.

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

One BIG difference  with this forum and another forum (besides the lack of traffic except for a half dozen posters) is this:  

Some numismatists here (who could add a lot to our discussions) RIGHTFULLY complain about things like poor images; yet cannot be bothered to respond to a simple question.  IMHO, it would be more useful for all of us if they would go back to writing/research or talking a walk.  Forums are not a popularity contest.  If folks have not guessed that I am not here to make friends, I'll say it now.  I'm not here to make friends or enhance /ruin  my reputation.  The ONLY reason I'm posting here so much is I'm banned from one more active and I'm making an attempt to get this lame site used by more than a very few posters + I like to argue, bait, tease, frustrate, ruffle, ...

As for florescent light... folks need to get educated.    An article was just published in Numismatic News. 

Check it out: Florescent Light: No Flaw can hide.

 

What? No link?

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Alright then, let's pretend you're back in court. You've been sworn in and reminded you're still under oath...

Now, sir!  You've been shown two pieces of evidence.  Would you now tell the court the numbers, if any, as displayed in Exhibits A and B, respectively.

Okay, smarta$$, what we have here is another dishonest “gotcha” attempt by a dishonest person trying to play games. Exhibit A, the magenta one, WOULD be a 6, IF it were an honest Ichihara plate, which it is not. It is a representation of what a colorblind person would see in not seeing the 6. Similarly, Exhibit B is a similar “colorblind version” of Ichihara Plate #2, I believe, one of the most severe color blindness ones, in which nearly everyone easily sees the 8 that is present on the honest Ichihara Plate #2, but is missing on this representation of what a profoundly colorblind person would see on Plate #2, except for what can be seen just from dot placement. 
 

Now, just who in the hell do you think you’re messing with here, sir?

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

One BIG difference  with this forum and another forum (besides the lack of traffic except for a half dozen posters) is this:  

Some numismatists here (who could add a lot to our discussions) RIGHTFULLY complain about things like poor images; yet cannot be bothered to respond to a simple question.  IMHO, it would be more useful for all of us if they would go back to writing/research or talking a walk.  Forums are not a popularity contest.  If folks have not guessed that I am not here to make friends, I'll say it now.  I'm not here to make friends or enhance /ruin  my reputation.  The ONLY reason I'm posting here so much is I'm banned from one more active and I'm making an attempt to get this lame site used by more than a very few posters + I like to argue, bait, tease, frustrate, ruffle, ...

As for florescent light... folks need to get educated.    An article was just published in Numismatic News. 

Check it out: Florescent Light: No Flaw can hide.

 

Gee, self-promote much? You see, the author of the piece in Numismatic News and our friend @Insider are one and the same person. Not good intellectually good form - using yourself as a source. Can’t say I’m surprised, though. Strict standards of intellectual honesty are not often a hallmark of scholarly writing in numismatics.

Edited September 1, 2020 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

28 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Now, just who in the hell do you think you’re messing with here, sir?

DEFENSE:  Your Honor, I submit my client has answered all questions asked of him satisfactorily.

AUSA:  No further questions, your Honor.

THE COURT:  You may step down, sir.   Adjournment in contemplation of dismissal.  Bailiff, call the next case...

Docket 20-Civ-13735 (VKB)  UNITED STATES OF AMERICA versus BRIAN SILLIMAN. . .

Edited September 1, 2020 by Quintus Arrius
Add/Delete word.

[VKurtB]

Here is the straight poop on fluorescent lights. They use an emission spectrum that is caused by electrically exciting a gas in a tube. An emission spectrum is one that creates light in extraordinarily few wavelengths, also known as colors. It takes careful mixing of the gases in the tube to emulate a full spectrum. But it can only ever be an emulation. Only a heated solid, aka an incandescent light, can yield a continuous spectrum, or one in which most wavelengths/colors are present. Remember a thing called “white hot”? Yeahhhh. That’s one in which the filament, (or ingot or whatever) is heated to a temperature similar to the surface of the sun, or about 5,000 degrees Kelvin. As you can imagine, this uses electricity, a bunch of it. Green New Deal ideologues are attempting to ban incandescent lights, the gold standard for examining color, and leaving us with only inferior fluorescents instead. We need to either 1) fight back HARD against incandescent bulb bans, or 2) establish a brand new numismatic standard to replace the current one - the increasingly difficult to purchase 100 watt incandescent bulb. No one is taking the need for either one seriously enough at all. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/31/2020 at 2:23 PM, RWB said:

The photo looks too green - as if it were taken under fluorescent light. One cannot get accurate color using fluorescent lights - the spectrum is incomplete and highly concentrated in the green band. I don't see any lead gray color. What am I missing?

Read this again, people. It is correct. Most fluorescent lights are very heavy in the green wavelengths. The other kind, often seen in parking lots, is the sodium vapor fluorescent light, which has sodium’s two bright emission lines on the yellow to orange wavelengths. The next time you fly at night, look at the ground. Orange = sodium vapor. Greenish = mercury vapor. That’s what you’re seeing. Low power fluorescents are overwhelmingly mercury vapor.

[Henri Charriere]

56 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Okay, smarta$$, what we have here is another dishonest “gotcha” attempt by a dishonest person trying to play games. Exhibit A, the magenta one, WOULD be a 6, IF it were an honest Ichihara plate, which it is not. It is a representation of what a colorblind person would see in not seeing the 6. Similarly, Exhibit B is a similar “colorblind version” of Ichihara Plate #2, I believe, one of the most severe color blindness ones, in which nearly everyone easily sees the 8 that is present on the honest Ichihara Plate #2, but is missing on this representation of what a profoundly colorblind person would see on Plate #2, except for what can be seen just from dot placement. 
 

Now, just who in the hell do you think you’re messing with here, sir?

[Just got off the wire with my old friend Moishe Ichihara who categorically denies tampering with any of the tectonic plates bedeviling Chiba Prefecture in Japan, either by clandestine fracking, or otherwise. He has, however, implored me to stop pushing VKurtB's buttons -- and pointedly reminded me it's not even Labor Day yet!]

[Insider]

Copper metal has certain shades but silver-gray is not one of them.  Usually, it indicates the coin should be authenticated as electrotypes and copper plated base metal counterfeits can both show this characteristic. When you see this color, the first thing to check is if it is on the surface or into the surface.  What could cause it?

1. Very rarely, paint or a surface residue. 

2. More commonly some type of plating.   Some of you have had this happen w/o electricity when you put a copper coin into some very old dip. 

3. Rarely, contact w/solder.  That was the case in the OP.   The gray color was on the surface.  Nevertheless, someone wanted to make sure the coin was genuine and drilled into its surface.  

4.  Counterfeits that have a base metal core as in the second image will show the gray color in places where the copper surface has been worn away, pealed off or damaged. 

Did any of you see the deep scratch along the relief of the coin in the OP? 

[Insider]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Gee, self-promote much? You see, the author of the piece in Numismatic News and our friend @Insider are one and the same person. Not good intellectually good form - using yourself as a source. Can’t say I’m surprised, though. Strict standards of intellectual honesty are not often a hallmark of scholarly writing in numismatics.

You can lead a donkey to water but... 

 

[Insider]

57 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Here is the straight poop on fluorescent lights. They use an emission spectrum that is caused by electrically exciting a gas in a tube. An emission spectrum is one that creates light in extraordinarily few wavelengths, also known as colors. It takes careful mixing of the gases in the tube to emulate a full spectrum. But it can only ever be an emulation. Only a heated solid, aka an incandescent light, can yield a continuous spectrum, or one in which most wavelengths/colors are present. Remember a thing called “white hot”? Yeahhhh. That’s one in which the filament, (or ingot or whatever) is heated to a temperature similar to the surface of the sun, or about 5,000 degrees Kelvin. As you can imagine, this uses electricity, a bunch of it. Green New Deal ideologues are attempting to ban incandescent lights, the gold standard for examining color, and leaving us with only inferior fluorescents instead. We need to either 1) fight back HARD against incandescent bulb bans, or 2) establish a brand new numismatic standard to replace the current one - the increasingly difficult to purchase 100 watt incandescent bulb. No one is taking the need for either one seriously enough at all. 

Thanks for posting the poop.  IMO, the only thing relevant to the thread is your call to save incandescent bulbs.  Good Luck.

As for florescent lighting used for coin exam, I'll post this v.short version of a true story:

Famous authority on particular coin series comes to PCI table at major show with MS-66 blazing white gem he just bought.  I looked at the coin in florescent light and told him it was an AU.  Then I brought him behind the table to look for himself.  He agreed. That night, he bought a florescent light to use the next day.   

Folks who know what they are talking about are the ones worth listening to.  That is not self-promotion,  it's a fact.  .    

 

[Moxie15]

I have never failed a color blindness test until this. and I have no earthly idea how to calibrate color on a computer, so I guess I am blind and stupid

[RWB]

This tidbit might help a little to visualize the difference between daylight (the standard is 5500K) and typical low pressure fluorescent. Back when people used color film the differences were much more pronounced than with modern digital "corrections." If you used daylight film in an office lit by fluorescent, everything had a nasty greenish cast -- kind of like puke on olive drab Army fatigues.

Metamerism
Both sunlight and fluorescent lighting appear white, even though they have very different spectral distributions. This is due to our trichromatic receptors. Even though light may be composed of different spectra, if it creates the same response in our eyes it will be perceived as the same color. Two different spectra that are perceived the same are called metamers.

Tip: This is why colors should always be viewed in controlled lighting. Colors may match perfectly under one light source, and not at all under another.

[https://www.prismtechgraphics.com/blog/science-of-colour-colour-perception]

Edited September 2, 2020 by RWB

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

This tidbit might help a little to visualize the difference between daylight (the standard is 5500K) and typical low pressure fluorescent. Back when people used color film the differences were much more pronounced than with modern digital "corrections." If you used daylight film in an office lit by fluorescent, everything had a nasty greenish cast -- kind of like puke on olive drab Army fatigues.

Metamerism
Both sunlight and fluorescent lighting appear white, even though they have very different spectral distributions. This is due to our trichromatic receptors. Even though light may be composed of different spectra, if it creates the same response in our eyes it will be perceived as the same color. Two different spectra that are perceived the same are called metamers.

Tip: This is why colors should always be viewed in controlled lighting. Colors may match perfectly under one light source, and not at all under another.

[https://www.prismtechgraphics.com/blog/science-of-colour-colour-perception]

Outstanding. The only addition is that incandescent lights are similar to sunlight above, except most, other than really really expensive and very hot ones, are shifted toward the red. Type B Ektachrome Film was balanced for 3200 Kelvin lamps and Type A Kodachrome 40 was balanced for 3400 Kelvin lamps. Color balance filters were used for film/lamp mismatches, particularly the 80A and 80B for daylight films with flood lamps, and even the 81A for matching 3400 lamps to Type B film. 82A did the same for Type A Kodachrome with 3200 Kelvin lamps. There was/is no equivalent filter to correct from fluorescent lamps to daylight film, or to a digital camera set to daylight color balance. There is a kinda sorta near compromise, though, the FL-D used with daylight film and mercury vapor tubes.

Edited September 2, 2020 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

3 hours ago, Insider said:

Thanks for posting the poop.  IMO, the only thing relevant to the thread is your call to save incandescent bulbs.  Good Luck.

As for florescent lighting used for coin exam, I'll post this v.short version of a true story:

Famous authority on particular coin series comes to PCI table at major show with MS-66 blazing white gem he just bought.  I looked at the coin in florescent light and told him it was an AU.  Then I brought him behind the table to look for himself.  He agreed. That night, he bought a florescent light to use the next day.   

Folks who know what they are talking about are the ones worth listening to.  That is not self-promotion,  it's a fact.  .    

 

What do you propose is the reason that a fluorescent lamp would have such wonderful capabilities of better revealing wear? I mean what is the physics reason? I am aware of no such science, but you have piqued my curiosity. 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Moxie15 said:

I have never failed a color blindness test until this. and I have no earthly idea how to calibrate color on a computer, so I guess I am blind and stupid

You didn’t fail this one either, trust me. The so-called test targets were completely bogus, a con job. Trying to con people is becoming the unofficial official sport on this board. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by VKurtB

[Insider]

14 hours ago, VKurtB said:

What do you propose is the reason that a fluorescent lamp would have such wonderful capabilities of better revealing wear? I mean what is the physics reason? I am aware of no such science, but you have piqued my curiosity. 

 

I don't need to propose anything.  I don't know how a toilet works but I know how to flush away any . 

Try this experiment.  Put on the darkest sunglasses you can find and stare at the sun for a few seconds.  Remove the glasses, and you will be able to read your drivers license.  Now, stare at the sun for a few seconds and then try to read your drivers license. 

The glare of 100Ws reflecting from the surface of a brilliant white coin affects your eyes and HIDES THINGS on the coin's surface.   Florescent light eliminates the glare.  Now you can see them.  

[Insider]

15 hours ago, VKurtB said:

You didn’t fail this one either, trust me. The so-called test targets were completely bogus, a con job. Trying to con people is becoming the unofficial official sport on this board. 

 Thanks,I thought I was color blind too!   

[VKurtB]

17 minutes ago, Insider said:

I don't need to propose anything.  I don't know how a toilet works but I know how to flush away any . 

Try this experiment.  Put on the darkest sunglasses you can find and stare at the sun for a few seconds.  Remove the glasses, and you will be able to read your drivers license.  Now, stare at the sun for a few seconds and then try to read your drivers license. 

The glare of 100Ws reflecting from the surface of a brilliant white coin affects your eyes and HIDES THINGS on the coin's surface.   Florescent light eliminates the glare.  Now you can see them.  

I actually believe you may be the first person on planet Earth to write that “fluorescent light eliminates the glare”. Congratulations on that. Most people consider fluorescent light to be the ultimate glare creator. Perhaps a thorough eye exam is in order?

Edited September 2, 2020 by VKurtB

[Insider]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

I actually believe you may be the first person on planet Earth to write that “fluorescent light eliminates the glare”. Congratulations on that. Most people consider fluorescent light to be the ultimate glare creator. Perhaps a thorough eye exam is in order?

 Sigh, 

Actually, I'm not.  Remember my reference to the fellow who took the donkey to the water but the donkey didn't drink.  He made sure that his donkey didn't die of thirst.  He cupped his hands and brought water up to the dumb beast to drink. 

I'm a nice guy too (very deep down).  Here is the opening paragraph of something you may wish to read so that you become more informed.

From Numismatic News:   

No Flaw Can Hide

To introduce the subject of this column, let me quote from a recent article in Road & Track magazine about one of the fastest, most powerful and expensive supercars on earth built by Bugatti:  "The final step for each newly assembled Chiron is a painstaking examination under 100 fluorescent lights.  NO FLAW CAN HIDE."

I'll let you have the last word.  I'm out of water and I'm drying my hands.  .

 

Next quiz coming soon.

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Insider

[Alex in PA.]

I have a friend who is a psychologist and he could make a career out of analyzing these pages of syntax suffering coupled with adverb overload.

Adieu mes amis

[Henri Charriere]

That is the one good thing about being both a rank amateur and troll.  Whether you pass or fail a colorblindness test -- or promote the efficacy of 100-watt bulbs to the heavens, no one cares... and life, and this thread, go on.

[Henri Charriere]

8 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

I have a friend who is a psychologist and he could make a career out of analyzing these pages of syntax suffering coupled with adverb overload.

Adieu mes amis

There was a viewer some time ago who took exception to RichieRich2020's use of Capital letters likening them to shouting.  And yet, in the past week alone we've seen bold, out-sized fonts, some in living technicolor, which no one takes exception to because they are a creative sight to behold and/or intimidated by the temperamental personalities who wield them.  Great stuff!

[Insider]

15 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

That is the one good thing about being both a rank amateur and troll.  Whether you pass or fail a colorblindness test -- or promote the efficacy of 100-watt bulbs to the heavens, no one cares... and life, and this thread, go on.

Agree 100%.  As the saying goes, ignorance is bliss.   Example: When I was young I didn't give a second thought to what was going on in our country.  Alfred E. Neuman ("What me worry?") was my twin.