Saints

[jkrk]

Common year saints premiums (non CAC) continue to slip over time? Am I missing something or are these coins relatively out of favor versus some others?

[MarkFeld]

I think the same could be said for most other generic gold type coins.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Premiums vary with time; I remember when gold first broke $1200 a few years ago, MS62 Saints even in common date had around a 50% premium over metal value, also around Y2K premiums on raw generics was high. But at the NY ANA in the 90s you could buy MS63/64 Saints for small premiums.

[RWB]

They are common gold coins and have little collector value except as type pieces. They once varied in step with gold bullion, but that broke down when gold prices jumped. Now, I suspect large holders are trying to squeeze everything out of them that they can before further declines.

[Curry]

Should common saints be a decent investment just for gold and little history?

[RWB]

Depends on how you value the history part.

Gold is gold and will nearly always have to be certified or authenticated before sale. For common-date coins that cost becomes part of the overhead of the coin.

[Matt_dac]

Curry - in my opinion - yes. They will always be worth at least a little more than gold spot due to the numismatic value, particularly if graded and with nice eye appeal.

[Curry]

Depends on how you value the history part.

Gold is gold and will nearly always have to be certified or authenticated before sale. For common-date coins that cost becomes part of the overhead of the coin.

Certification is a must. Im the more slab kind of person. Still appeal comes first.

Curry - in my opinion - yes. They will always be worth at least a little more than gold spot due to the numismatic value, particularly if graded and with nice eye appeal.

I might have to consider it then. Gold has always been a goal for me to collect.

[GoldFinger1969]

Common year saints premiums (non CAC) continue to slip over time? Am I missing something or are these coins relatively out of favor versus some others?

Which ones ? What years or mint-marks ?

 

I think the rise in gold was NOT reflected in a rise in some Saints, so the premiums fell (but not the prices). For others, the price rose but by less %-wise.

 

Longer-term, we burned off the Bubble Excesses of the 1990's and 2000's as the premiums for MS-65s fell to 40-50%a few years ago, from 100% and more years earlier (I posted the charts somewhere on this board last year).

[GoldFinger1969]

I think the same could be said for most other generic gold type coins.

Mark, any thoughts on why ? Gold and silver have risen in price, no spillover to numismatics ?

 

Could the gold numismatic market be more tied in to weakening real estate prices ? Stocks have held up, no negative wealth effect there.

 

Could just be excess supply and lack of interest. Prices/premiums seem to be holding up for MS-66's and 67's. 65's a bit weaker, and then below that it's look-out-below......

[GoldFinger1969]

Premiums vary with time; I remember when gold first broke $1200 a few years ago, MS62 Saints even in common date had around a 50% premium over metal value, also around Y2K premiums on raw generics was high. But at the NY ANA in the 90s you could buy MS63/64 Saints for small premiums.

Really ? I know MS-65's still commanded super-rich premiums after The Bubble, I would have thought even the lower 64/63 coins had rich premiums still.

[GoldFinger1969]

Should common saints be a decent investment just for gold and little history?

Depends on the grade, IMO.

 

Commons in MS66 or MS67 carry HUGE premiums. 65's, normally considered the dividing line for investment grade, are still pretty rich.

[MarkFeld]

I think the same could be said for most other generic gold type coins.

Mark, any thoughts on why ? Gold and silver have risen in price, no spillover to numismatics ?

 

Could the gold numismatic market be more tied in to weakening real estate prices ? Stocks have held up, no negative wealth effect there.

 

Could just be excess supply and lack of interest. Prices/premiums seem to be holding up for MS-66's and 67's. 65's a bit weaker, and then below that it's look-out-below......

 

I think it's due to supply/demand, as well as relaxed grading standards.

[jkrk]

I think the same could be said for most other generic gold type coins.

Mark, any thoughts on why ? Gold and silver have risen in price, no spillover to numismatics ?

 

Could the gold numismatic market be more tied in to weakening real estate prices ? Stocks have held up, no negative wealth effect there.

 

Could just be excess supply and lack of interest. Prices/premiums seem to be holding up for MS-66's and 67's. 65's a bit weaker, and then below that it's look-out-below......

 

I think it's due to supply/demand, as well as relaxed grading standards.

 

I wonder if Saint collectors are divided into two classes? The Numismatic collector wants the best (and will pay for it),, while gold coin collectors are opting to buy modern bullion coin selling with little to no premium? Meaning, owning a touch of history is currently not a consideration for the mid tier buyer? Perhaps, that's part of the demand equation that you mentioned?

[GoldFinger1969]

I think the same could be said for most other generic gold type coins.

Mark, any thoughts on why ? Gold and silver have risen in price, no spillover to numismatics ?

 

Could the gold numismatic market be more tied in to weakening real estate prices ? Stocks have held up, no negative wealth effect there.

 

Could just be excess supply and lack of interest. Prices/premiums seem to be holding up for MS-66's and 67's. 65's a bit weaker, and then below that it's look-out-below......

 

I think it's due to supply/demand, as well as relaxed grading standards.

 

I wonder if Saint collectors are divided into two classes? The Numismatic collector wants the best (and will pay for it),, while gold coin collectors are opting to buy modern bullion coin selling with little to no premium? Meaning, owning a touch of history is currently not a consideration for the mid tier buyer? Perhaps, that's part of the demand equation that you mentioned?

 

I think there are plenty of people who are right on the cusp for commons in MS-65 grade...this is the dividing line for investment quality for commons.....detailed premium history going back to the 1980's for Common Saints in MS-65.

 

I agree, the Numismatic collector will pay 5-figures for an MS-67 or the same amount for an MS-63 for a year or mint-mark Saint that is much rarer.

 

For general gold/Saint collectors who don't need every year/mint-mark, these are the price-sensitive buyers who want MS-65 as a general rule for the particular years they collect.

 

I know alot of Saint/gold investors like myself who can't possibly buy most of the years but can buy a few coins a year or so and want to buy coins that are affordable and also MS-65. They are going to buy common years and mint-marks of which there are plenty to choose from. Occasionally they'll buy an MS-66 if affordable OR an MS-64/63 for a much rarer coin.

[MarkFeld]

I think the same could be said for most other generic gold type coins.

Mark, any thoughts on why ? Gold and silver have risen in price, no spillover to numismatics ?

 

Could the gold numismatic market be more tied in to weakening real estate prices ? Stocks have held up, no negative wealth effect there.

 

Could just be excess supply and lack of interest. Prices/premiums seem to be holding up for MS-66's and 67's. 65's a bit weaker, and then below that it's look-out-below......

 

I think it's due to supply/demand, as well as relaxed grading standards.

 

I wonder if Saint collectors are divided into two classes? The Numismatic collector wants the best (and will pay for it),, while gold coin collectors are opting to buy modern bullion coin selling with little to no premium? Meaning, owning a touch of history is currently not a consideration for the mid tier buyer? Perhaps, that's part of the demand equation that you mentioned?

 

I was speaking to the large quantity available, relative to the demand. But again, it's not just Saints which are trading at low premiums. Check out other common gold type coin prices.

[GoldFinger1969]

I was speaking to the large quantity available, relative to the demand. But again, it's not just Saints which are trading at low premiums. Check out other common gold type coin prices.

Can you name a few of those coins ?

 

Supply hasn't increased, so what accounts for the decline in demand -- a few Big Whales exiting the market ? Reduced demand from lots of Mini Whales ?

 

It can't be from a general lack of demand from the hobby as a whole -- must be specific to a certain buyer.

[MarkFeld]

I was speaking to the large quantity available, relative to the demand. But again, it's not just Saints which are trading at low premiums. Check out other common gold type coin prices.

Can you name a few of those coins ?

 

Supply hasn't increased, so what accounts for the decline in demand -- a few Big Whales exiting the market ? Reduced demand from lots of Mini Whales ?

 

It can't be from a general lack of demand from the hobby as a whole -- must be specific to a certain buyer.

 

Several of the Liberty and Indian gold type coins of different denominations. And there have, indeed, been some large increases in supply.

[GoldFinger1969]

Several of the Liberty and Indian gold type coins of different denominations. And there have, indeed, been some large increases in supply.

Must be from collections being sold and/or estate sales, right ? Not like new coins were found, I presume.

 

Speaking of Saints.... .....I saw a very nice 1923-D CAC which the seller wanted about $2,500 for. But he was saying it was a $3,400 coin because of the reddish toning. It did look nice but the 1923-D is known for its nice appearance.

 

Anybody seen 1923-D Saints going for more than their grade/CAC status based on the orange/reddness of the gold ?

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Several of the Liberty and Indian gold type coins of different denominations. And there have, indeed, been some large increases in supply.

Must be from collections being sold and/or estate sales, right ? Not like new coins were found, I presume.

 

Speaking of Saints.... .....I saw a very nice 1923-D CAC which the seller wanted about $2,500 for. But he was saying it was a $3,400 coin because of the reddish toning. It did look nice but the 1923-D is known for its nice appearance.

 

Anybody seen 1923-D Saints going for more than their grade/CAC status based on the orange/reddness of the gold ?

 

 

Largely, coins from Europe.

 

When a seller says he wants $2500 for a $3400 coin, he has no credibility, as far as I'm concerned.

[jkrk]

I was speaking to the large quantity available, relative to the demand. But again, it's not just Saints which are trading at low premiums. Check out other common gold type coin prices.

Can you name a few of those coins ?

 

Supply hasn't increased, so what accounts for the decline in demand -- a few Big Whales exiting the market ? Reduced demand from lots of Mini Whales ?

 

It can't be from a general lack of demand from the hobby as a whole -- must be specific to a certain buyer.

 

Several of the Liberty and Indian gold type coins of different denominations. And there have, indeed, been some large increases in supply.

 

Between Indians $10 (58-61) , $20 Libs (58-62), $10 Lib's (58's) and now the last month or so Saints ( 63-64) ,

 

That's all I have been buying.

 

I guess the metal price minus a few % is my floor?

[jkrk]

Several of the Liberty and Indian gold type coins of different denominations. And there have, indeed, been some large increases in supply.

Must be from collections being sold and/or estate sales, right ? Not like new coins were found, I presume.

 

Speaking of Saints.... .....I saw a very nice 1923-D CAC which the seller wanted about $2,500 for. But he was saying it was a $3,400 coin because of the reddish toning. It did look nice but the 1923-D is known for its nice appearance.

 

Anybody seen 1923-D Saints going for more than their grade/CAC status based on the orange/reddness of the gold ?

 

 

Largely, coins from Europe.

 

When a seller says he wants $2500 for a $3400 coin, he has no credibility, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Perhaps, Many European entities need liquidity now so a surplus of bullion coins coming from overseas is not surprising?

[GoldFinger1969]

Perhaps, Many European entities need liquidity now so a surplus of bullion coins coming from overseas is not surprising?

 

I think we'd see something like that and it would be in the trade mags. I think this is just part of a "blah" period in coin collecting.

[GoldFinger1969]

When a seller says he wants $2500 for a $3400 coin, he has no credibility, as far as I'm concerned.

Normally, I'd agree but I do know this guy and he has been fair on price in the past. I do think he's into the coin at a high/recent price so doesn't have much room to be flexible.

 

I may see him soon and ask him where he got the $3,400 price. I don't think by putting that on a decal he's trying to imply someone is saving $900 or getting a steal....I think what is at work here is that at one time a similar 1923-D may have went for $3,400 because it had peculiar/particular features (i.e., reddish toning) when other coins were maybe going for 15-20% less.

 

Ergo, why I think he has that price next to the coin in his display case. Technically, he's correct: another coin may have gone for that price, when the market for 1923-D's was stronger or maybe when gold was higher.

 

But I think that price was an OUTLIER as opposed to the norm, that's the key.

 

I'll see if I can get a bit more info.