Grading standards?

[Nutmeg Coin]

I asked a dealer if a numismatic item of his was a PQ XF by today's standards and got this response:

 

 

"I ... think my grading ability is good but have no real faith in how they see things."

 

This is a major dealer who lists many numismatic (currency) items in his inventory that are uncertified at high retail.

 

I have seen this type of attitude quite often in coins, here on currency items. The problem is if there is no coherent standard on grading dealers can sell at higher grades than is justified.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I asked a dealer if a numismatic item of his was a PQ XF by today's standards and got this response:

 

 

"I ... think my grading ability is good but have no real faith in how they see things."

 

This is a major dealer who lists many numismatic (currency) items in his inventory that are uncertified at high retail.

 

I have seen this type of attitude quite often in coins, here on currency items. The problem is if there is no coherent standard on grading dealers can sell at higher grades than is justified.

 

Maybe it needs to start with a justification for using the word "justified" and what that means when selling a coin or buying a coin based on an opinion.

[dragon]

In my opinion "I ... think my grading ability is good but have no real faith in how they see things."

 

 

clearly translates to: "that's my optimistic view on the grade (hence price), but don't be surprised if it grades lower at a grading service"

[RWB]

Your personal opinion of condition and value is important, not the seller's.

[Nutmeg Coin]

It is fine for a dealer to be confident in their grading abilities but the customer/collector needs to have something objective to go on besides the dealers "opinion" of grade. I see grading services offering something more than an opinion when they are also offering a guarantee. This dealer offers a 30 return policy but which is nullified if the buyer gets the currency graded at an independent service. And with currency no grading service will offer a crossover service (minimum grade) as with coins which can be judged in a slab.

[MarkFeld]

It is fine for a dealer to be confident in their grading abilities but the customer/collector needs to have something objective to go on besides the dealers "opinion" of grade. I see grading services offering something more than an opinion when they are also offering a guarantee. This dealer offers a 30 return policy but which is nullified if the buyer gets the currency graded at an independent service. And with currency no grading service will offer a crossover service (minimum grade) as with coins which can be judged in a slab.

 

You can ask for objectivity all you want, but at least part of coin grading is subjective. And even if the major grading companies agreed to adopt a single set of written standards, it wouldn't work. That's because generally, there are too many variables among different coins to allow for written standards to be applied on an objective and consistent basis.

[RWB]

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your [grading] philosophy.

 

[With apologies to Will Shakespeare's Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio]

[Nutmeg Coin]

The strange thing about paper money is that it can be gem, perfectly centered, crisp, premium quality to the max. and have enough folds to put it into the VF category and there is nothing you can do to get it past the high tech equipment and sharp eyes that grade these.

[Conder101]

Sounds like a reasonable response to me. You are asking him to guarantee that someone else, applying their subjective standards, at some unknown time, (start of the week, end of the the week, start, middle, or end of shift after a long grueling day) will be the same as what he called the pice at the time he graded it. It really can't be done. And besides like RWB (and I) have said, the ONLY opinion that should really matter is the buyers. It doesn't matter what ANYONE else says about it. if it doesn't speak to you then pass. Would you buy a coin or piece of currency that you don't like or find ugly just because a TPG gave it a very high grade? Possibly even an unjustified one? I've seen some regisrty collectors do it, but I wouldn't.

[Nutmeg Coin]

With paper money subjectivity is not high. Due to serial number tracking there is far less upward mobility with notes that are taken out of mylar holders than with coins that are taken out of holders. And PMG as well as PCGS are pretty accurate on their grading indicating problems.

[MarkFeld]

With paper money subjectivity is not high. Due to serial number tracking there is far less upward mobility with notes that are taken out of mylar holders than with coins that are taken out of holders. And PMG as well as PCGS are pretty accurate on their grading indicating problems.

 

I'm lost - what is your point in this thread?

[Matt_dac]

As the buyer you can ask for whatever you want. The dealer can agree or not.

 

I purchased a raw Indian Eagle a few years ago. I value TPG grading in addition to my own eye appeal. The dealer agreed to a full refund if NGC/PCGS did not grade it at least AU58 with no qualifiers. I received this agreement in writing on my invoice.

 

The coin came back as 'Cleaned' and the dealer refunded my purchase price and $50 toward my grading fees. I would definitely buy from this dealer again.

[Nutmeg Coin]

With currency the history of the note is trackable by serial number unlike coins. The grading services that grade currency will usually consult prior results when a note of certain value is resubmitted. As I indicated in my first post in the thread my concerns were aimed at the grading of currency and the temptation of dealers who will overlook problems or grade sensitive issues when selling their material but be overly critical when buying.

[MarkFeld]

With currency the history of the note is trackable by serial number unlike coins. The grading services that grade currency will usually consult prior results when a note of certain value is resubmitted. As I indicated in my first post in the thread my concerns were aimed at the grading of currency and the temptation of dealers who will overlook problems or grade sensitive issues when selling their material but be overly critical when buying.

 

It would help if you would use the "quote" feature, to quote posts to which you're replying.

 

Your concern could just as easily pertain to the sale of just about any type of item, for which the quality affects the value and for which there is not a highly objective standard by which to measure it. Things have likely been that way for centuries and will continue.

[Conder101]

With currency the history of the note is trackable by serial number unlike coins. The grading services that grade currency will usually consult prior results when a note of certain value is resubmitted.

That relates to consistency not subjectivity. In fact it could have a tendency to lock in subjectivity errors. If a note was graded "wrong" and cracked out and resubmitted, if they research the serial number and find they graded it before, might they not have a tendency to simply give it the same grade they did previously? That was one of the "selling" points back in 1991 when PCGS developed their Expert System. It would recognize cracked out and resubmitted coins which would get their original grades again. The point being to eliminate the crackout game. I think it was also one of the reasons the Expert System was scrapped. They realized how much of their revenue either was or would in the future depend on resubmissions.

[Nutmeg Coin]

With rare coins and currency the effort to be more consistent is probably greater. But even with the rare items conservation, restoration, or doctoring can change the potential grade quite a bit. Before PMG and PCGS currency there was only CGA as the main currency grader that got in trouble with apparent biases and insider activity. The serial numbers together with Track and Price and various other rigorous research tools can nail down the history of various notes, giving less excuse to dealers who crack them out selling them raw at higher than previous levels. And the folds of a note are a chief grade limiting factor virtually impossible to hide with the real experts.

[NetStealsdotcom]

Well, as a banknote collector myself who focus on UNC notes mainly, my opinion is that, the grading of the banknotes can really be different from person to person, grader to the grader, so, yeah, I would say that, if you have a certain criteria of grading, I guess you can push that forward in determining the right grade, if you know what I mean.