Die Stress? Unusual Metal Flow?

[PocketArt]

While looking at some of my raw Waling Liberty Halves last night; I noticed a peculiar area on the reverse of this 1935 example between the "TED . ST" In United States. Of note; this is the only area of the coin that displays this effect. It looks to be some weird striation concerning metal flow. The area appears as if the metal when struck was pushed; then pulled back, forming small nubs that appear to be stretched. I haven't seen anything like this concerning metal flow so curious to understand how this happens. Am I correct with the "push and pull back" observation?

 

It's weird. You can observe an almost semi-circle formation above the dot between United States, and a faint line of raised metal following the "D" in United.

 

I might be over obsessing on this example; but, I haven't seen this before and curious if it's common and how it happens.

 

Thanks,

 

Rich

 

 

 

[RWB]

Termites....or?

 

Steel deformation due to stress and possibly local defects in the metal. Not uncommon.

[WoodenJefferson]

Nice pictures, not quite sure what causes the 'ghosting' effect on the stressed area of the die but the "push and pull back" may not fit what's happening here.

 

Perhaps there maybe theory's that better fit.

[Insider]

Looks like a place of extreme die wear. Very unusual to be centralized.

[DWLange]

Machinists call that "spalling." It's a form of localized die erosion, and numismatic writers often mislabel it as rusting of the die. It is commonly found on early USA coins and also on CC issues of the 1870s. Seeing it on a WLH is a bit unusual, but not noteworthy.

[RWB]

Spalling is dealt with at length in concrete construction and the specialized steel industry literature.

[clarkbar04]

Believe it or not, I have a 1935 walker in my hand right now that appears to be from that same die pair. I also wondered what was going on there.

[RWB]

Wow! Can you post a detail photo of the same area?

[clarkbar04]

About the best I could do with the pics I had already taken. I might take some more later.

 

[physics-fan3.14]

You'll hear that called "orange peel" surfaces sometimes, although that term is also sometimes used to describe a peculiar affect seen on proof gold. Here, it is from die wear as previously mentioned.

[PocketArt]

Thanks all. Interesting and informative descriptions on this area of the Walking Liberty half. Also, very cool that you found one of these clarkbar04! Fascinating this could be from the same die pair.

 

I'm curious if you see the same semi-circle formation above the dot between United States and also the line following the "D" as well? I wonder how similar they both look? Would be great if you're able to post another pic showing a bit more detail if able. I used my phone with the pics above as I found my digital camera is unreliable.

 

Any more 1935 Walking Liberty Halves out there?

 

 

[clarkbar04]

There is definitely an "arc" over the dot that connects the D and the S, and a line that extends about diagonally from the bottom of the D, I'd say it "points" to the area between the BU in Pluribus.

 

Yours looks like a high grade, I believe mine to be an MS65.

[PocketArt]

Neat! Sounds like we're describing the same coin! I've been looking for some other features that we might be able to match up; like a small die crack or something else. The only thing I can find would be a couple very fine but distinct die scratches that follow the rim above "Liberty" on the obverse. One looks to start right before the "B" and goes half way between the "E" and "R." Above the letters and below the rim- a bit of an eye strain through the loop.

[clarkbar04]

After some squinting through my loupe, I located the same die scratch/striation. It is just one long arc just to the inside of the rim, that starts and terminates right where you say.

 

Here is the whole coin.

 

[PocketArt]

Nice that we have sisters clarkbar04- thanks for taking time to match up some features.

[RWB]

Very interesting to see two halves from the same dies randomly appear. I wonder if this pair lasted longer than others?

[orifdoc]

Oh no, now we're starting in with Walker VAMs?

[RWB]

"Oh no, now we're starting in with Walker VAMs?"

 

Let's hope not!

[clarkbar04]

Very interesting to see two halves from the same dies randomly appear. I wonder if this pair lasted longer than others?

 

While these 2 appear to be from approximately the same die state, through my own observations the 35 philly is the "squishiest" in terms of strike quality of the 1930s and perhaps through 47, with 44 being close.

[Insider]

You'll hear that called "orange peel" surfaces sometimes, although that term is also sometimes used to describe a peculiar affect seen on proof gold. Here, it is from die wear as previously mentioned.

 

J.P.

IMO, this is how words used to describe characteristics found on coins get confused so that newcomers misuse them. So I'm going to disagree with you:

 

I know you wrote "sometimes" and "sometimes" above. I'll suggest NEVER and ALWAYS. That's because "Orange Peel" has referred specifically to the "blocky" to "plate-like" look found on the surface of many gold proofs. In my experience, it has been correctly used to describe this type of surface for over four decades.

 

IMO, Roger and Dave have correctly described what we see on the OP's coin. I will say that in my experience (in spite of another example here) this characteristic IS UNCOMMON.

[PocketArt]

I ask this out of ignorance: so what comes of a matched die pair from here? Is there a data base that this could be registered too? What is the value to the numismatic community? Is this just an occurrence that's acknowledged and then forgotten? What could be done with this particular determination concerning the 1935 Walking Liberty Half?

 

From the outside looking in, and not being in the know on how this sort of data is utilized- I'd think that each die pair from any denomination and series would be recorded somewhere by someone? Is it?

 

I suppose where I'd find this sort of information valuable would not just be determining the various dies that were used for each year; with any series and denomination involving U.S. coinage; but it could also provide a fingerprint for authenticating U.S. coinage in the future?

 

IDK; I think it would be quite valuable in having a data base full of U.S. coinage in all denominations that would have a record of the unique fingerprint that two matched coins from a die pair share. I suppose the fingerprint of the coin whose pair was previously confirmed would correlate to any die crack, or, scratch, and any unusual feature that could be matched to another coin for authentication in the future? Why not?

 

Is this occurring, and if not, maybe this is a way forward in documenting and in putting together a data base for future reference?

 

I get a BCI check done every year and my fingerprint is ran through the FBI data base to confirm I'm not a fugitive among other things- so; why not have a data base for U.S. coinage?

 

TPG's could do this? Not a far stretch I don't believe. Just thoughts...

 

 

 

 

 

[Insider]

A quick answer to your question is that many TPGS's, collectors, specialized dealers/collectors have already/are continuing to do just what you are asking.

I first read about "diagnostic files" in the late 1960's and books had already been published for half dollars and large cents.

 

That's how guide books are put together with some more detailed and specialized than others. As of now, I know of no mostly complete collection of WLH's. The longer a series runs and the more coins minted, the harder it becomes. So, we will not see such a book on WLH in our lifetime.

[coinman1794]

I suspect that there would be more dies and die marriages employed in the striking of Walkers for each date than the majority of collectors would be willing or able to collect, or even care about.

 

Personally, I do think it would be fun.