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Where is the Machine Damage?

Started by Danye West,

21 posts in this topic

MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

I don't see it either, BUT that certainly doesn't mean it's not there. Often a coin needs to be tilted and t under a light to see something like that.

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AHFreak

AHFreak

Posted
Posted

From what I understand, "machine damage" is usually what NGC refers to as "Wheel mark". I had a 1964 Kennedy once that I submitted because I thought it had a solid chance at a MS67, I knew for sure it was a minimum MS66. It came back obverse wheel mark and I never saw it before I submitted, in fact I studied that coin for a long time and still couldn't see what they were talking about even after I got it back. I never would have saw it but I posted about it here and several users explained exactly what wheel marks were and what they could look like, once I knew what I was looking for, and how to look, I finally found it. It could not be seen at all unless the coin was under light, at just the perfect angle and then BLAM. There it was, not big, not easily noticed, even when you found how to see it you still had to know what you were looking at to actually see it. .. It was so minimal that I felt it was pretty crazy the grader even saw it at all. But it certainly was a wheel mark. I would imagine this coin has something similar.

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e1cnr

e1cnr

Posted
Posted

Through the L in LIBERTY

 

and continuing along the periphery about as far as halfway between the I and B but in the left direction (Obverse near edge around 10 o'clock)

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Nutmeg Coin

Nutmeg Coin

Posted
Posted

It is unfair to submitters to not give them a numerical grade, as someone suggested it was a high end gem with a wheel mark, etc.. Why not do as the paper money graders do and give a numerical graded noting the problem?

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CaptHenway

CaptHenway

Posted
Posted

Through the L in LIBERTY

 

and continuing along the periphery about as far as halfway between the I and B but in the left direction (Obverse near edge around 10 o'clock)

 

THat would be my guess.

 

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coinman1794

coinman1794

Posted
Posted

 

Sometimes the graders will use the term Machine Damage to describe a wheel mark, other times, they will use the term Wheel Mark to describe a wheel mark. My guess is the former, as the coin shows no outward signs of machine damage, and a wheel mark requires tilting under a light source to be seen.

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physics-fan3.14

physics-fan3.14

Posted
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If it is a wheel mark, this type of damage can be difficult to see. In hand, it will appear as a series of very fine, parallel marks. In a picture, based on the lighting used, it can be impossible to spot. I would avoid this coin, and trust that PCGS got it right.

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

"I would avoid this coin, and trust that PCGS got it right."

 

This is the core of why the authentication companies exist.

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Nutmeg Coin

Nutmeg Coin

Posted
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One problem here is that if the coin were bought by a collector as a gem FL for near the market for that coin they now have no recourse. Go back to the original dealer they bought it from? Good luck with that, they will just say a deal is a deal, go fry ice, pound sand, better luck next time sucker. If the grading services become so fiercely judgmental that few coins pass their criteria for gem and above, problem free, PQ, etc. who benefits?

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AHFreak

AHFreak

Posted
Posted
One problem here is that if the coin were bought by a collector as a gem FL for near the market for that coin they now have no recourse. Go back to the original dealer they bought it from? Good luck with that, they will just say a deal is a deal, go fry ice, pound sand, better luck next time sucker. If the grading services become so fiercely judgmental that few coins pass their criteria for gem and above, problem free, PQ, etc. who benefits?

 

Or just take it as a lesson learned and never buy a coin with a wheel mark again. How else are you going to learn?

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coinman1794

coinman1794

Posted
Posted
If it is a wheel mark, this type of damage can be difficult to see. In hand, it will appear as a series of very fine, parallel marks. In a picture, based on the lighting used, it can be impossible to spot. I would avoid this coin, and trust that PCGS got it right.

 

My November 12th, 2015, blog post is an article about how wheel marks differ from some other forms of machine damage. It is titled:

 

"Avoid Costly Grading Mistakes: Make “Wheel Mark” Detection Habitual"

 

Scroll down to November 12th

 

 

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
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I don't know any show dealer in the NY area who would be able to pick-up on subtle marks like that.

 

Either you don't have dealings with sharp dealers or you don't give them enough credit.

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Nutmeg Coin

Nutmeg Coin

Posted
Posted

It would be interesting to test out a large group of dealers and see how many would spot the problem(s). I have seen well-established and knowledgeable dealers miss significant impairments like this as well other difficult to see issues such as rim issues. And do all major dealers reveal all problems and impairments in coins they are selling at shows, or does "caveat emptor" cover their transactions with less knowledgeable buyers?

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physics-fan3.14

physics-fan3.14

Posted
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It would be interesting to test out a large group of dealers and see how many would spot the problem(s). I have seen well-established and knowledgeable dealers miss significant impairments like this as well other difficult to see issues such as rim issues. And do all major dealers reveal all problems and impairments in coins they are selling at shows, or does "caveat emptor" cover their transactions with less knowledgeable buyers?

 

The majority of dealers would probably be able to spot machine damage. The ones who can't will stick to slabbed coins.

 

An honest dealer will disclose problems, and be upfront about his coins. A good dealer will never rely on "caveat emptor" - sure, you'll make one sale, and unload some , and the buyer is stuck with it. However, a good dealer is more interested in building a relationship with a customer in hopes of repeat sales. It is a lot easier to make a living if you have a reputation for being honest, and a large base of people willing to buy coins who trust that you won't screw them.

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