Coin newbie. Need opinion on cleaning.

[BassGMan]

Hey guys. Long time comic collector, newbie coin collector. I've got the grade thing down. I mean I'm just learning how to grade coins and I'm not good at it yet, but I understand the concept. The hard part for me is recognizing if a coin has been cleaned. I have recently purchased six Morgans from Ebay. Not expensive, but ranging from $30-45 each. Nice coins, bright and white, but I am weary about cleaning since these all look good as new, despite the typical scratches and scrapes. Two different Ebay dealers here, both with great reputation. If you could look at these and give me your opinions on if they look cleaned or not that would be great. A grade too if you are interested! If they are cleaned then that's fine and I'll just live with it as these are inexpensive coins, but at some point I'll probably start putting more money into coins and want to be more aware of what I am buying. In the meantime I may want to stick with graded coins if I can't trust the larger Ebay dealers. Also, any tips on which Ebay dealers are good to buy raw Morgans from? Thanks!

 

Purchased from rojo-86:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381494675417?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201489366477?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Purchased from morgandealer:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/401048215093?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/401048211139?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191770424661?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181976285541?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Danye West]

They all look cleaned. I only buy graded stuff from eBay, unless the pictures are really good.

[clarkbar04]

Those first 2 might check out ok, but it is hard to tell from those pics. All those from the 2nd seller appear to be dipped AUs.

 

Whether they have been cleaned or not is also hard to tell from overexposed photos.

 

Start by looking at listings for raw 79-s through 82-s. There are gobs of these in nice UNC condition, and raw. This will give you a good idea of the "look". But plenty of these have been cleaned too. Just my 2 cents, as a collector who started out buying raw Morgans. That is how most start out. You can still pick up some nice pieces if you are patient.

 

I wouldn't buy from either of those sellers based on pic quality.

 

If there are some you are interested in, perhaps best to get a 2nd opinion before you pull the trigger. I'd be happy to help, just shoot me a PM. I love buying raw coins!

[physics-fan3.14]

The first 2 are bad pics, but they are probably ok (from what I can tell). It is hard to tell if they are true UNC, or just AU-58 sliders from the pics - but neither would surprise me.

 

The second ones.... it is impossible to tell anything from those pictures. However, I would expect blast white, dipped, polished EF-AUs to show up. If they turn out to be nice when you get them in hand, consider it a lucky surprise. Based on those pics, if they look in hand like I think they might, you may want to consider returning them.

 

Welcome to the coin side of things. If you are interested in learning more about how to detect surface problems, and how to grade, I suggest you pick up a copy of my book "The Art and Science of Grading Coins" (linked in my signature below).

[Mark T]

They all look like dipped and or cleaned Au’s . Dead giveaway is when you see MS ++++.

I have to say the worse ones are from Morgan Dealer, those are definitely cleaned or over dipped and would probably be AU 50 at best . Both sellers are using washed out photos to hide what the coin really looks like. Basically buying raw coins on EBAY is like stepping in a mine field that is 90 % covered with land mines. You did not pay a lot although based on a quick look you paid more than the coins are actually worth if they are cleaned AU’s. These coins are probably worth a little more than melt. Morgan dealer looks like someone who buys bulk Morgans at silver melt prices and then sells them on EBAY for probably a %150 - %200 mark up . Want to get a real laugh, look at the reviews on Morgan dealers coins.

[BassGMan]

Thanks for the insight and tips guys! I have purchased a few graded Morgans on Ebay and the shine on those are different than the shine on these raw coins above. I have watched a few videos and read some things on detecting cleaning but it is hard to get the gist unless seeing in person, at least for me. In addition, and as opposed to comics which the nicer looking the better, is that these spotless looking coins (cleaned or not) just don't seem as interesting. So I think I'm going to change my preference to coins that look more used, but that are still nice, as opposed to uncirculated. I mean what is attracting me to these in the first place is the idea that they've been in pockets and have been spent to buy things over a hundred years ago. An uncirculated coin may be nice, but definitely not as interesting. Seems that as a newbie I am just trying to figure out my preferences and am making some beginner mistakes.

 

Another interesting point. These Ebay dealers above, as well as others I have seen, seem to make it very very clear how open they are to accepting returns. My guess is that this is because they know they are selling tainted coins and know very well some will call them out on it, and this gives them a very clear "out" so as to avoid negative feedback. I just received the four from morgandealer a few days ago and I could return them, but I kind of like the idea of keeping them as a reminder of what NOT to do. Had they been expensive, they'd surely be going back.

 

Also, you guys mentioned these photos as not being very good, but to me they actually appeared to be good photos. If anyone is interested, could someone post a link of a raw coin on Ebay that has good pictures? Heck, I don't even know what a good photo is supposed to look like!

 

I may be going to my first little coin convention next weekend (in Kent, WA) so I'll be trying my hand at purchasing a few inexpensive Morgans in person there. Should be interesting!

 

Physics-fan, I will look into your book. I have purchased a couple coin books so far that include small sections on grading, but nothing too extensive. I do have all the coins posted above in hand. They all look great as far as condition goes, so I'm happy with that part of it, but they look a little "too good" as in shiny-new, and that is what I was worried about.

 

Go Seahawks!

[physics-fan3.14]

Hey Bass, I really appreciate your desire to learn. There are a few points I'd make in response to your last post:

 

1.) All Ebay sellers are required to accept returns for a period of time, by Ebay policy. They may seem like they are willing to do it, but it really is to avoid negative feedback. The people who don't know better post happy, positive feedback; the people who do know better return the coins.

 

2.) I don't know what they look like in hand, but if they are cleaned, it would make sense to keep ONE as a lesson. Return the others. One is enough to learn the lesson.

 

3.) Learning to grade by photographs is very difficult. First, you have to understand what problem-free coins look like, and the ways that surfaces can be disrupted. Then, you have to understand what photographs can do, and how different lighting and photography techniques can change what you see. There are several different layers to grading coins by photos, which is why you've gotten a few different types of responses on this thread. I usually assume that if there is a bad photo, there is something hidden (and bid/grade accordingly), but that isn't necessarily true. It can get tricky.

 

4.) When a person new to coins looks at a cleaned coin, it looks shiny and bright and attractive. That's why people clean coins. To experienced collectors, the coin is cleaned - but that's not why they clean coins. They clean them to deceive inexperienced folk. Hang out here for a while, and read my book - and we'll get you up to speed quickly.

 

5.) When you go to the show, stick to slabbed, graded coins (until you know what you are doing). This will reduce your risk. Try to find attractive, problem free coins. They'll probably be more expensive, but they will be far more attractive and hold their value better.

 

6.) The question between "used" and "uncirculated" is an age-old one. Some collectors prefer coins that have been used for their purpose and seen some wear. Some collectors prefer coins that have been preserved in their absolute nicest condition possible. Only you can decide what you like. If you do choose circulated coins, I find that VF-EF is the best balance of grade, preservation, attractiveness, wear, and value.

 

7.) I don't collect Morgans myself, but here are a few pictures that illustrate what to look for in a coin picture: You want an honest picture that presents an honest view of the coin. You'll see pics that are edited to show the most optimistic view, or to hide problems. There are many things that lighting, angles, exposure, and technique can hide. A good picture will show you an honest view of the coin - it will show the color and luster of the piece, but it will also show you the marks, dings, scrapes, and hairlines. This can be tricky. Collectors want to show off their pieces and like pictures that make their coins look good. However, true collectors are also a brutally honest bunch, and will point out every flaw and grade a coin conservatively. The best pictures will show a coin just like that. Below are a few pictures of coins I own, which I consider to be good (honest) pictures: (Granted, these may be different qualities/types than you are interested in. I show them merely to illustrate a "good" coin picture, and what it means to be "honest" in coin photography).

 

 

 

[BassGMan]

Thanks again Jason! You just sold another book on Amazon! I had to order another case of cat food to reach the free shipping minimum!

 

You are also saving me money. You are right, why keep all those coins when one is enough? I'll keep the two from rojo above, but three of the coins from morgandealer are going back. Thanks again for your tips above. Even with that info I am much better off than before.

[BassGMan]

Not related to my initial inquiry, but this is related to what physics-fan said above about misleading photos. Looks like we newbies even need to be wary about graded coins! I was looking for a nice rainbow toned Morgan that was relatively inexpensive. I had a budget of about $200. I found one and the photo looked great:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331744904298?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Won it for $156 and I was excited. Just received it today and it looks nothing like the photo. Yes it is the same coin, and under direct overhead light it does look pretty. But under any other kind of light the coin is very dark, the rainbow disappears (I'm OK with that part of it since I know light brings out the colors) but the big problem is there is this large white "gash" streaking through the darkness making the coin look terrible. From the Ebay photo you can see this "gash" starting at the star under the M, continuing down three stars below, then over to the left ending near the front of the neck. So yes you can see it in the photo, but it does not really stand out too much among all the color. But outside of overhead lighting this is a dark coin and all that can be seen is this white gash. To me this is misleading. The coin is represented literally in the best light, which does not reflect the true look of the coin.

 

Anyway, so lesson learned about graded coins. I'll need to think about how the lighting affects photographs. All is good and the seller is letting me return the coin for a refund.

 

Note: Oh, and I should have known. In the sold Ebay items I noticed this same seller had sold this same coin before (using same set of photos), and apparently that guy returned it too for what was probably the same reason. If this guy lists the coin a third time, hopefully he does the right thing and represents it fairly.

[clarkbar04]

Seller has a return policy, so you might think about exercising it.

 

Not all toning is created equal. Bag toners are usually the most vivid - assuming there is good luster on the coin to start with. The photos were "enhanced" or "juiced" to show what the coin looks like in just the right light. I think that "coffee stain" in the middle would be a dealbreaker for me as well.

 

One thing I do before bidding on a coin (not all the time) is to copy the auction title and search completed listings to see if it has been sold and returned before.

[BassGMan]

Seller has a return policy, so you might think about exercising it.

 

Not all toning is created equal. Bag toners are usually the most vivid - assuming there is good luster on the coin to start with. The photos were "enhanced" or "juiced" to show what the coin looks like in just the right light. I think that "coffee stain" in the middle would be a dealbreaker for me as well.

 

Yes he is letting me return it. Even covering return shipping. Yeah, "coffee stain", that is exactly what it looks like. Any tricks for noticing these kinds of problems when you know the coin is pictured in the best light? This coin actually has great luster, I mean that coffee stain just pops right out!

[clarkbar04]

Unfortunately, when it comes to buying toned coins on the internet, experience comes from being disappointed and learning what to watch out for. I used to buy a lot of toned morgans.

 

I'd look for one with 100% coverage, and ones without any brown in them! Also, an obverse toner will typically carry a bigger premium than a reverse toner.