Grading Scams

[King_James042-migration]

Where can coin, currency, & bullion collectors find an independent, honest, and reliable grading service? Who Grades More Accurately??? Well I Guess That Depends On Who You Ask!!

I personally do not believe that we have any grading services in this country today that would fit the above criteria, I believe that at one time ANACS was an honest broker, Only because they were once run by the ANA itself, and was non-profit. I understand that today, NGC does the grading for ANACS. If So why are coins in ANACS holders valued less than the same coin in an NGC holder? For the most part, I believe dealers have ruined or corrupted the grading services, Dealers may have collections, but as dealers they are profit motivated, and have always believed that they should be given special consideration on the coins they send for grading.Dealers think their coins should be graded higher than those sent in by individuals, and they remind the grading services, that they have more coins graded, and pay in more money than individuals, and collectors. Dealers have always had WAY too much influence over the hobby, and the grading of coins. Let dealers grade their raw coins as they see fit, but don't let them say one PR70 is worth more than another PR70, because that is BS

We need one grading standard, and one only!! I have always believed that ANA should be the grading authority and set the grading criteria. Whatever that criteria, or standard may be, that should be it PERIOD!

Now over the last several years we have seen NGC, and PCGS especially issuing Multiple labels for the same coins. This is nothing more than a sales scam to get collectors to buy more and more of the same coins in order to have a complete collection. A 70 coin, is a 70 coin, is a 70 coin, no matter what label you put on it, but we now have limited edition labels,and dealers are now charging more for certain labels, than they are for others. Grading companies are trying all the time to create or expand their market share. New holders, old holders, is another gimmick, it shouldn't matter what holder a coin is in. If a coin is graded a 70 it is (or should be anyway) a 70 weather it is in a new holder, or an older style holder. QUIT trying to gouge the collector out of more money!! in fact, if a grader changes their holders, people with the older holders should be given a choice to keep the older holder, or up grade to the newer holder for a small fee.Money, and Greed is ruining, (or maybe it already has) ruined the hobby.

.

[MarkFeld]

Welcome to the forum.

 

Promotions, marketing, high asking prices and (if you want to call them) gimmicks are not the same as "scams".

 

NGC does not grade for ANACS.

 

 

[cpm9ball]

NGC is the official grading service of the American Numismatic Association which does not have anything to do with ANACS. I don't know how long you have been collecting coins, but I think you need to learn more before you start making unfounded accusations.

 

Chris

[ldhair]

Welcome King James.

Sounds like you have had some tough times in the hobby and have gained some opinions that are just not true. There is much to learn and this is a great place to learn it. Lots of good folks here with truthful answers. Just ask and above all, have fun with the hobby.

[Raisethis2]

Welcome to the forum.

 

You are correct in your observation that the major grading companies are marketing their services. Similarly, over a period of years grading standards have changed a bit where a coin today may receive a better grade than say the year 2000.

 

That said, with the exception of the concept of "market grading" and the standard practices of the TPG Companies, things are pretty standard. I don't agree that the hobby is ruined because NGC and PCGS have different ideas about what constitutes FSB and FBL. That's left up to interpretation. Similarly, if you crack out an MS 66 coin and resubmit it then it's returned as an MS 67, that's a demonstration of the subjectivity the hobby and the grading process. Not necessarily something nefarious.

 

Dealers as a rule think they know best when it comes to their own coins. What they think they know vs what they get by participating in the submission process is suppose to be 2 different things. I'm certain that a Dealer here or there has successfully lobbied for a grade improvement at some point over the years however, the system is set up such that the coins and their owners are separated in the grading room. Unless the Graders know the owner of a coin crossing their path and have been previously been lobbied by that owner AND want to go along with that owners opinion, why would they care?

 

Developing a track record of working to please some customers at the expense of the others is the grading companies ticket to irrelevance. Why would they risk it?

 

 

[e1cnr]

welcome to the forums.

 

grading companies supply a service, which people pay for - people are not required to use these services.

[WoodenJefferson]

Where can coin, currency, & bullion collectors find an independent, honest, and reliable grading service? Who Grades More Accurately??? Well I Guess That Depends On Who You Ask!!

I personally do not believe that we have any grading services in this country today that would fit the above criteria, I believe that at one time ANACS was an honest broker, Only because they were once run by the ANA itself, and was non-profit. I understand that today, NGC does the grading for ANACS. If So why are coins in ANACS holders valued less than the same coin in an NGC holder? For the most part, I believe dealers have ruined or corrupted the grading services, Dealers may have collections, but as dealers they are profit motivated, and have always believed that they should be given special consideration on the coins they send for grading.Dealers think their coins should be graded higher than those sent in by individuals, and they remind the grading services, that they have more coins graded, and pay in more money than individuals, and collectors. Dealers have always had WAY too much influence over the hobby, and the grading of coins. Let dealers grade their raw coins as they see fit, but don't let them say one PR70 is worth more than another PR70, because that is BS

We need one grading standard, and one only!! I have always believed that ANA should be the grading authority and set the grading criteria. Whatever that criteria, or standard may be, that should be it PERIOD!

Now over the last several years we have seen NGC, and PCGS especially issuing Multiple labels for the same coins. This is nothing more than a sales scam to get collectors to buy more and more of the same coins in order to have a complete collection. A 70 coin, is a 70 coin, is a 70 coin, no matter what label you put on it, but we now have limited edition labels,and dealers are now charging more for certain labels, than they are for others. Grading companies are trying all the time to create or expand their market share. New holders, old holders, is another gimmick, it shouldn't matter what holder a coin is in. If a coin is graded a 70 it is (or should be anyway) a 70 weather it is in a new holder, or an older style holder. QUIT trying to gouge the collector out of more money!! in fact, if a grader changes their holders, people with the older holders should be given a choice to keep the older holder, or up grade to the newer holder for a small fee.Money, and Greed is ruining, (or maybe it already has) ruined the hobby.

.

 

I don't even know where to begin, so I will say this. The top tier grading companies have put the collector on an even playing field now for close to 30 years. In the past, dealers graded their own coins and at times were liberal with their grading standards. The well established grading companies created a dealer to dealer sight unseen network for collectible coins. The actual collectors began to ride on the coat tails of this network and have been better off since.

 

Say what you may, believe what you may hear, but there are untold throngs of coin collectors who have benefited from their services.

 

Enjoy your time here.

 

~Woody~

[Conder101]

in fact, if a grader changes their holders, people with the older holders should be given a choice to keep the older holder, or up grade to the newer holder for a small fee.

They do, it's called reholdering and costs $5 -$10.

[Nutmeg Coin]

If you think that the main grading services are arbitrary or not dependable on grading standards then you should examine the bias demonstrated by dealers who "grade" their own coins in the way most advantageous for the sake of the greatest profit; your average coin show is full of that problem. Remember--the Greysheet pricing is based on accurately graded coins according to the ANA grading standards, and currently often reflects CAC approved coins with even stricter standards. If you want the toughest grading standards you will have to pay for it. With the four main grading services there is a guarantee behind their graded coins which makes them stand out compared to services and dealers with no guarantee.

[RWB]

Bernie Madoff had one of the highest graded scams.

[johnny9434]

welcome to the forums, enjoy the stay

[coinman1794]

QUIT trying to gouge the collector out of more money!! in fact, if a grader changes their holders, people with the older holders should be given a choice to keep the older holder, or up grade to the newer holder for a small fee.Money, and Greed is ruining, (or maybe it already has) ruined the hobby.

.

 

I'm not sure I understand your point, but I will try to answer this one.

 

A collector is under no obligation to lose the holder the coin is in, simply because a holder has been re-designed. Having a coin re-holdered is optional, and a small fee is charged for the service. Also, when an old holder becomes obsolete, it is not possible to have a coin re-holdered into a holder that is no longer available. The primary reason the holders are being redesigned is to stay ahead of holder-counterfeiters. They have also been incorporating better and better systems and materials to preserve the coins longer. There is really no benefit to getting an old holder back.

 

If you are talking about designer labels, and not the holders themselves, those are optional features selected on the submission form.

[asdfgh]

I have said this several times on this forum. TPG grading has changed the entire process of selling a coin. It is now possible to determine fairly close as to what a coin is worth. For those that have only been collecting for the last 20 years they probably have not experienced the dealer grading scam. I decide to liquidate some of my coins 30 years ago to make a down payment on a house. Every single dealer I took my coins to down graded the coins 2 to 3 grades. Some dealers even telling me that they were all au. I was so down that I almost quit collecting. I did not sell, as it would have been such a loss. When grading came around I sent all of those coins in to be graded and some came back even higher than I had noted on them. Complain as you want about labels and such, just don't buy the label and they will quit doing it.

[bstrauss3]

There is probably something in your rant that is true. There is probably something in your rant that is interesting.

 

Unfortunately that which is true is not interesting and that which is interesting is not true.

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

There is probably something in your rant that is true. There is probably something in your rant that is interesting.

 

Unfortunately that which is true is not interesting and that which is interesting is not true.

 

 

Which, to a collector, is an understatement.

[CSdot]

The one thing your post did not include, that very well might be a valid rant, is the well documented practice by the two top grading services to refuse to cross at grade coins that currently sit in the other's holders. While I am sure that plenty of justifications can be imagined (you can't fully see the coin in the holder), but if these justifications are valid, then don't offer the crossover service because logically it results in undergraded coins.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Those are good points, you would think an additional fee might be a way around it for crossovers. And PCGS will do crossovers on most all other company holders, but NGC will only do it with PCGS. I would like to see some type of universal grading standard effort like CAC that would bridge the gap across other services, like Anacs and ICG, but ultimately there is no solution to the "only PCGS" slab crowd or "only NGC" group with the registry competition. I was speaking with one of the longest running dealer shops in the state and he thought that when grading holders came about they would be backing up that service with an active market in all the coins they certified.

 

"King James 042" still hasn't done another post, you kind of wonder what his point was.

[bstrauss3]

"King James 042" still hasn't done another post, you kind of wonder what his point was.

 

He came, he complained, he left... his work here was done

[RWB]

Maybe he discovered the meaning of everything, "042," and left us with that to ponder?

[WoodenJefferson]

...and here I was looking forward to having breakfast with the King

 

[rrantique]

...and here I was looking forward to having breakfast with the King

He had 10 nuggets for $1.49

[jpcienkus]

I have said this several times on this forum. TPG grading has changed the entire process of selling a coin. It is now possible to determine fairly close as to what a coin is worth. For those that have only been collecting for the last 20 years they probably have not experienced the dealer grading scam. I decide to liquidate some of my coins 30 years ago to make a down payment on a house. Every single dealer I took my coins to down graded the coins 2 to 3 grades. Some dealers even telling me that they were all au. I was so down that I almost quit collecting. I did not sell, as it would have been such a loss. When grading came around I sent all of those coins in to be graded and some came back even higher than I had noted on them. Complain as you want about labels and such, just don't buy the label and they will quit doing it.

 

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