Coin Dealer Newsletter

[Jedinite]

Could someone here bring me up to speed on the status of the greysheet/CDN publications? I understand that ownership has changed recently?

 

I am aware that many price categories seem to rarely, if ever, change. Type coin values are certainly an area that has seemed to me to remain stagnant over time. I don't get out much. ...has there been general dissatisfaction with these publications for quite some time?

[DaveG]

Here's a link to the thread ATS:

 

Link

 

Have fun.

[Jedinite]

Thanks for the informative link on the CDN discussion...just what I was looking for.

[BillJones]

The latest thing from the new publishers is that they going to use a lot of auction results for the Gray Sheet pricing. To me that can be a mistake. Now all of the auction winners are dealers. Some are collectors who are willing to pay on occasion some very high prices for what they want. Some of these prices are definitely not what I would call "wholesale."

 

A case in point is their new price for the 1796 No Stars quarter eagle in MS-62. The Pogue coin sold for over $800,000, and that is now their Gray Sheet price. I saw the Pogue, and it looked like an MS-63 or at least an MS-62+ to me. It was also the Pogue sale where high prices ruled. I don't think that result is a wholesale price at all although it would be great for me if it were. I've got one in an NGC MS-62 holder.

 

They are now pushing the Blue Sheet as a dealer price guide. I used to subscribe to that when I was dealer, but I dropped it because I found it to be virtually useless. The prices there were for sight unseen bids, and were most for over graded "C" level coins from what I could see. Since I avoided those, the Blue Sheet was not of much use to me.

[Jedinite]

The latest thing from the new publishers is that they going to use a lot of auction results for the Gray Sheet pricing. To me that can be a mistake. Now all of the auction winners are dealers. Some are collectors who are willing to pay on occasion some very high prices for what they want. Some of these prices are definitely not what I would call "wholesale."

 

A case in point is their new price for the 1796 No Stars quarter eagle in MS-62. The Pogue coin sold for over $800,000, and that is now their Gray Sheet price. I saw the Pogue, and it looked like an MS-63 or at least an MS-62+ to me. It was also the Pogue sale where high prices ruled. I don't think that result is a wholesale price at all although it would be great for me if it were. I've got one in an NGC MS-62 holder.

 

They are now pushing the Blue Sheet as a dealer price guide. I used to subscribe to that when I was dealer, but I dropped it because I found it to be virtually useless. The prices there were for sight unseen bids, and were most for over graded "C" level coins from what I could see. Since I avoided those, the Blue Sheet was not of much use to me.

 

IMHO - Your comments illustrate the reality of coin collecting and investing:

 

- The subjectivity of the grading process.

- The resulting inconsistency of grades applied by the grading services; and

- The difference in desirabiity of coins within the same technical grade.

 

This is why the bluesheet is representative of botttom-dwelling coins and, moreover, that the effort 25 years ago to make coins a commodity investment was a complete failure that led to the collapse of prices when the "investors" realized what was going on.

 

In line with the above, I think that auction results should be only one factor in assessing the value of a particular coin denomination and date.

 

Also, as a collector, I fail to see any relevance in attempting to put a fictitious wholesale and retail price on any coin. The value is what it is. A dealer has every right to pay less and charge more, but the market will control the value...or a range of values,,,in the buying and selling of coins, as with all collectibles.

[bourse28]

I dropped the bluesheet as it was essentially impossible to buy at those prices either at a show from walkup traffic or online auctions. About the only people who sell at bluesheet I know of is most likely someone who goes into a shop desparate to sell.

 

I have not seen the CDN CMI in the new greysheets. This is a valuable tracking stat and should be maintained.

 

In the digital age people are going to lookup a coin on their smartphones and have market data per the TPG cert verify. I access PCGS coin facts for auction data.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I recently bought a collection of common and slightly better date Morgan and Peace dollars in XF/AU; if a collector consulted the CDN on fair prices on these whether buying or selling they would be way off; just check what they are going for on ebay, much less.

[Jedinite]

I agree. In the last few months, I have purchased several batches of XF, AU, slider and UNC Peace and Morgan dollars at much below CDN. Most collectors (like me) don't have access to regular bourse floor and dealer to dealer trading information, so CDN is an important resource. Plus, it takes a lot of time to research the variety of sources online for this information, and you need to separate the wheat from the chaff..

 

In my opinion, I do think the "bid" and "ask" values format of CDN., if done so, could represent, with a reasonable degree of accuracy, the so-called wholesale and retail values of any given coin. That is, what a dealer might pay and ask for the coin in question.

[RWB]

The basis of any accurate pricing source are timeliness and truthfulness.

[bourse28]

CDN Bid / Ask is wholesale dealer to dealer. A retail transaction will be at a premium above CDN Ask which is a wholesale number.

 

For Market Retail one should consult CW Trends or the appropriate TPG price guide.

[Jedinite]

You can say that CDN is wholesale bid and ask, but the fact of the matter is that no knowledgeable collector pays the values in Trends or similar pricing lists. And most use CDN, eBay, Heritage and real market values in their purchasing transactions.

[DaveG]

Part of the "pricing issue" is that dealers' pricing and profit margins tend to vary.

 

I've been to coin shows where two dealers - three tables apart - were asking prices 10% apart on what was essentially the same coin. I've been to shows where dealers who are known to ask "retail" prices were only a couple of rows away from dealers who are known to ask "wholesale" prices.

 

In such a chaotic pricing environment, I don't see how anyone can produce a price guide that would reflect "reality."

 

I think the best a price guide can aim for is "stability" so that active market participants can use it as a reference point and know whether the "market" for a particular coin is above or below the price guide at any given point in time.

[Jedinite]

Part of the "pricing issue" is that dealers' pricing and profit margins tend to vary.

 

I've been to coin shows where two dealers - three tables apart - were asking prices 10% apart on what was essentially the same coin. I've been to shows where dealers who are known to ask "retail" prices were only a couple of rows away from dealers who are known to ask "wholesale" prices.

 

In such a chaotic pricing environment, I don't see how anyone can produce a price guide that would reflect "reality."

 

I think the best a price guide can aim for is "stability" so that active market participants can use it as a reference point and know whether the "market" for a particular coin is above or below the price guide at any given point in time.

 

I agree completely. I have attended major shows, off and on, for the last 30+ years and, as a collector, I have found there are some dealers that are courteous to collectors, and willing to deal, and some that won't give you the time of day. Prices on the same coins can vary tremendously from table to table, and I don't have a problem with that...everyone has a right to price their own merchandise. My most recent experience was at the Chicago ANA last year. My perspective is that nothing much has changed over time, other than the abundance of information that is now available to those who take the time to research.

 

I think CDN is a great "guide" and can provide valuable insight in a condensed package. It is a great resource to those of us that don't follow the market on a daily basis. As to "Trends" and the other "retail" price lists, my experience is that they only provide valuable information with respect to relative valuation. All of these lists, across the board, seem to be well above the price of what any given coin can be acquired for in the marketplace, even by collectors. It is too bad that they are not more reflective of the real market, because they are very misleading to the uninformed.