1890-S Liberty Head Double Eagle Gold - back from crossgrading

[thabeast]

 

Here's the original post showing our discussion on my coin before I sent it in for crossgrading: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8816847&fpart=1

 

So I submitted my SEGS certified 1890-S Double Eagle for crossgrading to PCGS (since NGC wouldn't cross), but I allowed 'anygrade' because I was confident it would move up a point. Oh boy, I was wrong about that... .

 

These guys are crazy!... I have owned and seen plenty of 62's for this series and my example is no where near a 62. I would say on a super duper conservative day it would see 63+ and on any normal day this is a solid 64 with a shot at +.

 

Options:

1. - I accept the PCGS grade, stop crying like a baby, and move on.

2. - I resubmit for an 'reconsideration' to get a higher grade from PCGS

3. - I send in for a crossgrade to NGC and hope it upgrades

 

Five MS64 examples below (for your comparison):

 

With a CAC sticker

 

PCGS MS64 example 2

 

PCGS MS64 example 3

 

NGC MS64 example 4

 

NGC MS64 example 5

 

I look forward to your thoughts and suggestions. Thanks!

 

[coinman_23885]

True View images are nothing more than glamour shots. Trying to grade from them is tantamount to numismatic Russian roulette. The images linked on the other thread also make the coin look nicer than some other photos on Collective Coin. In short, without knowing what the coin looks like in hand, our commentary is worthless. For whatever it is worth, both PCGS and NGC seem very tight at the moment.

[thabeast]

I believe the photos you are referring to were auction photos. I would also agree that the TrueView photos look better, but that's because the auction photos are horrible and not an accurate depiction of the coin at all. I would argue that your premise should be reversed.

 

For everyone's reference, here is the example of the auction photo being discussed:

 

[coinman_23885]

I am not taking a position either for or against the grade being accurate. I am only saying that we have seen three different sets of photographs, and each portrays the coin in a vastly different light. Without knowing which photo(s) are accurate (if any of them are), then we cannot tell you much. You don't want to throw a bunch of money on a coin with little prospect of an upgrade; however, you also don't want to potentially leave money on the table when it comes time to liquidating the coin. (I think you indicated that this was your ultimate goal - I think the coin was also listed for sale on Collective Coin which is why I remember it).

 

Do you live by any PCGS or NGC authorized dealers? If so, ask one of them to assess the coin for you. Alternatively, perhaps you could bring it to a coin show if there are any (particularly larger shows) in your area.

[thabeast]

My apologies, I read the post as though you thought the earlier photo from the auction was accurate. I would agree with 3 sets it could be difficult to distinguish which photo is most accurate. My photos pickup the luster but gives up some of the accurate surface detail/color. The TrueView gives up some of the luster for more accurate color and amazing detail. The TrueView is the most accurate photograph.

 

You are also correct that my intention from day one was to liquidate the coin. My original thought when I saw it was that it was undergraded and there was the potential to buy at a good deal and and sell it as an undergraded coin. It is amazing, almost to ad nauseum, how many people preach grade the coin and not the slab but don't practice it themselves. Since I didn't have any realistic bites over the past few months, I decided to submit it for crossgrade with my last submission. My mistake was not cracking it. Now I'm stuck with deciding how I want to proceed.

 

Thanks for your suggestions and your input, as it is always welcomed. Unfortunately, I don't live near any larger shows so I'm stuck mailing it.

[Danye West]

Wow, a 62? I thought it would be a 64 at least.

...But PCGS doesn't make mistakes

[thabeast]

...But PCGS doesn't make mistakes

 

Exactly

[Afterword]

Knowing very little about gold coins, I am curious about the pale spots on the reverse (first images). There is one beneath the fifth star below IN GOD WE TRUST.

[thabeast]

Knowing very little about gold coins, I am curious about the whitest spots on the reverse (first images). There is one beneath the fifth star below IN GOD WE TRUST.

 

I believe the spot you're asking about is a small area that hasn't patina'd or toned evenly. It doesn't stand out to me as a problem area and I think it's normal variation in toning.

[Mark T]

I would leave it alone. There is a large price jump from 62 – 63 so I doubt PCGS is going to up the grade. I think the only way you can get this in a 63 would be to crack it out and re submit. Chances are good it will just come back Ms 62.

Very unlikely NGC would up this to 63 when it is already in a PCGS 62 holder.

Another option would be to submit to CAC. I am sure it will get a green bean, if you get a gold sticker that is about as good as getting it re-graded at Ms 63.

What did you pay for the coin ??

 

[clarkbar04]

I have a $10 indian in a 62 holder, and I have no idea why it is in a 62 holder. I will not begin to try and grade gold.

 

Perhaps this is one of those "AU62s" I have heard about on the coin boards? The luster looks stronger around the stars and letters where it is protected, and maybe a few circulation scuffs in the obv fields?

 

This is purely speculation on my part, and only for the sake of discussion. It looks like a nice coin and I am sorry it did not grade out how you had hoped. I know what that is all about.

 

 

[johnny9434]

Wow, a 62? I thought it would be a 64 at least.

...But PCGS doesn't make mistakes

neither does the government

[thabeast]

I have a $10 indian in a 62 holder, and I have no idea why it is in a 62 holder. I will not begin to try and grade gold.

 

Perhaps this is one of those "AU62s" I have heard about on the coin boards? The luster looks stronger around the stars and letters where it is protected, and maybe a few circulation scuffs in the obv fields?

 

This is purely speculation on my part, and only for the sake of discussion. It looks like a nice coin and I am sorry it did not grade out how you had hoped. I know what that is all about.

 

 

It is not out of the realm of possibility that pcgs is looking at this coin like an 'AU62'. From my perspective, it's not a slider. I think the mushy strike and the way it's toned gives the illusion of some slight wear. Under glass though, I just don't see any... at all.

 

It's being resubmitted, so we'll find out soon enough how it plays out with this piece.

[BillJones]

True View images are nothing more than glamour shots. Trying to grade from them is tantamount to numismatic Russian roulette. The images linked on the other thread also make the coin look nicer than some other photos on Collective Coin. In short, without knowing what the coin looks like in hand, our commentary is worthless. For whatever it is worth, both PCGS and NGC seem very tight at the moment.

 

THIS

 

Do you remember the girl in high school who had acne scars on her face who looked like Miss America in her yearbook picture because of air brushing? I do, and that's my impression of the PCGS True View.

 

I even looked good in my yearbook picture.

[coinman_23885]

Are you submitting these yourself or having a dealer do it for you? At one point I had a membership over there, but have been moving to have a dealer submit them for me in recent months. Usually this has been an auction house, but for coins you want to keep, there are dealers who will do it for a fair fee. Here is a dealer that offers discounts on grading and is well respected in the numismatic community:

 

http://www.hlrc.com/gradingoffers.aspx

 

In any event, a dealer might also give you feedback about upgrade potential. Sometimes it takes multiple attempts to get the coin in the "right" plastic.

[thabeast]

Do you remember the girl in high school who had acne scars on her face who looked like Miss America in her yearbook picture because of air brushing? I do, and that's my impression of the PCGS True View.

 

I even looked good in my yearbook picture.

 

... me too

 

Are you submitting these yourself or having a dealer do it for you? At one point I had a membership over there, but have been moving to have a dealer submit them for me in recent months. Usually this has been an auction house, but for coins you want to keep, there are dealers who will do it for a fair fee. Here is a dealer that offers discounts on grading and is well respected in the numismatic community:

 

http://www.hlrc.com/gradingoffers.aspx

 

In any event, a dealer might also give you feedback about upgrade potential. Sometimes it takes multiple attempts to get the coin in the "right" plastic.

 

Yes, I am and I'M picking up what you're putting down. I've just had this same conversation with someone earlier today. Thank you for the reference... I will reach out to them tomorrow.

[Raisethis2]

Absolutely ship it to CAC with the hopes of getting the gold. That's the economic equivalent to an MS 63 slab and certainly seems appropriate based upon damage (or lack thereof). That's the most economic approach. If that fails then crack it and re-submit it. Pcgs may not have liked the color or luster and took the coin out and shot it for that reason.

 

I'm also a little skeptical about grades in relationship to the guarantee program. Could it be they just don't want to guarantee it as an MS 63, MS64?

 

 

[Mark T]

True View images are nothing more than glamour shots. Trying to grade from them is tantamount to numismatic Russian roulette. The images linked on the other thread also make the coin look nicer than some other photos on Collective Coin. In short, without knowing what the coin looks like in hand, our commentary is worthless. For whatever it is worth, both PCGS and NGC seem very tight at the moment.

 

THIS

 

Do you remember the girl in high school who had acne scars on her face who looked like Miss America in her yearbook picture because of air brushing? I do, and that's my impression of the PCGS True View.

 

I even looked good in my yearbook picture.

 

They did not invent the camera yet when you were in High School

[BillJones]

True View images are nothing more than glamour shots. Trying to grade from them is tantamount to numismatic Russian roulette. The images linked on the other thread also make the coin look nicer than some other photos on Collective Coin. In short, without knowing what the coin looks like in hand, our commentary is worthless. For whatever it is worth, both PCGS and NGC seem very tight at the moment.

 

THIS

 

Do you remember the girl in high school who had acne scars on her face who looked like Miss America in her yearbook picture because of air brushing? I do, and that's my impression of the PCGS True View.

 

I even looked good in my yearbook picture.

 

They did not invent the camera yet when you were in High School

 

Yes, it was called a camera obsura. They projected an image on a piece of paper, and an artist drew a sketch from it. After that they used an air brush to erase the scars from the girl's faces. It was really quite civilized.

[Nutmeg Coin]

A CAC submission would be interesting, but I doubt very much that it would gold sticker, I don't know any example of a recently certified $1500 plus coin that was conferred such a sticker making it a $5000 plus coin. Plus that would be highly controversial that PCGS made a significant mistake leading many submitters to doubt their objectivity. Most smart submitters write on the invoice in cases like this "grade as raw"; no hedging of the bets. Or just send in several times raw with other coins on the cheapest submission level so you are not squandering too much money. Some dealers tell me that grading services want to see a coin several times before they give it the best grade, which I don't believe. Three graders already looked at that coin and a finalizer supposedly and saw it as a 62; why?

[thabeast]

A CAC submission would be interesting, but I doubt very much that it would gold sticker, I don't know any example of a recently certified $1500 plus coin that was conferred such a sticker making it a $5000 plus coin. Plus that would be highly controversial that PCGS made a significant mistake leading many submitters to doubt their objectivity. Most smart submitters write on the invoice in cases like this "grade as raw"; no hedging of the bets. Or just send in several times raw with other coins on the cheapest submission level so you are not squandering too much money. Some dealers tell me that grading services want to see a coin several times before they give it the best grade, which I don't believe. Three graders already looked at that coin and a finalizer supposedly and saw it as a 62; why?

 

I think everyone knows that mistakes in grading are made by NGC/PCGS, both overgrading and undergrading. We know that bumps up in grade happen after resubmitting multiple times and we know that NGC may give a 63 and then it's submitted to PCGS and it grades a 64. These are things that happen daily in this space. With that knowledge, I think this coin falls into that space.

 

To answer the question, I'm not sure of the why. I do think it was just undergraded.

[Nutmeg Coin]

When that coin shows up at any of the upgrade places it will be radioactive with them on the lookout for it, I don't know how that will affect the potential upgrade.

[Afterword]

Given the fact that grades are only opinions and, by definition, not accurate evaluations, there is certainly a good chance of an upgrade. The upgrade, however, will be no more accurate than the present grade. It will, of course, be more desirable.