NGC Says It Ain't Finning, Then What The Heck Is It?

[najat]

Was requested to send pictures in to try to classify what the flaw was on the new $1 Sacagawea before I sent any in for grading. Got a stock answer back on what finning is. Other collector forums call it finning but NGC wouldn't tell me what they would call it. In their stock answer they say it would be thin enough to cut skin. Well, it will definitely cut skin but I don't want what would amount to a paper cut on my finger to test it. So here are a few pics to see what you all think about it. I have emailed a different person at NGC to see if he can get an answer if they would designate it on the label as something. You can see in the obverse picture a light what I will call mark opposite where the "flaw" is on the reverse side of the coin.

[19Lyds]

Sorry, but it just doesn't look like "classic finning" to me.

[ldhair]

Same here. That's not what I call finning.

[CaptHenway]

Yeah, a bit of a wire rim, but not strong enough to constitute "finning."

[coinman1794]

And a slight to moderate wire rim usually won't be designated at an error, in my experience.

[PaulS.]

I actually helped provide the response for your initial inquiry. Unfortunately, the slight finning (if that's even what it is) is not nearly pronounced enough to note on the holder. I've seen coins with much more finning that still weren't even called a mint error. Sorry!

 

 

 

-Paul

[RWB]

The defect you mention and that shows on your coin was created by the same mechanical processes as a more pronounced fin. However, it is considered acceptable because it is only slightly above the rim. This is very common and is found on nickels and cents, especially.

 

The cause is a mismatch between die, collar and planchet upsetting. Contrary to traditional explanations, a fin has nothing to do with the amount of pressure used to strike a coin.

 

If we go back to 1907 and the MCMVII pieces, many of the pieces made after mid-December have a similar slight fin...but certainly not like the thin protrusion seen on earlier MCMVII coins.

 

(PS: There is no such thing as a "wire rim" or "wire edge." It is a fin and is always a defect.)

[CaptHenway]

And on another note, that Reverse Proof Sacagawea is butt ugly!!!! ANother epic fail by the Mint!

[cpm9ball]

And on another note, that Reverse Proof Sacagawea is butt ugly!!!! ANother epic fail by the Mint!

 

(thumbs u

 

I wish they had never gotten rid of the Soaring Eagle reverse.

 

Chris

[RWB]

All "reverse proof" things are ugly. Reflections ruin design detail no matter how good the artistry.

 

(Poor Sacajawea looks like a turnip or maybe a tumor.)

[BillJones]

What you have pointed out is too minor to be of interest to very many collectors.

[johnny9434]

finning. thats new to me, anyone care to enlighten me on what that means? thanks in advance

[PaulS.]

From David Lange (this was sent to the OP)

 

Though the advantages of using close collars over open collars were many, including uniformity of diameter and raised rims that protected a coin from wear, they did present a new set of problems for the mints to overcome. These collars had to be aligned properly with the obverse and reverse dies to avoid what U.S. Mint personnel called "finning." This phenomenon is better known to the coin hobby as a "wire rim," and it resulted from metal being forced through a gap between the perimeter of the die and the inside diameter of the collar. If all these pieces fit together perfectly, a complete seal was achieved, and no wire rim would be seen—at least not on coins struck for circulation. With proof pieces, however, the multiple strikes required to bring out the coin's design fully often produced a fine wire rim on one or both sides of the coin. On the proofs struck since 1968, especially those reeded-edge pieces made from the very hard copper-nickel-clad composition, these wire rims are sometimes sharp enough to cut a person's skin if the coin is not handled carefully.

 

 

 

-Paul

[RWB]

This phenomenon is better known to the coin hobby as a "wire rim," and it resulted from metal being forced through a gap between the perimeter of the die and the inside diameter of the collar. If all these pieces fit together perfectly, a complete seal was achieved, and no wire rim would be seen—at least not on coins struck for circulation. With proof pieces, however, the multiple strikes required to bring out the coin's design fully often produced a fine wire rim on one or both sides of the coin. On the proofs struck since 1968, especially those reeded-edge pieces made from the very hard copper-nickel-clad composition, these wire rims are sometimes sharp enough to cut a person's skin if the coin is not handled carefully.

 

Well -- a couple of comments to expand on Mr. Lange's note:

 

1. Proof coins were struck once on a medal press until the 1970s when the Philadelphia Mint acquired presses capable of doing this while maintaining registration between blows.Even today, that is difficult to do for large pieces. Close examination of the 5-oz National Parks pieces often shows multiple outlines from the two blows given within about 1/4-second.

 

2. Control of finning requires coordination between die, collar and planchet upset. It cannot be mechanically controlled solely with the die and collar because the coin must be made to a specific diameter, yet have enough space for the planchets to seat correctly. For example in Dec. 1907 most of the extreme fin problem was eliminated on the high relief $20 by changing the upset diameter and angle on planchets -- not by altering the dies or collar segments.

 

3. The misnomer "wire rim" is obsolete. It implies some sort of intentional treatment that does not, and never did, exist. The phenomenon is correctly called a "fin" and is always classified as a defect by U.S. Mints.

 

More details will be found in "From Mine to Mint" and "Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908."

 

[johnny9434]

many thanks

[Afterword]

"fin"

 

 

 

 

Sounds a little fishy to me.

[RWB]

...part of the "sawbuck" fish.

[physics-fan3.14]

The TPGs will designate finning, if it is severe enough. Yours appears very minor.