That is a lot of money-

[Danye West]

Keyman, I'll say honestly: I prefer the toning on yours to the one in the OP.

Seconded.

[World Colonial]

I'm not sure if anyone realizes how long the "i wouldn't want to be holding the bag when the bubble" phrase has been said. Fifteen years at least. The high end toner market is alive and well as it has been for a long long time. It will be around for a long long time to come JMHO

 

The two are potentially mutually exclusive. It doesn't have to be both. You can be right and the buyer of this coin can still lose their proverbial shirt.

 

Personally, I agree with the sentiments here that the buyer of this coin paid an absurd price. I can see paying some low or moderate multiple or in the high three or low four figures if someone really likes it, but not this price.

[Afterword]

What is the explanation for this behavior? A few of us have offered possibilities. Are there any more ideas?

[Danye West]

Illuminati

[Walkerfan]

My dealer buddy had some decent Morgan reverse toners that were reverse slabbed by NGC at decent prices. Feeling now that I should've grabbed a few of them, while I had the chance.

 

Sadly there is bias against reverse toners in the toning community, and these sell for less than if the identical colors were on the obverse.

 

Thanks. I suspected this but wasn't sure if the difference was great.

[MarkFeld]

What is the explanation for this behavior? A few of us have offered possibilities. Are there any more ideas?

 

The explanation is that someone wanted to own the coin and was willing to pay the winning bid amount (or more).

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Do we know who bought it yet?

 

Perhaps a few folks from the top % got involved.

 

This in chump change for major players the likes of Donald Trump, Sam Bradford, Axl Rose or Warren Buffet.

 

The rest of you / us look at this like it is real money.

[BillJones]

This in chump change for major players the likes of Donald Trump, Sam Bradford, Axl Rose or Warren Buffet.

 

 

None of those guys are buy coins as collectors so far as I know.

 

At any many wealthy people are rich for a very good reason. They don't blow big money on over priced stuff.

[World Colonial]

This in chump change for major players the likes of Donald Trump, Sam Bradford, Axl Rose or Warren Buffet.

 

 

None of those guys are buy coins as collectors so far as I know.

 

At any many wealthy people are rich for a very good reason. They don't blow big money on over priced stuff.

 

I can't say the really wealthy don't blow money on something overpriced, but certianly not something like this which confers no status whatsoever to any actually wealthy person.

[Afterword]

Some interesting theories. People like Donald Trump believe $13,000 is big money and the really wealthy only care about status.

 

Well, we have narrowed it down to the middle class and the poor.

[Nutmeg Coin]

There is huge money out there chasing top quality art and collectibles and since there were several high rollers pursuing this coin presumably it wouldn't have made that much of a dent in the finances of them, as with many on these boards. Some think that only major countries can compete with the billions spent for financial reasons. But while China was selling US treasuries it turned out a guy and his hedge fund was filling the gap: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-08/mystery-buyer-us-treasurys-revealed With many of these investment geniuses out there stockpiling the best collectibles, it is not really that surprising to occasionally see outsized results.

[World Colonial]

Some interesting theories. People like Donald Trump believe $13,000 is big money and the really wealthy only care about status.

 

Well, we have narrowed it down to the middle class and the poor.

 

If it wasn't clear, my opinion is that the "super rich" disproportionately don't give a hoot about any coin, including this toned Morgan dollar. US collectors have a habit of hugely inflating the merits of any number of coins they like. Outside the US, I suspect 99%+ wouldn't think there is anything special about an equivalent coin from their home market at all. If they do not, why would hardly any non-collector, much less someone who is "super rich" such as Donald Trump?

 

To US collectors going by a prior thread, this is a "trophy" coin. The "super rich" buy trophy real estate, master's art paintings (Van Gough and Rembrandt) or modern art (Picasso or Warhol) and classic cars.

 

And yes, I do believe status has a lot to do with the purchase of expensive collectibles, certainly the ones I mentioned. I don't believe its much of a factor with coins but then, I don't believe the ownership of any coin confers status in the eyes of a non-collector anyway - at all - because its disproportionately only coin collectors who are impressed with it, much less the numismatic minutia which is the subject of this thread.

 

In the past, some of the "super rich" such as the DuPonts and JP Morgan were coin collectors. The most recent one I know whom I would classify likewise is Harry Bass if he is (or was) from the Richardson/Bass Texas oil family. The Pogue family might be but their entire collection whose value (I believe) Legend estimated at $350MM is only enough to buy a (very) low number of the elite objects I used as a comparison.

 

However many of the actual rich are collectors today, it should be apparent that the coin which is the subject of this thread is bought disproportionately (not exclusively) by the upper middle class or the "average" millionaire, neither of whom are actually rich.

 

[Afterword]

Some interesting theories. People like Donald Trump believe $13,000 is big money and the really wealthy only care about status.

 

Well, we have narrowed it down to the middle class and the poor.

 

If it wasn't clear, my opinion is that the "super rich" disproportionately don't give a hoot about any coin, including this toned Morgan dollar. US collectors have a habit of hugely inflating the merits of any number of coins they like. Outside the US, I suspect 99%+ wouldn't think there is anything special about an equivalent coin from their home market at all. If they do not, why would hardly any non-collector, much less someone who is "super rich" such as Donald Trump?

 

To US collectors going by a prior thread, this is a "trophy" coin. The "super rich" buy trophy real estate, master's art paintings (Van Gough and Rembrandt) or modern art (Picasso or Warhol) and classic cars.

 

And yes, I do believe status has a lot to do with the purchase of expensive collectibles, certainly the ones I mentioned. I don't believe its much of a factor with coins but then, I don't believe the ownership of any coin confers status in the eyes of a non-collector anyway - at all - because its disproportionately only coin collectors who are impressed with it, much less the numismatic minutia which is the subject of this thread.

 

In the past, some of the "super rich" such as the DuPonts and JP Morgan were coin collectors. The most recent one I know whom I would classify likewise is Harry Bass if he is (or was) from the Richardson/Bass Texas oil family. The Pogue family might be but their entire collection whose value (I believe) Legend estimated at $350MM is only enough to buy a (very) low number of the elite objects I used as a comparison.

 

However many of the actual rich are collectors today, it should be apparent that the coin which is the subject of this thread is bought disproportionately (not exclusively) by the upper middle class or the "average" millionaire, neither of whom are actually rich.

 

 

 

 

Wealthy and rich are relative terms. The people bidding up the coin in question to $13,000 were wealthy or rich enough to do so. Wealthy or rich enough to do so would encompass many people. Some of the bidders may be right here on this message board or in the top 1% of the wealthiest people in the world. Likely or not, they are all credible possibilities.

 

Nobody can know what another person, whether they are wealthy or impoverished, may desire.

 

[World Colonial]

Wealthy and rich are relative terms. The people bidding up the coin in question to $13,000 were wealthy or rich enough to do so. Wealthy or rich enough to do so would encompass many people. Some of the bidders may be right here on this message board or in the top 1% of the wealthiest people in the world. Likely or not, they are all credible possibilities.

 

Nobody can know what another person, whether they are wealthy or impoverished, may desire.

 

I am aware of what you are telling me. If I wanted to buy a coin like this one, I can do so and I am hardly rich.

 

My post was in response to your initial comment on status. I made this point agreeing with Bill that wealthy non-collectors disproportionately have no interest in this coin or any other whatsoever and one of the primary reasons they don't is because owning coins is not a status symbol. Obviously, not every wealthy person buys luxuries for this reason but it should be apparent that this is a big motive reflected in the prices of the items I mentioned which are held in much higher regard than any coin by the wealthy across the board.

 

This just doesn't apply to coins because none are held in high regard by the public, wealthy or not, regardless that comments on this board and PCGS have on occasion indicated otherwise and this should be obviously apparent to anyone who views the subject impartially.

 

A relatively low number will be impressed by the value regardless of which coin it is. A much larger multiple but still trivial minority will be impressed by a low number of coins because of the (perceived) historical connection but with this coin, it won't be because it sold for $13,000+, the toning or it's an MS-66. To the non-collector, it's no different than the 1883-O MS-64 I used to own that's worth what, $45?

 

To my recollection, I don;t recall what I consider the most elite collections include what is actually a common coin such as this one with an outsized price. Somewhere and sometime, I presume they did but the collections I know if they owned it, would not have remotely paid anywhere near this price, even adjusted for price changes.

[Afterword]

"I made this point agreeing with Bill that wealthy non-collectors disproportionately have no interest in this coin or any other whatsoever and one of the primary reasons they don't is because owning coins is not a status symbol."

 

 

 

I have made the point before in another thread that the majority of people (wealthy or not) desire the best of the best. The reason it stands out more with the wealthy is because they have more means to fulfill this desire than the average person. Like the average person, however, they also have desires that have nothing to do with status.

 

Your perception of the wealthy seems to be driven by the social media, which focuses almost exclusively on extravagances. They are not going to tell you that a Bill Gates or Donald Trump owns a relatively inexpensive and common date Morgan silver dollar because the colors remind him of the one his grandfather once showed him when he was boy.

 

In all likelihood you and Bill are right and the 1% of the wealthiest had nothing to do with the coin in question, but I think it may have more to do with the odds (1% is 1%, after all) and a stereotypical point of view than anything else.

 

 

 

[brg5658]

Nothing surprises me anymore in the world of toned Morgans. This is just one of several that have recently sold for 50-100x their market value as white coins. To each his/her own.

 

For the record, I also don't understand people who buy Harley Davidson's for multiples of the cost of the coin in the OP, or cars for 20 times the cost of the coin in the OP. Someone wanted it, and they apparently had the money to buy -- so, I hope they enjoy it. Just not my cup of tea.

 

Takes all kinds...

[World Colonial]

I have made the point before in another thread that the majority of people (wealthy or not) desire the best of the best. The reason it stands out more with the wealthy is because they have more means to fulfill this desire than the average person. Like the average person, however, they also have desires that have nothing to do with status.

 

Your perception of the wealthy seems to be driven by the social media, which focuses almost exclusively on extravagances. They are not going to tell you that a Bill Gates or Donald Trump owns a relatively inexpensive and common date Morgan silver dollar because the colors remind him of the one his grandfather once showed him when he was boy.

 

In all likelihood you and Bill are right and the 1% of the wealthiest had nothing to do with the coin in question, but I think it may have more to do with the odds (1% is 1%, after all) and a stereotypical point of view than anything else.

 

 

My comments were a generalization, not specific to this coin.

 

I acknowledge that not all of the affluent are driven by status. The primary point I was making in my initial comment on this subject is that this coin (and others like it) doesn't have the distinction which many posters here and on PCGS seem to believe. It's a nice coin but nothing more and my comments are a reality check in contrast to the exaggerated claims I see here and on PCGS for any number of coins.

 

Your last two paragraphs are related to nostalgia. It exists but contrary to what many seem to believe, there isn't any evidence that it is a significant factor in the demand or price of a coin such as this one at all. No one needs to pay $13,000+ to satisfy their nostalgia. They can equally do it for $45 with the coin I used to own. Whether it occurred here or not, I have no idea.

 

[Afterword]

"It exists but contrary to what many seem to believe, there isn't any evidence that it is a significant factor in the demand or price of a coin such as this one at all."

 

 

 

 

I did not claim it was a significant factor.

 

 

 

 

"No one needs to pay $13,000+ to satisfy their nostalgia. They can equally do it for $45 with the coin I used to own."

 

 

 

 

Why do you presume to know what others need?

 

 

 

 

"The primary point I was making in my initial comment on this subject is that this coin (and others like it) doesn't have the distinction which many posters here and on PCGS seem to believe. It's a nice coin but nothing more and my comments are a reality check in contrast to the exaggerated claims I see here and on PCGS for any number of coins."

 

 

 

 

You are entitled to your opinion and they are entitled to theirs. Sometimes, after reading your posts on this subject, I wonder who you are trying to convince, those who disagree with you or yourself.

 

[KyleNumismatics]

Really amazing coin, not sure I would ever pay nearly $14,000 for it though.

[World Colonial]

Never mind.