Dealer Coin Theft Question

[USAuPzlBxBob]

After reading Charmy's Baltimore report, I wondered about her friend Rick, and about his 1864 1c coin that had been stolen, and that it was worth around $150K.

 

Are dealers insured for this possibility?

 

Also, for a "penny" that is worth so much money, and I can't imagine any other penny being worth more, it would stand to reason that the owner would safe keep it all the more, that it would be extra guarded, or extra locked away.

 

Is it that the thief goes the extra mile in diabolical subterfuge and distraction?

 

Perhaps planning well in advance with accomplices?

 

(Hope I'm not trespassing on too sensitive a topic, especially so soon after it happened.)

 

Bob

[MarkFeld]

My guess is, that while not all dealers carry insurance, the large majority of them do so. And in most cases, especially high value coins are treated more carefully than low value ones.

 

There are a good number of cents which are worth more than the one in question. I hope Rick's is recovered.

[ldhair]

I don't think Rick has posted many details about it. That's probably the smart thing to do with situations like this. I hope the coin is found.

[PerryHall]

There was a lengthy thread on this theft in the PCGS coin forum where Rick indicated that he was insured. Rick did not disclosed the details of the theft in that thread but I'm guessing that someone reached into his case and took it while Rick was being distracted by someone else who may or may not have been working with the thief.

[BillJones]

Since the theft seems to have been just the one piece, I'd say that the "slipped out of the case" scenario is the most likely. This is one of the biggest issues dealers have at the shows. A couple guys didn't like it, but the main thing that caused me to get ticked at a person at a show was when they got into my case without permission, especially when I didn't know who they were.

 

As for the price of "pennies," that have been a few large cents that have sold for over $1 million.

 

[WoodenJefferson]

At first wasn't the coin considered 'misplaced' and when it couldn't be found, reported as stolen?

 

It was mentioned (don't know if it is true or not) that the coin in question was perhaps 'targeted' as in a criminal type 'want list' and that is how it turned up missing.

 

Since values of rare items are based on current sales and historical sales, uber rare pieces under insurance claims will never reach the full potential value, unless a specific value is stated and then you will pay the premium for that applied value.

[MarkFeld]

At first wasn't the coin considered 'misplaced' and when it couldn't be found, reported as stolen?

 

It was mentioned (don't know if it is true or not) that the coin in question was perhaps 'targeted' as in a criminal type 'want list' and that is how it turned up missing.

 

Since values of rare items are based on current sales and historical sales, uber rare pieces under insurance claims will never reach the full potential value, unless a specific value is stated and then you will pay the premium for that applied value.

 

Most rare coin insurance policies do not include itemized insurance values for individual coins. And in the event of a theft, it is up to the insured to provide acceptable proof of value.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

After Mark Feld replied, "There are a good number of cents which are worth more than the one in question.", I went to the NGC Price Guide to see what "pennies" and even "half pennies" can go for. Had no idea they could go for so much.

 

Since gold is pretty much my thing, it is the icon I click at various websites whenever I'm on the hunt for anything new, and if you don't collect something, you sort of remain oblivious to the goings on within other collectable realms.

 

I'll have to check out the PCGS thread. With insurance, there is always your deductible that hurts, and loss of a prized and beautiful coin to theft would be even more insufferable, at least for me, to eventually overcome.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Just finished reading all 9 pages of the thread over at PCGS.

 

Not a member over there.

 

Noticed posts with nothing more than "ttt." Does that stand for "tap the thread" to bump it to the top of the forum?

 

Some member over there might want to ttt it, because it is the last thread on the last page, and about to fall off map. Page 27.

 

Best of luck getting the coin back, and sorry that this sort of thing happens.

 

Bob

[Raisethis2]

I spoke with Rick at the ANA show. The coin was insured. There has been sufficient time and discussion about it to conclude the coin has been stolen (rather than misplaced in a Dealer to Dealer transaction or the like). Obviously he hopes it's returned but at this point my own opinion is that it's going to be off the radar for some time to come.

 

It's a shame Charmy had to set up a camera to record the events at her table but that's a reflection of the times we live in. As America moves to greater numbers of "have nots" to the "haves", this will only get worse.

[BillJones]

Noticed posts with nothing more than "ttt." Does that stand for "tap the thread" to bump it to the top of the forum?

 

ttt = To The Top

 

It is most often used in the "Buy, Sell and Trade" section to keep an ad off the second page and further back when it will really be lost in the shuffle. Sometimes those who are desperate to keep a dead issue alive use it to get off the second or third pages.

 

The rules say you can only use it once a day in the "Buy, Sell and Trade" section.

[Afterword]

"As America moves to greater numbers of "have nots" to the "haves", this will only get worse."

 

 

 

 

While I agree with this premise in general, in this particular case I suspect the motive had more to do with greed than survival or retaliation against the "haves".

 

The coin was probably targeted by someone who attends such shows frequently and simply waited for the right opportunity to present itself. The owner of the coin in question is likely familiar with this individual and may have even had dealings with him/her in the past.

 

It is also likely that this is just one of several coins on a list of potential targets.

 

[BillJones]

While I agree with this premise in general, in this particular case I suspect the motive had more to do with greed than survival or retaliation against the "haves".

 

The thief obviously knew the right coin to steal. Most "have nots" don't know that. I'll bet that a lot of collectors don't know that an 1864-L Indian in Proof is a big deal.

 

Many years ago I was at a large New York City coin show when a commotion started at the side of the room next the stairs. A guy, who looked like a real doofus, tried to snatch a 40% silver Proof Ike Dollar in the brown box. The dealer involved wrestled the guy to the floor on the stair treads, and he was caught. The doofus obviously didn't know the value of what he was grabbing. Even if it had been a 1973-S, which was worth a couple hundred bucks at the time, it would not have been worth it.

 

[Afterword]

"The doofus obviously didn't know the value of what he was grabbing. Even if it had been a 1973-S, which was worth a couple hundred bucks at the time, it would not have been worth it."

 

 

 

 

Sounds rather desperate.

 

I am hesitant to judge people by how they look or a single act - and I would certainly require knowledge of the circumstances and motivation of the individual to determine whether or not it was worth it (to them).

[RWB]

Rather than a "have not," look for a greedy "have."

[BillJones]

Is getting arrested worth a couple of hundred bucks, which would be a lot less when you went to sell it, worth it? Is thinking that you could escape from a closed limited access area with guards at the one open exit, like a coin show, logical thinking after you have pulled an open grab and run a logical train of thought?

 

Call me "insensitive," but I've grown really tired of the PC mode of thinking that wants to give criminal behavior the benefit of the doubt. We are fast heading toward the situation where criminals are getting the idea that they do whatever they please because the police are a looking behind their backs for every action they take.

 

And yes, I looked in this guy's face, and it was obvious there was not much upstairs. He was a doofus.

 

We need to dust off the old slogan, "Next time you are in trouble, call a hippie."

 

[coinman_23885]

At first wasn't the coin considered 'misplaced' and when it couldn't be found, reported as stolen?

 

If that is the case, I wonder if it went the way of Fred Weinberg's stella (i.e. a California landfill).

[BillJones]

I might add that at some of the shows there are code announcements given over the PA system when known criminals enter the bourse. They often work in pairs. Their usual MO is to have one distract the dealer while the other grabs the merchandise.

 

Dealers work hard for living. I know because I was one, and I've seen the amount of time it takes to run a success store or auction. I have no patience for criminals who try to live off the hard work of others.

 

[Afterword]

Is getting arrested worth a couple of hundred bucks, which would be a lot less when you went to sell it, worth it? Is thinking that you could escape from a closed limited access area with guards at the one open exit, like a coin show, logical thinking after you have pulled an open grab and run a logical train of thought?

 

Call me "insensitive," but I've grown really tired of the PC mode of thinking that wants to give criminal behavior the benefit of the doubt. We are fast heading toward the situation where criminals are getting the idea that they do whatever they please because the police are a looking behind their backs for every action they take.

 

And yes, I looked in this guy's face, and it was obvious there was not much upstairs. He was a doofus.

 

We need to dust off the old slogan, "Next time you are in trouble, call a hippie."

 

 

 

 

 

It depends on how desperate you are. If you have not eaten in a couple of days, or your family has not eaten in a couple of days it might very well be worth it. If you are a drug addict and your addiction demands compliance, it might very well be worth it.

 

Addressing poverty and drug addiction might go a long ways toward alleviating the above mentioned scenarios, but they have to be acknowledged as contributing factors first. You can keep sending them to prison so their situations upon release are even worse and in desperation they commit more crimes - but then you are only perpetuating the problem instead of alleviating it.

 

Ignoring the underlying reasons for criminal behavior is counterproductive and shortsighted. It is also the reason crime keeps becoming more and more of a problem, instead of getting better.

 

[Danye West]

While I agree with this premise in general, in this particular case I suspect the motive had more to do with greed than survival or retaliation against the "haves".

 

The thief obviously knew the right coin to steal. Most "have nots" don't know that. I'll bet that a lot of collectors don't know that an 1864-L Indian in Proof is a big deal.

 

Many years ago I was at a large New York City coin show when a commotion started at the side of the room next the stairs. A guy, who looked like a real doofus, tried to snatch a 40% silver Proof Ike Dollar in the brown box. The dealer involved wrestled the guy to the floor on the stair treads, and he was caught. The doofus obviously didn't know the value of what he was grabbing. Even if it had been a 1973-S, which was worth a couple hundred bucks at the time, it would not have been worth it.

 

But, from the thieves' perspective how do you fence something like that?

[BillJones]

Is getting arrested worth a couple of hundred bucks, which would be a lot less when you went to sell it, worth it? Is thinking that you could escape from a closed limited access area with guards at the one open exit, like a coin show, logical thinking after you have pulled an open grab and run a logical train of thought?

 

Call me "insensitive," but I've grown really tired of the PC mode of thinking that wants to give criminal behavior the benefit of the doubt. We are fast heading toward the situation where criminals are getting the idea that they do whatever they please because the police are a looking behind their backs for every action they take.

 

And yes, I looked in this guy's face, and it was obvious there was not much upstairs. He was a doofus.

 

We need to dust off the old slogan, "Next time you are in trouble, call a hippie."

 

 

 

 

 

It depends on how desperate you are. If you have not eaten in a couple of days, or your family has not eaten in a couple of days it might very well be worth it. If you are a drug addict and your addiction demands compliance, it might very well be worth it.

 

Addressing poverty and drug addiction might go a long ways toward alleviating the above mentioned scenarios, but they have to be acknowledged as contributing factors first. You can keep sending them to prison so their situations upon release are even worse and in desperation they commit more crimes - but then you are only perpetuating the problem instead of alleviating it.

 

Ignoring the underlying reasons for criminal behavior is counterproductive and shortsighted. It is also the reason crime keeps becoming more and more of a problem, instead of getting better.

 

The guy was fat and he was reasonably well dressed. He didn't look like homeless person at all. In those days I doubt that a dirty homeless person would have gotten in the door of the Park Sheraton where the show was held, much less getting past the registration at the coin show.

 

All this bleeding heart stuff for criminals misses the point. Some people want to live by taking shortcuts. Some people are just plain no good. Some people like my cousin, who died young, just never wised up despite a term in prison and bullet to the belly that he got when he was trespassing on someone else's property. He didn't have sense enough not to deal drugs in Texas when they were sending people to prison for life for having one joint.

 

And here's the kicker. He was the heir to a $60,000 a year annuity, which was very serious money 35 years ago. He didn't need to be doing stupid stuff. But he kept doing it. And when you talked to him, he was nice guy. He just had a crazy streak that could not be cured.

 

I used to feel like you do. But you learn what the cops know. A lot of crimes are committed by the same people over and over again. Some people just can't be reformed.

 

 

[Afterword]

Is getting arrested worth a couple of hundred bucks, which would be a lot less when you went to sell it, worth it? Is thinking that you could escape from a closed limited access area with guards at the one open exit, like a coin show, logical thinking after you have pulled an open grab and run a logical train of thought?

 

Call me "insensitive," but I've grown really tired of the PC mode of thinking that wants to give criminal behavior the benefit of the doubt. We are fast heading toward the situation where criminals are getting the idea that they do whatever they please because the police are a looking behind their backs for every action they take.

 

And yes, I looked in this guy's face, and it was obvious there was not much upstairs. He was a doofus.

 

We need to dust off the old slogan, "Next time you are in trouble, call a hippie."

 

 

 

 

 

It depends on how desperate you are. If you have not eaten in a couple of days, or your family has not eaten in a couple of days it might very well be worth it. If you are a drug addict and your addiction demands compliance, it might very well be worth it.

 

Addressing poverty and drug addiction might go a long ways toward alleviating the above mentioned scenarios, but they have to be acknowledged as contributing factors first. You can keep sending them to prison so their situations upon release are even worse and in desperation they commit more crimes - but then you are only perpetuating the problem instead of alleviating it.

 

Ignoring the underlying reasons for criminal behavior is counterproductive and shortsighted. It is also the reason crime keeps becoming more and more of a problem, instead of getting better.

 

The guy was fat and he was reasonably well dressed. He didn't look like homeless person at all. In those days I doubt that a dirty homeless person would have gotten in the door of the Park Sheraton where the show was held, much less getting past the registration at the coin show.

 

All this bleeding heart stuff for criminals misses the point. Some people want to live by taking shortcuts. Some people are just plain no good. Some people like my cousin, who died young, just never wised up despite a term in prison and bullet to the belly that he got when he was trespassing on someone else's property. He didn't have sense enough not to deal drugs in Texas when they were sending people to prison for life for having one joint.

 

And here's the kicker. He was the heir to a $60,000 a year annuity, which was very serious money 35 years ago. He didn't need to be doing stupid stuff. But he kept doing it. And when you talked to him, he was nice guy. He just had a crazy streak that could not be cured.

 

I used to feel like you do. But you learn what the cops know. A lot of crimes are committed by the same people over and over again. Some people just can't be reformed.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree that some people cannot be reformed. Mental illness needs to be addressed as well. There are too many people that should be receiving supervised medical care and/or placed in mental institutions instead of prisons. Prisons should also make a serious effort to reform criminals and provide a safe environment in which to serve their terms and have programs to assist them once they are released (none of which exist in any meaningful way at present).

 

I am not a bleeding heart. In fact, I do not think very highly of our species as a whole. I do, however, want to live in a safer environment of my own.

[Houston Investor]

I am glad Mr Snow had the coin covered under insurance.

 

When set up at shows I have realized any lapse in security or even a minor distraction can lead to disaster.

 

While it appears unknown how his coin disappeared I do believe in inventory security protocols once the coins are in my case at a show: (1) making sure the cases are locked before leaving the table (2) brief cases containing coins, reference materials, etc are chained to the table, (3) not allowing anyone to open my cases and reach in and take a coin to supposedly examine, (4) not allowing anyone to leave my table with one of my items which has not been paid for, (5) making sure before I leave the table a coin or coins I was looking at (examining a new purchase) or previously showed to a possible buyer was left on top the case or on the back table.

 

I have no doubt there are people cruising the bourse floor at a show scrutinizing any table where the dealer is away for anything left out whether coins, paper money,reference books, or possibly unlocked cases, briefcases which could be picked up.

 

Irregardless, people can be distracted, get in a hurry to go make that fantastic buy, then there can be a breakdown in one of the security protocals above, and a thief can be on the scene to take advantage. It can happen to anyone.