Shouldn't PCGS & NGC be required to certify their certifiers?

Lucky One · August 5, 2015

"If you were a diamond buyer, you'd want a diamond grader grading your diamonds vs a grader who knows only emeralds or rubies, right? If you were a NASCAR driver, you'd fill your staff with NASCAR expets, not drag race experts, right? Then why do we accept inexperienced graders giving us the opinions we pay so dearly for? I'm tired of tryint to explain such a simple concept."

You are right - it is a simple concept. So much so that is extremely difficult to understand how a reasonably intelligent person such as yourself can believe the TPGs are not cognizant of this simple, far from a revelation and universally used concept.

Useless you are just plain ornery.

no, actually I hate to have to waste my time explaining myself over and over because people aren't reading what I'm writing. Of course I know the TPGs are aware of the problem, but the problem is what allows them to continue to profit. If you sent in a MS65, one you *knew* was a MS65 (collectors can have opinions just as valid as pros, can they not? Afterall, experience is experience whether you obtain it professionally or casually, is it not?), and it came back MS63 or MS64, you would send it back in for a proper grade, would you not? That is the game. I chose to not play it many years ago, after only a couple of years, but I did profit from many breakouts and resubmissions back then, until I realized I might be part of a larger and more serious problem. Sure, I'll still break out a coin that is grossly undergraded, who wouldn't? I can't afford to add coins to my set without selling off extras or reselling the occasional undergrade, so when I'm absolutely sure, I will do it, but it is not what drives me in the hobby- filling holes in a difficult set is and I think most true collectors view it the same way. The problem as I see it is gradeflation is caused by constant breaking out and resubmission until there are no undergraded coins left, just properly graded and overgraded or improperly graded, and if you don;t know what you're lookig at these days, you are likely to get burnt...

Ornery? How about dedicated to proper professional principles and maybe a little anal about spreading the word abiut this particular problem so that the ignorant among us don't get burnt. Tthe whole debacle really doesn't help ir hurt me personally in any significant way so I could walk away with a clean conscience. At least I have one...

Afterword · August 5, 2015

"If you sent in a MS65, one you *knew* was a MS65 (collectors can have opinions just as valid as pros, can they not? Afterall, experience is experience whether you obtain it professionally or casually, is it not?), and it came back MS63 or MS64, you would send it back in for a proper grade, would you not?"

Opinions are not absolutes, whether it is yours or the TPGs. You would not "know" it was an MS 65 - you would only believe it to be. Would you send it back for a "proper grade" if the TPG gave it an MS 65+ or MS 66?

"Ornery? How about dedicated to proper professional principles and maybe a little anal about spreading the word abiut this particular problem so that the ignorant among us don't get burnt."

There have been numerous threads here on this very topic. You are preaching to the choir. Not that this is anything new to these forums.

We have a lot of ornery critters about.

RWB · August 5, 2015

Sorry to say so, but this kind of blanket statement, "poppycock. you believe what you want to believe. My bet is that with very few exceptions, none of the responders collects anything but moderns," indicates any hope of civility has vanished....Can the elephant people can do better Thursday night.

Maybe this thread should be locked like the past one about documenting every error coin.

World Colonial · August 5, 2015

My bet is that with very few exceptions, none of the responders collects anything but moderns. Most probably have never held a 'rare' coin in their hands, let alone understand what I am talking about.

To my knowledge, most contributors on this forum either don't collect moderns at all and those who do certainly not exclusively. I don't collect any US coins and though my coins are disproportionately much cheaper, they are also much scarcer.

Here is an example from my series that I think meets the criteria you are describing. Both are from the Rudman registry set. Same date, same denomination, same grade but different variety with one clearly better than the other. This coin is easily scarcer than 99% of all US coins.

Is this a problem? Not to me because its apparent one is obviously better than the other. This is a series where I frequently disagree with the assigned grades and no, I am not an expert grader. My solution to this problem is to pay a price commensurate with what the coin actually looks like, regardless of what number is on the holder.

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/CoinView.aspx?PeopleSetCoinID=1459013

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/CoinView.aspx?PeopleSetCoinID=1459098

Nutmeg Coin · August 5, 2015

Maybe someone hit the lottery big or broke the bank at Monte Carlo and decided to get into numismatics. Ha! A carryover from the rude Trump phenomenon?

Afterword · August 5, 2015

My bet is that with very few exceptions, none of the responders collects anything but moderns. Most probably have never held a 'rare' coin in their hands, let alone understand what I am talking about.

To my knowledge, most contributors on this forum either don't collect moderns at all and those who do certainly not exclusively. I don't collect any US coins and though my coins are disproportionately much cheaper, they are also much scarcer.

Here is an example from my series that I think meets the criteria you are describing. Both are from the Rudman registry set. Same date, same denomination, same grade but different variety with one clearly better than the other. This coin is easily scarcer than 99% of all US coins.

Is this a problem? Not to me because its apparent one is obviously better than the other. This is a series where I frequently disagree with the assigned grades and no, I am not an expert grader. My solution to this problem is to pay a price commensurate with what the coin actually looks like, regardless of what number is on the holder.

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/CoinView.aspx?PeopleSetCoinID=1459013

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/CoinView.aspx?PeopleSetCoinID=1459098

Is it not possible that both coins are within the range of an AU 58 (by the TPG's standard of grading and not yours) and both are accurately graded? Perhaps the TPGs should start using a - to signify low end of grade, like they use a + to signify high end of grade. Neither seems necessary to me, as collectors should be capable of making this determination themselves, if they understand that grades do have a range.

PaulS. · August 5, 2015

World Colonial · August 5, 2015

Is it not possible that both coins are within the range of an AU 58 (by the TPG's standard of grading and not yours) and both are accurately graded? Perhaps the TPGs should start using a - to signify low end of grade, like they use a + to signify high end of grade. Neither seems necessary to me, as collectors should be capable of making this determination themselves, if they understand that grades do have a range.

I don't disagree with you.

I used it as an example that I thought might fit what LuckyOne had in mind.

I don't consider either coin is graded improperly but the point I was making is that I don't believe it really matters. Without actually looking at both coins in person, I presume the first has a slight rub somewhere or maybe it was downgraded due to the dark spot on the pillar side which might be something more than I can see. The second coin looks like a weak strike.

I am not in favor of the "+" desingation for the coins I collect..

To conclude, I agree with you because the first coin is obviously superior to the second, regardless of what grade is on the holder. I understand both coins will be up for sale by Heritage next year and any prospective bidders (not me) can easily decide what they want to pay based upon their own perception of the quality difference.

I suspect this is also true for many of the examples used by the OP which to my knowledge, are mostly bought by more advanced collectors anyway except as type coins.

Hard Times · August 5, 2015

poppycock. you believe what you want to believe. My bet is that with very few exceptions, none of the responders collects anything but moderns. Most probably have never held a 'rare' coin in their hands, let alone understand what I am talking about.

Lucky, this statement makes me question what you are doing here. You suddenly appear on these boards and make grand proclamations about the posters here without any idea what you are talking about. Yikes.

Afterword · August 6, 2015

Is it not possible that both coins are within the range of an AU 58 (by the TPG's standard of grading and not yours) and both are accurately graded? Perhaps the TPGs should start using a - to signify low end of grade, like they use a + to signify high end of grade. Neither seems necessary to me, as collectors should be capable of making this determination themselves, if they understand that grades do have a range.

I don't disagree with you.

I used it as an example that I thought might fit what LuckyOne had in mind.

I don't consider either coin is graded improperly but the point I was making is that I don't believe it really matters. Without actually looking at both coins in person, I presume the first has a slight rub somewhere or maybe it was downgraded due to the dark spot on the pillar side which might be something more than I can see. The second coin looks like a weak strike.

I am not in favor of the "+" desingation for the coins I collect..

To conclude, I agree with you because the first coin is obviously superior to the second, regardless of what grade is on the holder. I understand both coins will be up for sale by Heritage next year and any prospective bidders (not me) can easily decide what they want to pay based upon their own perception of the quality difference.

I suspect this is also true for many of the examples used by the OP which to my knowledge, are mostly bought by more advanced collectors anyway except as type coins.

Thanks for the clarification.

Lucky One · August 6, 2015

"If you sent in a MS65, one you *knew* was a MS65 (collectors can have opinions just as valid as pros, can they not? Afterall, experience is experience whether you obtain it professionally or casually, is it not?), and it came back MS63 or MS64, you would send it back in for a proper grade, would you not?"

Opinions are not absolutes, whether it is yours or the TPGs. You would not "know" it was an MS 65 - you would only believe it to be. Would you send it back for a "proper grade" if the TPG gave it an MS 65+ or MS 66?

so then what you're saying is that when that group of 3 put *their* opinion on it, they *do* know? Again, I see some silly contradictions out here in the forums. By the way- give me a stack of slabs and cover the grades and I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. I have been grading proficiently for forty years and have handled millions of coins in my lifetime so I'm fairly confident that I have seen enough to get most right. I rarely send in coins for authentication that come back graded lower than I expected and often get them back graded hgher,or in straight graded slabs when I expected a details slab.

Would you like to sit down and do a double blind with me? When I make a statement, I don't say it unless I mean it. At this point in my collectng career, I thnk I could do it in my sleep. Please don't question my ability or my motives here or take my challenge and put your money where your opinions are.

As for the sarcasm, no, what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded? I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty- would you? Like you said- why should I *know* better that the 'experts'.

And one last question- why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word? I'll sell you a hundred rare coins (as in not modern mass produced but perfect coins) in slabs that are overgraded if you really believe they are graded properly. I could probably scan the floor of the upcoming ANA show and find at least a hundred coins that are overgraded or have problems in straight grade slabs, and they are almost always dscounted heavily (the first clue that there are problems). Maybe that shows that 'market grading' is just propaganda to cover for so many mstakes in slabs...

Lucky One · August 6, 2015

Sorry to say so, but this kind of blanket statement, "poppycock. you believe what you want to believe. My bet is that with very few exceptions, none of the responders collects anything but moderns," indicates any hope of civility has vanished....Can the elephant people can do better Thursday night.

Maybe this thread should be locked like the past one about documenting every error coin.

how pathetic. SILENCE ALL THE SPEECH AND BURN ALL THE BOOKS THAT DON'T AGREE WITH ME!, he yelled from his soapbox... sigh

People like you do not deserve a forum, If you have no tolerance for those you disagree with, why not just find a nice little group of people who do agree with you so you can ignore reality. Civility? I was personally attacked in this forum, called a liar, accused of being someone else and now poopood to no end, so why would someone like me want to argue with someone like you? I tried to remain polite, but when you're being kicked from one direction and punched from the other, sometimes you feel the need to lash back. I'll save you the trouble- you keep believeing what you want and I'll keep living in the real world.

By the way- do you collect anything but moderns? If not, what are you offering an opinion on? There is virtually no difference between one and the next. Try collecting colonials, large cents, bust halves or something where there are virtually no identical coins and you need to have seen many of each issue to know how to grade and evaluate them. I think I wasted my time here because so few of you have ever seen a significant number of any of the issues my post involves...

MarkFeld · August 6, 2015

"If you sent in a MS65, one you *knew* was a MS65 (collectors can have opinions just as valid as pros, can they not? Afterall, experience is experience whether you obtain it professionally or casually, is it not?), and it came back MS63 or MS64, you would send it back in for a proper grade, would you not?"

Opinions are not absolutes, whether it is yours or the TPGs. You would not "know" it was an MS 65 - you would only believe it to be. Would you send it back for a "proper grade" if the TPG gave it an MS 65+ or MS 66?

so then what you're saying is that when that group of 3 put *their* opinion on it, they *do* know? Again, I see some silly contradictions out here in the forums. By the way- give me a stack of slabs and cover the grades and I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. I have been grading proficiently for forty years and have handled millions of coins in my lifetime so I'm fairly confident that I have seen enough to get most right. I rarely send in coins for authentication that come back graded lower than I expected and often get them back graded hgher,or in straight graded slabs when I expected a details slab.

Would you like to sit down and do a double blind with me? When I make a statement, I don't say it unless I mean it. At this point in my collectng career, I thnk I could do it in my sleep. Please don't question my ability or my motives here or take my challenge and put your money where your opinions are.

As for the sarcasm, no, what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded? I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty- would you? Like you said- why should I *know* better that the 'experts'.

And one last question- why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word? I'll sell you a hundred rare coins (as in not modern mass produced but perfect coins) in slabs that are overgraded if you really believe they are graded properly. I could probably scan the floor of the upcoming ANA show and find at least a hundred coins that are overgraded or have problems in straight grade slabs, and they are almost always dscounted heavily (the first clue that there are problems). Maybe that shows that 'market grading' is just propaganda to cover for so many mstakes in slabs...

Interesting. You say "I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. " And yet the experts, themselves, don't agree with each other that high of a percent of the time.

You have also indicated in this thread that the experts make plenty of mistakes. So are you making the same mistakes in agreeing with them so often? Or are you right and they, wrong when you disagree with them?

You continue to talk about grades being "right" (when they are at least somewhat subjective and inconsistent). Yet at the same time, you question "why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word?" Which is it - are they "right" or should they not have the final word because they might not be "right"?

You asked "..what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded?" Someone who cares about the integrity of grading, as you claim you do.

Lucky One · August 6, 2015

poppycock. you believe what you want to believe. My bet is that with very few exceptions, none of the responders collects anything but moderns. Most probably have never held a 'rare' coin in their hands, let alone understand what I am talking about. I've purchased several hundred haf eagles in the past several years and can tell you from that experience that the problem is much larger than most realize. What's worse is the fact that I have returned mostly slabbed material, rarely do I need to return a raw coin. Thse coins average a couple thousand dollars per piece so we're not talking about peanuts here. Someone is getting ripped off, or these coins just keep getting returned to the same dishonest dealers. One thing is sure though- I don't think I'm great, I am not a narccicist and I would gladly stack my grading ability against any challenger. My bet is most here wouldn't if they had to back the challenge with their collections.

And one more time- please read everything that I wrote- again, you're stuck on stupid if you think I'm talking about grading in general- I have said several times that I have full respect for the graders and agree with MOST of the grades I have had assigned to the coins that I have submitted over the years, and where there were the most disagreements, the 'professionals' actually overgraded my coins. I'm definitely not crying about the grading, you guys have done me right in that department.

The professionals obviously would like to sweep it under the rug. And Mark, I'm shocked that you would do so because you sell these coins. And I noticed that there was no reponse to the coin I gave the cert # for. What's with that Mark? Do you think it is OK to sell and resell the same mistakes in holders without describing the defects, just waiting fo the first sucker to stick to? And where is the ANA in all of this? Silent, and fighting amongst themselves for the past couple decades as well. True 'professionals'...

This hobby is shameful and some of it's leaders are not much different than the scum that inhabits the Congress. Any problem, no matter how small a percentage of the whole, is a problem when coins are misdescribed in holders intended to PROTECT people from financial loss. I'm going to leave it at that.

You are all entitled to your opinions, but like what the Congress has brought down on your shoulders in the past decade, you WILL all feel the cost of this sooner or later, and your hobby will be in shambles after the smartest among us sell our collections and find something else to do wth our time. As for the readers who 'invest' in mass produced modern junk in over-hyped slabs- enjoy the next crash because you will be leading the way. I have been around this hobby for a long, long time and I have seen it's gut, up close and personal. I think this will be the last series I collect and then I'll move onto the next phase of my life with a new hobby where people are hinest with themselves, open minded and willing to see reality for what it is.

To those who say it is impossible to clean up the mess and fix the problems, again, poppycock. We can fix only what we're willing to fix. I know this because I have been a professional troubleshooter and problem solver my entire adult life. I have never been stuck on stupid, it isn't in me- I fix stupid and have for a lifetime. I have never hiddn from a problem in my life and don't understand why people do, but it sems they do en masse these days.

To the very few who truly understood what was saying here, thank you for not jumping in with the wolf pack here. To those who did- shame on you. Best to all of you, and no, I'm not taking a bit of it personally (except the personal insults from a few immature people who thought it fair game to try to smear a fellow hobbyist), but I do feel sorry for those who would smear the messenger. At least I have the long experience to prove what I say.

I feel for my favorite hobby but not those who have contributed to it's destruction over the past few decades...

Poppycock? Stupid?

Logical questions offend you?

Logical questions smear you?

They were simple enough to answer. Why would you respond with illogical logic?

The questions were designed to allow you to express a clear picture for what your thrust is, since you repeatedly stated that nobody gets it.

You had a courteous opportunity to do so, and I thought you should be extended the opportunity.

At this point, I can only conclude your thoughts and musings are of no value.

You are very similar to a fellow named Cal.

Are you accusing me of insulting you, because of my questions?

I do not envision any advantage to the hobby having you as a meaningful participant, given your diatribe.

here we go again- I am NOT 'Cal', don't know him, don't know anyone here, just started using the forums. But, if this is what a person can expect when he shares thoughts and ideas or tries to champion a noble cause, then what do you really have? It is not a forum for free thought, it is your personal bully pulpit.

I explained myself in great detail throughout this thread, I can't make you read it or comprehend it, and I wouldn't anyway. Lazy minds bring lazy lives. I choose not to be lazy and go out of my way to understand others. If you asked me any clarifying questions (I'm not going to waste my time to look), you did get straight answers. I don;t play with people's heads. If I gave an incoherent reply, please point it out and ask again, but make sure the question wasn't already answered because I replied to a lot of questions an get tired of repeating myself.

Good day sir.

And no, I'm not accusing you of anything- if the shoe fits, wear it.

Lucky One · August 6, 2015

"If you sent in a MS65, one you *knew* was a MS65 (collectors can have opinions just as valid as pros, can they not? Afterall, experience is experience whether you obtain it professionally or casually, is it not?), and it came back MS63 or MS64, you would send it back in for a proper grade, would you not?"

Opinions are not absolutes, whether it is yours or the TPGs. You would not "know" it was an MS 65 - you would only believe it to be. Would you send it back for a "proper grade" if the TPG gave it an MS 65+ or MS 66?

so then what you're saying is that when that group of 3 put *their* opinion on it, they *do* know? Again, I see some silly contradictions out here in the forums. By the way- give me a stack of slabs and cover the grades and I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. I have been grading proficiently for forty years and have handled millions of coins in my lifetime so I'm fairly confident that I have seen enough to get most right. I rarely send in coins for authentication that come back graded lower than I expected and often get them back graded hgher,or in straight graded slabs when I expected a details slab.

Would you like to sit down and do a double blind with me? When I make a statement, I don't say it unless I mean it. At this point in my collectng career, I thnk I could do it in my sleep. Please don't question my ability or my motives here or take my challenge and put your money where your opinions are.

As for the sarcasm, no, what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded? I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty- would you? Like you said- why should I *know* better that the 'experts'.

And one last question- why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word? I'll sell you a hundred rare coins (as in not modern mass produced but perfect coins) in slabs that are overgraded if you really believe they are graded properly. I could probably scan the floor of the upcoming ANA show and find at least a hundred coins that are overgraded or have problems in straight grade slabs, and they are almost always dscounted heavily (the first clue that there are problems). Maybe that shows that 'market grading' is just propaganda to cover for so many mstakes in slabs...

Interesting. You say "I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. " And yet the experts, themselves, don't agree with each other that high of a percent of the time.

You have also indicated in this thread that the experts make plenty of mistakes. So are you making the same mistakes in agreeing with them so often? Or are you right and they, wrong when you disagree with them?

You continue to talk about grades being "right" (when they are at least somewhat subjective and inconsistent). Yet at the same time, you question "why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word?" Which is it - are they "right" or should they not have the final word because they might not be "right"?

You asked "..what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded?" Someone who cares about the integrity of grading, as you claim you do.

Mark, it is surprising to me that a professional of your stature would word a reply like this. I offered my challenge- would you wager a year's wages to find out if I can do what I say I can? I have been doing it for a long time (my very first break-out was one of my very first slabs- it was a 1865 PCGS MS63 3 cent piece, I graded it MS65, pre-sold it before I even sent it in, and it came back MS65 as expected. Sold it to Ellsemere Numis, maybe they still have record of it, it was about 1987), and yes, almost every single time I have resubmitted a coin that I believed to be undergraded, it has come back at the grade that I opined.

As for the reply to the last item you quoted- it is very interesting how you conveniently discarded my qualifying statement "I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty".

Yes sir, I wrote that, it's up there, go look, I guess it shows that you people have selectively read what you wanted to read and ignored the important parts.

I feel like I'm in a tag team match but it's verbal instead of physical, but I never would have expected you to be involved like this. I honestly am ashamed of what this hobby has become, and shocked that some people who I previously had high esteem for would get involved like you have here. It is unfair to take a person's quotes so grossly out of context, but here it is in black and white for all to see. And what was that you said about integrity? Does professional integrity mean anything to you sir? I guess this will be the last straw for me and like your teammate said, time to shut it down so no one else can read it for themselves and form their own opinions. What a sad day in America...

And one last time- it isn't about *grading*. Please read what I wrote, I made it clear that I meant proficiency in grading series, not coins in general. Anyone can grade post 1860 coins without much difficulty, with the exceptions of a few specific coins in each series...

Afterword · August 6, 2015

"If you sent in a MS65, one you *knew* was a MS65 (collectors can have opinions just as valid as pros, can they not? Afterall, experience is experience whether you obtain it professionally or casually, is it not?), and it came back MS63 or MS64, you would send it back in for a proper grade, would you not?"

Opinions are not absolutes, whether it is yours or the TPGs. You would not "know" it was an MS 65 - you would only believe it to be. Would you send it back for a "proper grade" if the TPG gave it an MS 65+ or MS 66?

so then what you're saying is that when that group of 3 put *their* opinion on it, they *do* know? Again, I see some silly contradictions out here in the forums. By the way- give me a stack of slabs and cover the grades and I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. I have been grading proficiently for forty years and have handled millions of coins in my lifetime so I'm fairly confident that I have seen enough to get most right. I rarely send in coins for authentication that come back graded lower than I expected and often get them back graded hgher,or in straight graded slabs when I expected a details slab.

Would you like to sit down and do a double blind with me? When I make a statement, I don't say it unless I mean it. At this point in my collectng career, I thnk I could do it in my sleep. Please don't question my ability or my motives here or take my challenge and put your money where your opinions are.

As for the sarcasm, no, what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded? I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty- would you? Like you said- why should I *know* better that the 'experts'.

And one last question- why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word? I'll sell you a hundred rare coins (as in not modern mass produced but perfect coins) in slabs that are overgraded if you really believe they are graded properly. I could probably scan the floor of the upcoming ANA show and find at least a hundred coins that are overgraded or have problems in straight grade slabs, and they are almost always dscounted heavily (the first clue that there are problems). Maybe that shows that 'market grading' is just propaganda to cover for so many mstakes in slabs...

Interesting. You say "I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. " And yet the experts, themselves, don't agree with each other that high of a percent of the time.

You have also indicated in this thread that the experts make plenty of mistakes. So are you making the same mistakes in agreeing with them so often? Or are you right and they, wrong when you disagree with them?

You continue to talk about grades being "right" (when they are at least somewhat subjective and inconsistent). Yet at the same time, you question "why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word?" Which is it - are they "right" or should they not have the final word because they might not be "right"?

You asked "..what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded?" Someone who cares about the integrity of grading, as you claim you do.

You left nothing for me to add, Mark!

Mr.Mcknowitall · August 6, 2015

poppycock. you believe what you want to believe. My bet is that with very few exceptions, none of the responders collects anything but moderns. Most probably have never held a 'rare' coin in their hands, let alone understand what I am talking about. I've purchased several hundred haf eagles in the past several years and can tell you from that experience that the problem is much larger than most realize. What's worse is the fact that I have returned mostly slabbed material, rarely do I need to return a raw coin. Thse coins average a couple thousand dollars per piece so we're not talking about peanuts here. Someone is getting ripped off, or these coins just keep getting returned to the same dishonest dealers. One thing is sure though- I don't think I'm great, I am not a narccicist and I would gladly stack my grading ability against any challenger. My bet is most here wouldn't if they had to back the challenge with their collections.

And one more time- please read everything that I wrote- again, you're stuck on stupid if you think I'm talking about grading in general- I have said several times that I have full respect for the graders and agree with MOST of the grades I have had assigned to the coins that I have submitted over the years, and where there were the most disagreements, the 'professionals' actually overgraded my coins. I'm definitely not crying about the grading, you guys have done me right in that department.

The professionals obviously would like to sweep it under the rug. And Mark, I'm shocked that you would do so because you sell these coins. And I noticed that there was no reponse to the coin I gave the cert # for. What's with that Mark? Do you think it is OK to sell and resell the same mistakes in holders without describing the defects, just waiting fo the first sucker to stick to? And where is the ANA in all of this? Silent, and fighting amongst themselves for the past couple decades as well. True 'professionals'...

This hobby is shameful and some of it's leaders are not much different than the scum that inhabits the Congress. Any problem, no matter how small a percentage of the whole, is a problem when coins are misdescribed in holders intended to PROTECT people from financial loss. I'm going to leave it at that.

You are all entitled to your opinions, but like what the Congress has brought down on your shoulders in the past decade, you WILL all feel the cost of this sooner or later, and your hobby will be in shambles after the smartest among us sell our collections and find something else to do wth our time. As for the readers who 'invest' in mass produced modern junk in over-hyped slabs- enjoy the next crash because you will be leading the way. I have been around this hobby for a long, long time and I have seen it's gut, up close and personal. I think this will be the last series I collect and then I'll move onto the next phase of my life with a new hobby where people are hinest with themselves, open minded and willing to see reality for what it is.

To those who say it is impossible to clean up the mess and fix the problems, again, poppycock. We can fix only what we're willing to fix. I know this because I have been a professional troubleshooter and problem solver my entire adult life. I have never been stuck on stupid, it isn't in me- I fix stupid and have for a lifetime. I have never hiddn from a problem in my life and don't understand why people do, but it sems they do en masse these days.

To the very few who truly understood what was saying here, thank you for not jumping in with the wolf pack here. To those who did- shame on you. Best to all of you, and no, I'm not taking a bit of it personally (except the personal insults from a few immature people who thought it fair game to try to smear a fellow hobbyist), but I do feel sorry for those who would smear the messenger. At least I have the long experience to prove what I say.

I feel for my favorite hobby but not those who have contributed to it's destruction over the past few decades...

Poppycock? Stupid?

Logical questions offend you?

Logical questions smear you?

They were simple enough to answer. Why would you respond with illogical logic?

The questions were designed to allow you to express a clear picture for what your thrust is, since you repeatedly stated that nobody gets it.

You had a courteous opportunity to do so, and I thought you should be extended the opportunity.

At this point, I can only conclude your thoughts and musings are of no value.

You are very similar to a fellow named Cal.

Are you accusing me of insulting you, because of my questions?

I do not envision any advantage to the hobby having you as a meaningful participant, given your diatribe.

here we go again- I am NOT 'Cal', don't know him, don't know anyone here, just started using the forums. But, if this is what a person can expect when he shares thoughts and ideas or tries to champion a noble cause, then what do you really have? It is not a forum for free thought, it is your personal bully pulpit.

I explained myself in great detail throughout this thread, I can't make you read it or comprehend it, and I wouldn't anyway. Lazy minds bring lazy lives. I choose not to be lazy and go out of my way to understand others. If you asked me any clarifying questions (I'm not going to waste my time to look), you did get straight answers. I don;t play with people's heads. If I gave an incoherent reply, please point it out and ask again, but make sure the question wasn't already answered because I replied to a lot of questions an get tired of repeating myself.

Good day sir.

And no, I'm not accusing you of anything- if the shoe fits, wear it.

OK.

MarkFeld · August 6, 2015

"If you sent in a MS65, one you *knew* was a MS65 (collectors can have opinions just as valid as pros, can they not? Afterall, experience is experience whether you obtain it professionally or casually, is it not?), and it came back MS63 or MS64, you would send it back in for a proper grade, would you not?"

Opinions are not absolutes, whether it is yours or the TPGs. You would not "know" it was an MS 65 - you would only believe it to be. Would you send it back for a "proper grade" if the TPG gave it an MS 65+ or MS 66?

so then what you're saying is that when that group of 3 put *their* opinion on it, they *do* know? Again, I see some silly contradictions out here in the forums. By the way- give me a stack of slabs and cover the grades and I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. I have been grading proficiently for forty years and have handled millions of coins in my lifetime so I'm fairly confident that I have seen enough to get most right. I rarely send in coins for authentication that come back graded lower than I expected and often get them back graded hgher,or in straight graded slabs when I expected a details slab.

Would you like to sit down and do a double blind with me? When I make a statement, I don't say it unless I mean it. At this point in my collectng career, I thnk I could do it in my sleep. Please don't question my ability or my motives here or take my challenge and put your money where your opinions are.

As for the sarcasm, no, what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded? I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty- would you? Like you said- why should I *know* better that the 'experts'.

And one last question- why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word? I'll sell you a hundred rare coins (as in not modern mass produced but perfect coins) in slabs that are overgraded if you really believe they are graded properly. I could probably scan the floor of the upcoming ANA show and find at least a hundred coins that are overgraded or have problems in straight grade slabs, and they are almost always dscounted heavily (the first clue that there are problems). Maybe that shows that 'market grading' is just propaganda to cover for so many mstakes in slabs...

Interesting. You say "I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. " And yet the experts, themselves, don't agree with each other that high of a percent of the time.

You have also indicated in this thread that the experts make plenty of mistakes. So are you making the same mistakes in agreeing with them so often? Or are you right and they, wrong when you disagree with them?

You continue to talk about grades being "right" (when they are at least somewhat subjective and inconsistent). Yet at the same time, you question "why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word?" Which is it - are they "right" or should they not have the final word because they might not be "right"?

You asked "..what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded?" Someone who cares about the integrity of grading, as you claim you do.

Mark, it is surprising to me that a professional of your stature would word a reply like this. I offered my challenge- would you wager a year's wages to find out if I can do what I say I can? I have been doing it for a long time (my very first break-out was one of my very first slabs- it was a 1865 PCGS MS63 3 cent piece, I graded it MS65, pre-sold it before I even sent it in, and it came back MS65 as expected. Sold it to Ellsemere Numis, maybe they still have record of it, it was about 1987), and yes, almost every single time I have resubmitted a coin that I believed to be undergraded, it has come back at the grade that I opined.

As for the reply to the last item you quoted- it is very interesting how you conveniently discarded my qualifying statement "I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty".

Yes sir, I wrote that, it's up there, go look, I guess it shows that you people have selectively read what you wanted to read and ignored the important parts.

I feel like I'm in a tag team match but it's verbal instead of physical, but I never would have expected you to be involved like this. I honestly am ashamed of what this hobby has become, and shocked that some people who I previously had high esteem for would get involved like you have here. It is unfair to take a person's quotes so grossly out of context, but here it is in black and white for all to see. And what was that you said about integrity? Does professional integrity mean anything to you sir? I guess this will be the last straw for me and like your teammate said, time to shut it down so no one else can read it for themselves and form their own opinions. What a sad day in America...

And one last time- it isn't about *grading*. Please read what I wrote, I made it clear that I meant proficiency in grading series, not coins in general. Anyone can grade post 1860 coins without much difficulty, with the exceptions of a few specific coins in each series...

I asked serious questions and pointed out that some of your positions appear to be contradictory. I am sorry if you were bothered by my direct manner.

No, I would not take you up on your bet, but not because I think you would have any realistic chance of winning.

I'm not sure what the point was of your two point upgrade example.

I didn't include "gross mistake and done out of honesty" because I have no idea what you consider a "gross mistake" vs. a non-gross one and I don't believe it can be determined whether the "mistake" was "done out of honesty". Curiously, how would you go about determining that? Edited to add: My presumption would be that any "mistakes" were honest ones.

Yes, professional integrity means a great deal to me and I am proud of the way I have conducted my business in this industry/hobby during the past 36 years.

AHFreak · August 6, 2015

He doesn't get it. At all.

World Colonial · August 6, 2015

He doesn't get it. At all.

The one thing I believe he doesn't get is that some here just disagree with him on the significance of this topic in this thread.

Mr.Mcknowitall · August 6, 2015

He doesn't get it. At all.

The one thing I believe he doesn't get is that some here just disagree with him on the significance of this topic in this thread.

A slight correction:

That was not the thrust or belief basis of my questions.

He decided that any lack of "I agree with you" responses were negative and to be attacked and the post and poster was to be belittled and minimized.

His interpretations of posts minimizes any logic posit he wished to convey, as does his phrasing and convoluted presentation.

BTW, my questions remain without response.

Maybe he just doesn't understand. That would make him equal to all the members he has decided as not understanding.

No, I think you are not correct in what he doesn't get. He gets it.

I would think the answer for him to find the island of understanding he is looking for is to build his own. Start his own TPG/4PG and inform the entire numismatic community of his purity and superiority and his better business plan, and the contribution he is willing to make, and the sacrifice of his valuable time to do so, because of his numismatic generosity.

Lucky One · August 6, 2015

He doesn't get it. At all.

The one thing I believe he doesn't get is that some here just disagree with him on the significance of this topic in this thread.

no, I got it guys, and I agree that most don't think it is a significant problem, and I agree, if it is taken in the general 'grading' context. But I didn't ask if graders should be graded, I asked if graders should be proficient and experienced in the coins they are tasked with grading. I have had a lot of words out in my mouth and I have been grossly or unfairly misquoted by several individuals here and that is the source of the confusion imho. I'm not asking anyone to agree, I simply put it out there for discussion, but I certainly didn;t expect to be mis-quoted and misunderstood by so many. I didn't mean to insult anyone when I said that most here are probably modern coin collectors, I said it simply to point out that it is very hard to understand something if you have never handled the types of coins that *I* am referring to. That doesn't seem to be so hard to understand, so I'm flabbergasted to see so many here struggling with the concept. I have full respect for those who disagree with me, I just wish they wouldn't take my posts out of context. Thanks for the reply...

Lucky One · August 6, 2015

He doesn't get it. At all.

The one thing I believe he doesn't get is that some here just disagree with him on the significance of this topic in this thread.

A slight correction:

That was not the thrust or belief basis of my questions.

He decided that any lack of "I agree with you" responses were negative and to be attacked and the post and poster was to be belittled and minimized.

His interpretations of posts minimizes any logic posit he wished to convey, as does his phrasing and convoluted presentation.

BTW, my questions remain without response.

Maybe he just doesn't understand. That would make him equal to all the members he has decided as not understanding.

No, I think you are not correct in what he doesn't get. He gets it.

I would think the answer for him to find the island of understanding he is looking for is to build his own. Start his own TPG/4PG and inform the entire numismatic community of his purity and superiority and his better business plan, and the contribution he is willing to make, and the sacrifice of his valuable time to do so, because of his numismatic generosity.

no sir, I don't think any form of disagreement is an attack, I was personally attacked by at least one person, maybe two or three, with no reply or contribution to the conversation at all, just an accusation that I was someone else and just a troublemaker. It is shameful to belittle a person you don't even know, but it happened here and that is what I referred to as an attack. nuf sed on the subject?

As for generosity- so you think the ones who questioned my integrity or honesty actually contributed "purity and superiority and his better business plan, and the contribution he is willing to make, and the sacrifice of his valuable time to do so, because of his numismatic generosity"?

Lucky One · August 6, 2015

His interpretations of posts minimizes any logic posit he wished to convey, as does his phrasing and convoluted presentation.

BTW, my questions remain without response.

So you would put me down for my convolutedness? Come on guys, cut a guy a break already. Is there anything else you'd like to criticize? So I try hard to convey a point, you sure don't make it easy either do you?

And please do tell me what I haven't yet answered- I asked, I'm still waiting to hear which I never answered. Please be very specific, as in quoting the questions you asked so they aren't taken out of context too, and I promise an answer to each that I haven't answered, fair enough? By the way, are you the moderator?

Lucky One · August 6, 2015

"If you sent in a MS65, one you *knew* was a MS65 (collectors can have opinions just as valid as pros, can they not? Afterall, experience is experience whether you obtain it professionally or casually, is it not?), and it came back MS63 or MS64, you would send it back in for a proper grade, would you not?"

Opinions are not absolutes, whether it is yours or the TPGs. You would not "know" it was an MS 65 - you would only believe it to be. Would you send it back for a "proper grade" if the TPG gave it an MS 65+ or MS 66?

so then what you're saying is that when that group of 3 put *their* opinion on it, they *do* know? Again, I see some silly contradictions out here in the forums. By the way- give me a stack of slabs and cover the grades and I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. I have been grading proficiently for forty years and have handled millions of coins in my lifetime so I'm fairly confident that I have seen enough to get most right. I rarely send in coins for authentication that come back graded lower than I expected and often get them back graded hgher,or in straight graded slabs when I expected a details slab.

Would you like to sit down and do a double blind with me? When I make a statement, I don't say it unless I mean it. At this point in my collectng career, I thnk I could do it in my sleep. Please don't question my ability or my motives here or take my challenge and put your money where your opinions are.

As for the sarcasm, no, what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded? I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty- would you? Like you said- why should I *know* better that the 'experts'.

And one last question- why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word? I'll sell you a hundred rare coins (as in not modern mass produced but perfect coins) in slabs that are overgraded if you really believe they are graded properly. I could probably scan the floor of the upcoming ANA show and find at least a hundred coins that are overgraded or have problems in straight grade slabs, and they are almost always dscounted heavily (the first clue that there are problems). Maybe that shows that 'market grading' is just propaganda to cover for so many mstakes in slabs...

Interesting. You say "I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. " And yet the experts, themselves, don't agree with each other that high of a percent of the time.

You have also indicated in this thread that the experts make plenty of mistakes. So are you making the same mistakes in agreeing with them so often? Or are you right and they, wrong when you disagree with them?

You continue to talk about grades being "right" (when they are at least somewhat subjective and inconsistent). Yet at the same time, you question "why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word?" Which is it - are they "right" or should they not have the final word because they might not be "right"?

You asked "..what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded?" Someone who cares about the integrity of grading, as you claim you do.

Mark, it is surprising to me that a professional of your stature would word a reply like this. I offered my challenge- would you wager a year's wages to find out if I can do what I say I can? I have been doing it for a long time (my very first break-out was one of my very first slabs- it was a 1865 PCGS MS63 3 cent piece, I graded it MS65, pre-sold it before I even sent it in, and it came back MS65 as expected. Sold it to Ellsemere Numis, maybe they still have record of it, it was about 1987), and yes, almost every single time I have resubmitted a coin that I believed to be undergraded, it has come back at the grade that I opined.

As for the reply to the last item you quoted- it is very interesting how you conveniently discarded my qualifying statement "I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty".

Yes sir, I wrote that, it's up there, go look, I guess it shows that you people have selectively read what you wanted to read and ignored the important parts.

I feel like I'm in a tag team match but it's verbal instead of physical, but I never would have expected you to be involved like this. I honestly am ashamed of what this hobby has become, and shocked that some people who I previously had high esteem for would get involved like you have here. It is unfair to take a person's quotes so grossly out of context, but here it is in black and white for all to see. And what was that you said about integrity? Does professional integrity mean anything to you sir? I guess this will be the last straw for me and like your teammate said, time to shut it down so no one else can read it for themselves and form their own opinions. What a sad day in America...

And one last time- it isn't about *grading*. Please read what I wrote, I made it clear that I meant proficiency in grading series, not coins in general. Anyone can grade post 1860 coins without much difficulty, with the exceptions of a few specific coins in each series...

I asked serious questions and pointed out that some of your positions appear to be contradictory. I am sorry if you were bothered by my direct manner.

No, I would not take you up on your bet, but not because I think you would have any realistic chance of winning.

I'm not sure what the point was of your two point upgrade example.

I didn't include "gross mistake and done out of honesty" because I have no idea what you consider a "gross mistake" vs. a non-gross one and I don't believe it can be determined whether the "mistake" was "done out of honesty". Curiously, how would you go about determining that? Edited to add: My presumption would be that any "mistakes" were honest ones.

Yes, professional integrity means a great deal to me and I am proud of the way I have conducted my business in this industry/hobby during the past 36 years.

You're a orofessional and you dn't know what the meaning of gross mistake is? It means a coin that is obviously mislabeled, so obvious that it should have been caught by the clerks, what else could it mean? It is the same kind of language the grading services use in their guaranty statements.

As for your reason for not taking my bet- if you're so sure I'm wrong, and I offered you a venue to prove you are right, why wouldn't you take me up on it? I'll tell you what- if it is professional integrity, I won't make you take my money if I lose, I'll only take yours if I win, fair enough? I'm not a fool and don't make bets often, but I made it not to brag, but to demonstrate my willingness to put *MY* money where my mouth is. Why did I add the example of the MS63 3 cent piece? Because it goes to show that I was able to recognize an undergraded coin even 30 years ago and get the *real* grade, the one I *knew* was proper. Maybe I was wrong, they just overgraded it on the resubmission?

The integrity being questioned was your own Mark. Yes, you have a great rep in the business, but that doesn't change the fact that you purposely omitted the part of the quote that exonerates me from your insinuation that I lack integrity and honesty. The sceond sentence clearly shows that that insinuation couldn't be further from the truth. All the 'splainin in the world doesn't change that fact.

World Colonial · August 6, 2015

He doesn't get it. At all.

The one thing I believe he doesn't get is that some here just disagree with him on the significance of this topic in this thread.

no, I got it guys, and I agree that most don't think it is a significant problem, and I agree, if it is taken in the general 'grading' context. But I didn't ask if graders should be graded, I asked if graders should be proficient and experienced in the coins they are tasked with grading. I have had a lot of words out in my mouth and I have been grossly or unfairly misquoted by several individuals here and that is the source of the confusion imho. I'm not asking anyone to agree, I simply put it out there for discussion, but I certainly didn;t expect to be mis-quoted and misunderstood by so many. I didn't mean to insult anyone when I said that most here are probably modern coin collectors, I said it simply to point out that it is very hard to understand something if you have never handled the types of coins that *I* am referring to. That doesn't seem to be so hard to understand, so I'm flabbergasted to see so many here struggling with the concept. I have full respect for those who disagree with me, I just wish they wouldn't take my posts out of context. Thanks for the reply...

Fair enough.

You gave some examples such as colonials where this is apparently a problem. I don't know if it is (I have reviewed them in auctions occassionally but have no interest in ever buying one) but can see that because of the variety of coins in this area, there is probably more inconsistency than in every US federal series.

In an earlier post, I asked you what level of accuracy you expect and how much more do you think everyone should have to pay for it. You didn't answer.

I provided an example from one of my series because I believe it is one which is not graded consistently, even though maybe the two coins I illustrated might be. The point being that regardless of the assigned grades, it frequently isn't hard to see which coin is better and pay accordingly.

Even if you get what you want, I don't ever see the day where uninformed buyers are going to be able to rely on the assigned grade in buying the types of coins you used as examples. I agree it would reduce the risk somewhat but concurrenlty don't believe that someone who doesn't know much about collecting has any business buying expensive colonial coinage or the other examples you provided anyway. I have even less sympathy for the collector who is more knowledgeable but does it anyway. For those who are more knowledgeable, I believe it is mostly a non-problem.

In closing, I will repeat the same unpopular view I have in the past. The greatest risk in losing money in buying expensive US coins is not because of the grade, but because of the price spreads between grades and the absolute price level of US coins generally.

MarkFeld · August 6, 2015

"If you sent in a MS65, one you *knew* was a MS65 (collectors can have opinions just as valid as pros, can they not? Afterall, experience is experience whether you obtain it professionally or casually, is it not?), and it came back MS63 or MS64, you would send it back in for a proper grade, would you not?"

Opinions are not absolutes, whether it is yours or the TPGs. You would not "know" it was an MS 65 - you would only believe it to be. Would you send it back for a "proper grade" if the TPG gave it an MS 65+ or MS 66?

so then what you're saying is that when that group of 3 put *their* opinion on it, they *do* know? Again, I see some silly contradictions out here in the forums. By the way- give me a stack of slabs and cover the grades and I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. I have been grading proficiently for forty years and have handled millions of coins in my lifetime so I'm fairly confident that I have seen enough to get most right. I rarely send in coins for authentication that come back graded lower than I expected and often get them back graded hgher,or in straight graded slabs when I expected a details slab.

Would you like to sit down and do a double blind with me? When I make a statement, I don't say it unless I mean it. At this point in my collectng career, I thnk I could do it in my sleep. Please don't question my ability or my motives here or take my challenge and put your money where your opinions are.

As for the sarcasm, no, what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded? I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty- would you? Like you said- why should I *know* better that the 'experts'.

And one last question- why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word? I'll sell you a hundred rare coins (as in not modern mass produced but perfect coins) in slabs that are overgraded if you really believe they are graded properly. I could probably scan the floor of the upcoming ANA show and find at least a hundred coins that are overgraded or have problems in straight grade slabs, and they are almost always dscounted heavily (the first clue that there are problems). Maybe that shows that 'market grading' is just propaganda to cover for so many mstakes in slabs...

Interesting. You say "I'll bet I agree with the experts at least 95 our of 100, that is how confident I am in my ability to *know*. " And yet the experts, themselves, don't agree with each other that high of a percent of the time.

You have also indicated in this thread that the experts make plenty of mistakes. So are you making the same mistakes in agreeing with them so often? Or are you right and they, wrong when you disagree with them?

You continue to talk about grades being "right" (when they are at least somewhat subjective and inconsistent). Yet at the same time, you question "why do so many out here think that the slabs have the final word?" Which is it - are they "right" or should they not have the final word because they might not be "right"?

You asked "..what insufficiently_thoughtful_person would send a coin back that is overgraded?" Someone who cares about the integrity of grading, as you claim you do.

Mark, it is surprising to me that a professional of your stature would word a reply like this. I offered my challenge- would you wager a year's wages to find out if I can do what I say I can? I have been doing it for a long time (my very first break-out was one of my very first slabs- it was a 1865 PCGS MS63 3 cent piece, I graded it MS65, pre-sold it before I even sent it in, and it came back MS65 as expected. Sold it to Ellsemere Numis, maybe they still have record of it, it was about 1987), and yes, almost every single time I have resubmitted a coin that I believed to be undergraded, it has come back at the grade that I opined.

As for the reply to the last item you quoted- it is very interesting how you conveniently discarded my qualifying statement "I wouldn't unless it was a gross mistake and done out of honesty".

Yes sir, I wrote that, it's up there, go look, I guess it shows that you people have selectively read what you wanted to read and ignored the important parts.

I feel like I'm in a tag team match but it's verbal instead of physical, but I never would have expected you to be involved like this. I honestly am ashamed of what this hobby has become, and shocked that some people who I previously had high esteem for would get involved like you have here. It is unfair to take a person's quotes so grossly out of context, but here it is in black and white for all to see. And what was that you said about integrity? Does professional integrity mean anything to you sir? I guess this will be the last straw for me and like your teammate said, time to shut it down so no one else can read it for themselves and form their own opinions. What a sad day in America...

And one last time- it isn't about *grading*. Please read what I wrote, I made it clear that I meant proficiency in grading series, not coins in general. Anyone can grade post 1860 coins without much difficulty, with the exceptions of a few specific coins in each series...

I asked serious questions and pointed out that some of your positions appear to be contradictory. I am sorry if you were bothered by my direct manner.

No, I would not take you up on your bet, but not because I think you would have any realistic chance of winning.

I'm not sure what the point was of your two point upgrade example.

I didn't include "gross mistake and done out of honesty" because I have no idea what you consider a "gross mistake" vs. a non-gross one and I don't believe it can be determined whether the "mistake" was "done out of honesty". Curiously, how would you go about determining that? Edited to add: My presumption would be that any "mistakes" were honest ones.

Yes, professional integrity means a great deal to me and I am proud of the way I have conducted my business in this industry/hobby during the past 36 years.

You're a orofessional and you dn't know what the meaning of gross mistake is? It means a coin that is obviously mislabeled, so obvious that it should have been caught by the clerks, what else could it mean? It is the same kind of language the grading services use in their guaranty statements.

As for your reason for not taking my bet- if you're so sure I'm wrong, and I offered you a venue to prove you are right, why wouldn't you take me up on it? I'll tell you what- if it is professional integrity, I won't make you take my money if I lose, I'll only take yours if I win, fair enough? I'm not a fool and don't make bets often, but I made it not to brag, but to demonstrate my willingness to put *MY* money where my mouth is. Why did I add the example of the MS63 3 cent piece? Because it goes to show that I was able to recognize an undergraded coin even 30 years ago and get the *real* grade, the one I *knew* was proper. Maybe I was wrong, they just overgraded it on the resubmission?

The integrity being questioned was your own Mark. Yes, you have a great rep in the business, but that doesn't change the fact that you purposely omitted the part of the quote that exonerates me from your insinuation that I lack integrity and honesty. The sceond sentence clearly shows that that insinuation couldn't be further from the truth. All the 'splainin in the world doesn't change that fact.

You make things (like "right" grade and "gross mistake" sound so clear and easy.

Is a "gross mistake" when you think the grade is off by more than 1 point? 2 points? 3 points? The coin looks lightly cleaned but still receives a grade? The coin looks moderately cleaned but still receives a grade? The coin looks heavily cleaned, but still receives a grade?

I have no idea where you would draw the line on "gross mistake". Again, that is why I omitted it as part of your "qualifying statement" - it was too ambiguous to make a meaningful difference. That and I had/have no clue how you would determine whether such a mistake was "done out of honesty".

Your willingness to bet that you would agree with the graders "at least 95 out of 100" tells me that you are extremely overconfident, unrealistic and lacking logic. How could you agree with them significantly more frequently than they agree with themselves?

Feel free to question my integrity all you want. Enjoy your collecting.

Mr.Mcknowitall · August 6, 2015

He doesn't get it. At all.

The one thing I believe he doesn't get is that some here just disagree with him on the significance of this topic in this thread.

no, I got it guys, and I agree that most don't think it is a significant problem, and I agree, if it is taken in the general 'grading' context. But I didn't ask if graders should be graded, I asked if graders should be proficient and experienced in the coins they are tasked with grading. I have had a lot of words out in my mouth and I have been grossly or unfairly misquoted by several individuals here and that is the source of the confusion imho. I'm not asking anyone to agree, I simply put it out there for discussion, but I certainly didn;t expect to be mis-quoted and misunderstood by so many. I didn't mean to insult anyone when I said that most here are probably modern coin collectors, I said it simply to point out that it is very hard to understand something if you have never handled the types of coins that *I* am referring to. That doesn't seem to be so hard to understand, so I'm flabbergasted to see so many here struggling with the concept. I have full respect for those who disagree with me, I just wish they wouldn't take my posts out of context. Thanks for the reply...

Somebody has to tell you: You have not been grossly or unfairly treated about anything. You had a few individuals that were very straightforward in their reply to a very confusing post by you, and a continuing accusation by you toward anybody replying, that they are rude, and grossly or unfairly misquoting you, or attacking you, or just dumb because they don't get what you are saying.

The fact is, you don't get what you are saying, because you can not articulate, and very time someone gives a reason for, and describes their, interpretation, you attack the person as if they are dumazzzs because they don't get what you are saying.

I gave you every chance to do so. I was very courteous. You replied in the most rude and crude manner anyone could imagine. You dodged the questions. You have dodged everybody's questions and observations. You simply whine and play the nobody understands me card and the I am so misunderstood card.

This isn't an elementary school playground. There were serious posts by very serious and knowledgeable numismatists. You chose to insult them, and you chose to coyly sidestep their questions and direct observations that more than adequately addressed the subject you so terribly presented. You continue to do so, with the post above and your follow on post directed toward me, and every post you made to anybody else.

You intimate nobody around here has ever held the coins you have, and nobody has the knowledge you have, and are ignorant about the subject you present, and are nothing but "modern" collectors, and on and on and on, and you are the numismatic savior and rescuer of all the abused no nothing collectors.

Do you believe your own ignorant statement that nobody has handled rare coins of the type you are referring to (what ever the heck that is-nobody knows because you have not presented any logical statement that anybody can decipher)? Do you even know where you are posting and who is reading your posts and the level of incredible knowledge they have, and the rarities they have owned, and/or handled, and or sold?

In my opinion you are a pompous and crude insulting person, that is in need of declaring the top of the hill belongs to you in the knowledge game.

You are so misunderstood. Baloney. You are just another fat mouth. I am shocked nobody stated it already.

And, you have yet to answer my courteous and direct questions that are addressing exactly what you are stating is the subject you have so inartfully presented. You are just another boaster that has to insult, because you believe that projects superiority of position. You are full of krap.

You could benefit from a Degree in Humbleness. You are the type of person that gives the hobby a bad name.

My follow on post made a suggestion of how to solve the goal you seek.

Maybe you can spend that oodles and oodles of double eagles that you mentioned to try and impress everybody, to get yourself started.

Yes, you appear to me to be similar to Cal, except you do have the tendency to use words with more syllables, even if used in the incorrect context of the thought trying to be conveyed by you.

Lucky One · August 6, 2015

He doesn't get it. At all.

The one thing I believe he doesn't get is that some here just disagree with him on the significance of this topic in this thread.

no, I got it guys, and I agree that most don't think it is a significant problem, and I agree, if it is taken in the general 'grading' context. But I didn't ask if graders should be graded, I asked if graders should be proficient and experienced in the coins they are tasked with grading. I have had a lot of words out in my mouth and I have been grossly or unfairly misquoted by several individuals here and that is the source of the confusion imho. I'm not asking anyone to agree, I simply put it out there for discussion, but I certainly didn;t expect to be mis-quoted and misunderstood by so many. I didn't mean to insult anyone when I said that most here are probably modern coin collectors, I said it simply to point out that it is very hard to understand something if you have never handled the types of coins that *I* am referring to. That doesn't seem to be so hard to understand, so I'm flabbergasted to see so many here struggling with the concept. I have full respect for those who disagree with me, I just wish they wouldn't take my posts out of context. Thanks for the reply...

Fair enough.

You gave some examples such as colonials where this is apparently a problem. I don't know if it is (I have reviewed them in auctions occassionally but have no interest in ever buying one) but can see that because of the variety of coins in this area, there is probably more inconsistency than in every US federal series.

In an earlier post, I asked you what level of accuracy you expect and how much more do you think everyone should have to pay for it. You didn't answer.

I provided an example from one of my series because I believe it is one which is not graded consistently, even though maybe the two coins I illustrated might be. The point being that regardless of the assigned grades, it frequently isn't hard to see which coin is better and pay accordingly.

Even if you get what you want, I don't ever see the day where uninformed buyers are going to be able to rely on the assigned grade in buying the types of coins you used as examples. I agree it would reduce the risk somewhat but concurrenlty don't believe that someone who doesn't know much about collecting has any business buying expensive colonial coinage or the other examples you provided anyway. I have even less sympathy for the collector who is more knowledgeable but does it anyway. For those who are more knowledgeable, I believe it is mostly a non-problem.

In closing, I will repeat the same unpopular view I have in the past. The greatest risk in losing money in buying expensive US coins is not because of the grade, but because of the price spreads between grades and the absolute price level of US coins generally.

to address that last point first, that rule can't apply when a person is assembling a complete date/mint run, can it? Example in point- I collect liberty half eagles. The true collector understands there could and likely will be losses and keeps collecting, so it isn't so much a problem on the buying end. The reason I said that first is to use the example to make my point- I buy many coins raw and like anyone who maintains a registry set, I am forced to put them in holders to add them to the set. Since I am forced to pay to grade these coins, I should expect that only people who have a long history and experience with early liberty half eagles are the only people entrusted to grade the coins that I send in. Same thing goes for any number of series that were struck in the days before technology made everything so uniform. If a coin is pre-1860, it likely has many anomolies within each issue that a grader would need to be aware of, as I pointed out in example after example. That is the thrust of my argument, not that I disagree with every day technical grading, although I think the concept of 'market grading' is BS and those are weasel words to make us think we're not being fooled when they tell us an obviously cleaned gem anything is actually a nice MS63 or 64 when it should be in a details holder.

Yes, I agree with you, people who don;t know what is in the slab shouldn't be buying coins, BUT THEY DO, and if the original stated goal of the professional grading services was to protect the ignorant so as to make coins trade like stocks, then they obviously have failed us miserably, haven't they, and the only people who would reasonably get hurt financially with these is those who they purport to protect- the ignorant. And it would be disingenuous to suggest that they have no right to buy, say, a AU58 1842 half eagle since it is such a rare and investment quality coin, right? Sad that so many who read my post didn't get this simple point- it doesn't matter what *we* would do as experienced collectors- *we* don;t need a slab or someone else's opinion, do we?

you pointed out that you understand my complaint when it comes to colonials because "can see that because of the variety of coins in this area, there is probably more inconsistency than in every US federal series" and then completely discounted the same problems "in every US federal series", but I have given several common examples in coins struck from 1810 to 1859, and I could think of more post-1860 but the major problems are in pre-1860 coinage and especially pre-steam. (mid-1830's)

As for the questions I didn't answer- please forgive, maybe I was in a hurry and forgot, maybe I just didn;t see it, maybe my reply wasn't coherent, I'm human. No, I don;t think this should raise the cost of grading- why would it when they grade literally hundreds of coins a day? Being proficient as a requirement of grading specific coins shouldn't be a oroblem- my bet is that both top tier services have experts in every single series, but the question remains- do they utilize ONLY the ones who are experts in grading specific issues or not. I was hoping that an NGC rep would step in with an answer but the lack of clarification leaves us all wondering how they do it and who is allowed to grade what. My guess is that you grade whatever comes through your group that day whether you know it well or not, in the hope that in the group there will be enough experience to sway the rest. But we don't know, thus the question. No insults intended, just plain logic. Thanks for your reply, I hope we understand each other better now my friend...

Lucky One · August 6, 2015

He doesn't get it. At all.

The one thing I believe he doesn't get is that some here just disagree with him on the significance of this topic in this thread.

no, I got it guys, and I agree that most don't think it is a significant problem, and I agree, if it is taken in the general 'grading' context. But I didn't ask if graders should be graded, I asked if graders should be proficient and experienced in the coins they are tasked with grading. I have had a lot of words out in my mouth and I have been grossly or unfairly misquoted by several individuals here and that is the source of the confusion imho. I'm not asking anyone to agree, I simply put it out there for discussion, but I certainly didn;t expect to be mis-quoted and misunderstood by so many. I didn't mean to insult anyone when I said that most here are probably modern coin collectors, I said it simply to point out that it is very hard to understand something if you have never handled the types of coins that *I* am referring to. That doesn't seem to be so hard to understand, so I'm flabbergasted to see so many here struggling with the concept. I have full respect for those who disagree with me, I just wish they wouldn't take my posts out of context. Thanks for the reply...

Somebody has to tell you: You have not been grossly or unfairly treated about anything. You had a few individuals that were very straightforward in their reply to a very confusing post by you, and a continuing accusation by you toward anybody replying, that they are rude, and grossly or unfairly misquoting you, or attacking you, or just dumb because they don't get what you are saying.

The fact is, you don't get what you are saying, because you can not articulate, and very time someone gives a reason for, and describes their, interpretation, you attack the person as if they are dumazzzs because they don't get what you are saying.

I gave you every chance to do so. I was very courteous. You replied in the most rude and crude manner anyone could imagine. You dodged the questions. You have dodged everybody's questions and observations. You simply whine and play the nobody understands me card and the I am so misunderstood card.

This isn't an elementary school playground. There were serious posts by very serious and knowledgeable numismatists. You chose to insult them, and you chose to coyly sidestep their questions and direct observations that more than adequately addressed the subject you so terribly presented. You continue to do so, with the post above and your follow on post directed toward me, and every post you made to anybody else.

You intimate nobody around here has ever held the coins you have, and nobody has the knowledge you have, and are ignorant about the subject you present, and are nothing but "modern" collectors, and on and on and on, and you are the numismatic savior and rescuer of all the abused no nothing collectors.

Do you believe your own ignorant statement that nobody has handled rare coins of the type you are referring to (what ever the heck that is-nobody knows because you have not presented any logical statement that anybody can decipher)? Do you even know where you are posting and who is reading your posts and the level of incredible knowledge they have, and the rarities they have owned, and/or handled, and or sold?

In my opinion you are a pompous and crude insulting person, that is in need of declaring the top of the hill belongs to you in the knowledge game.

You are so misunderstood. Baloney. You are just another fat mouth. I am shocked nobody stated it already.

And, you have yet to answer my courteous and direct questions that are addressing exactly what you are stating is the subject you have so inartfully presented. You are just another boaster that has to insult, because you believe that projects superiority of position. You are full of krap.

You could benefit from a Degree in Humbleness. You are the type of person that gives the hobby a bad name.

My follow on post made a suggestion of how to solve the goal you seek.

Maybe you can spend that oodles and oodles of double eagles that you mentioned to try and impress everybody, to get yourself started.

Yes, you appear to me to be similar to Cal, except you do have the tendency to use words with more syllables, even if used in the incorrect context of the thought trying to be conveyed by you.

another personal attack, you make my point for me. Fat mouth. Your screen name explains it all. If you have nithing constructive to add, why say anything? Are you the resident cyberbully? I've dealt with so many like you in my life it makes me sick to admit I'm a fellow human. I give the hobby a bad name by offering an idea and you call me names, but you're the good guy? Wow, I guess my parents didn;t teach me to bow to bullies...

by the way- I didn't need a solution, I was offering one for everyone else's consideration. I can't help it if your IQ doesn't allow comprehension of simple concepts and I won;t offer any apologies for it sir.

Next attack please.....

Archived

Shouldn't PCGS & NGC be required to certify their certifiers?

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