Shouldn't PCGS & NGC be required to certify their certifiers?

[Lucky One]

by the way- thanks for sharing this. I saw this in his inventory but I actually agree with the grade. This date came sharp, but the obverse shows moderate wear. You'd be sick to hear what I paid for my AU details piece, and it isn't harshly cleaned like many in details holders. Also, that is one of my pet peeves- gold is very difficult to grade and it drives me crazy to see an obviously cleaned coin in a straight graded holder. But I don't mind finding uncleaned coins in cleaned details slabs. The last one got broken out and right back in for regrade with my last registry submission and it did come back in a straigh-grade slab.

[Hard Times]

and after the latest round of posts, which I humbly appreciate, it seems you are all still stuck on the general grading of couns while I am saying specific types of coins should require more experience before being given the task of grading them. Yes I agree with those who say the difference in opinions is so slight that it doesn't matter in the broad sense, but for specific issues, and I have given very clear examples that have been totally ignored, the graders need a LOT more knowledge and hands-on experience with them and the evidence I have offered should be enough for any reasonable person to understand. As I have said, a person well versed in one series may know absolutely nothing about another. As for price differences being negligible, try collecting no-motto half eagles and then tell me there isn't a problem. The difference between a VF25 and a VF30 can be a thousand dollars. Grading a solid AU 1859-C half eagle VF, as one WOULD be inclined to do if they didn't know that is they way they were struck IS the type of problem I am talking about here, not the typical sour grapes complaint from those who expect a MS65 but only get a 64. Yes, they are opinions, and they are arguable, but they are based on a very subjective point of view. A striking or die anomaly for a particular issues, like the 1810 bust half dollar or the 1859-C half eagle, is an objective point of view, and one that can't be had without the knowledge that the dies for these two coins had problems, period. Again, maybe the title was a poor choice or words or the phrase just didn't convey what I meant it to convey, but I don't want graders certified, I want graders to be proficient in ALL of the coins that their supervisors task them with grading. I hope that is the last time I need to clarify the meaning of the post...

 

While you are correct that subtleties for certain dates and mintmarks or varieties can result of over and undergrading by the TPG's, expert knowledge by the specialist is a great opportunity to benefit from this. So I am not sure why you are so concerned about it and why you want all graders to grade the same way for all series, which is what I think you mean by proficient. I provide a link to an example of this. Whomever bought this coin from Winter (now who could have that been ) greatly benefited from the undergrading of this particular variety in terns of value for the buck paid. Nothing wrong with that and is why knowledge is king. You can look at many coins of the same denomination, date and mintmark and see a wide range of variance, but they still may be mostly graded correctly according to most informed numismatists. This is why grading is an art and is subjective, it is up to the individual to learn. There are some impressive graders on these boards such as Mark Feld, Bill Jones, and Jason Poe to name just 3 of many. All can help anyone here to learn and advise. But keep in mind the subjectivity in grading will never mean that all assessed grades for all coins will be consistent for all graders, and hence the proficiency you advocate for.

 

Best, HT

 

http://raregoldcoins.com/inventory/sold/new-5-00-1839-d-ngc-vf35-cac

 

thanks for the input but even though it is useful info and I agree with it, it's off topic- I'm advocating for graders who are very experienced in the coins that they are charged with grading, not the subtleties of 'grading'. I didn't put grader in the title to avoid this, but people still are stuck on everything but what I intended...

 

Now you definitely are confusing me. On one hand, you say that the professional graders at TPG's should be experts to grade all series. But on the other hand, when I bring up the issue of the subtleties within a series for the reasons stated, you say I am off topic. How can one be an expert in each series but not know the subtleties, like weak strike for a certain variety and how it affects the grade? Off topic. Hmm.....

 

Best, HT

[Lucky One]

and after the latest round of posts, which I humbly appreciate, it seems you are all still stuck on the general grading of couns while I am saying specific types of coins should require more experience before being given the task of grading them. Yes I agree with those who say the difference in opinions is so slight that it doesn't matter in the broad sense, but for specific issues, and I have given very clear examples that have been totally ignored, the graders need a LOT more knowledge and hands-on experience with them and the evidence I have offered should be enough for any reasonable person to understand. As I have said, a person well versed in one series may know absolutely nothing about another. As for price differences being negligible, try collecting no-motto half eagles and then tell me there isn't a problem. The difference between a VF25 and a VF30 can be a thousand dollars. Grading a solid AU 1859-C half eagle VF, as one WOULD be inclined to do if they didn't know that is they way they were struck IS the type of problem I am talking about here, not the typical sour grapes complaint from those who expect a MS65 but only get a 64. Yes, they are opinions, and they are arguable, but they are based on a very subjective point of view. A striking or die anomaly for a particular issues, like the 1810 bust half dollar or the 1859-C half eagle, is an objective point of view, and one that can't be had without the knowledge that the dies for these two coins had problems, period. Again, maybe the title was a poor choice or words or the phrase just didn't convey what I meant it to convey, but I don't want graders certified, I want graders to be proficient in ALL of the coins that their supervisors task them with grading. I hope that is the last time I need to clarify the meaning of the post...

 

While you are correct that subtleties for certain dates and mintmarks or varieties can result of over and undergrading by the TPG's, expert knowledge by the specialist is a great opportunity to benefit from this. So I am not sure why you are so concerned about it and why you want all graders to grade the same way for all series, which is what I think you mean by proficient. I provide a link to an example of this. Whomever bought this coin from Winter (now who could have that been ) greatly benefited from the undergrading of this particular variety in terns of value for the buck paid. Nothing wrong with that and is why knowledge is king. You can look at many coins of the same denomination, date and mintmark and see a wide range of variance, but they still may be mostly graded correctly according to most informed numismatists. This is why grading is an art and is subjective, it is up to the individual to learn. There are some impressive graders on these boards such as Mark Feld, Bill Jones, and Jason Poe to name just 3 of many. All can help anyone here to learn and advise. But keep in mind the subjectivity in grading will never mean that all assessed grades for all coins will be consistent for all graders, and hence the proficiency you advocate for.

 

Best, HT

 

http://raregoldcoins.com/inventory/sold/new-5-00-1839-d-ngc-vf35-cac

 

thanks for the input but even though it is useful info and I agree with it, it's off topic- I'm advocating for graders who are very experienced in the coins that they are charged with grading, not the subtleties of 'grading'. I didn't put grader in the title to avoid this, but people still are stuck on everything but what I intended...

 

Now you definitely are confusing me. On one hand, you say that the professional graders at TPG's should be experts to grade all series. But on the other hand, when I bring up the issue of the subtleties within a series for the reasons stated, you say I am off topic. How can one be an expert in each series but not know the subtleties, like weak strike for a certain variety and how it affects the grade? Off topic. Hmm.....

 

Best, HT

 

you are confused because you didn't read what I wrote. Please allow me quote it again:

 

"I'm advocating for graders who are very experienced in the coins that they are charged with grading, not the subtleties of 'grading'."

 

I never said graders should be experts on all series, you read that into it. I said that graders should be required to be proficient in the types of coins that they are tasked with grading.

 

I have replied to several people here who did the same thing you did- misunderstood what was written. Please read it again and you'll see exactly what I have been trying to say all along, and I have elaborated at length. It seems to me that people read what they wanted to read, not what I wrote. I can't make people understand, all I can do is lay out my reasoning and hope people read it exactly as I wrote it...

[cpm9ball]

When all else fails, simple prose usually works best.

 

Chris

[Lucky One]

When all else fails, simple prose usually works best.

 

Chris

 

but, but, but I'm a terrible writer!

[cpm9ball]

When all else fails, simple prose usually works best.

 

Chris

 

but, but, but I'm a terrible writer!

 

Ah, but it remains to be seen whether you are a good Typewriter or not.

 

Chris

[Lucky One]

When all else fails, simple prose usually works best.

 

Chris

 

but, but, but I'm a terrible writer!

 

Ah, but it remains to be seen whether you are a good Typewriter or not.

 

Chris

 

guess that depends on the type

[MarkFeld]

and after the latest round of posts, which I humbly appreciate, it seems you are all still stuck on the general grading of couns while I am saying specific types of coins should require more experience before being given the task of grading them. Yes I agree with those who say the difference in opinions is so slight that it doesn't matter in the broad sense, but for specific issues, and I have given very clear examples that have been totally ignored, the graders need a LOT more knowledge and hands-on experience with them and the evidence I have offered should be enough for any reasonable person to understand. As I have said, a person well versed in one series may know absolutely nothing about another. As for price differences being negligible, try collecting no-motto half eagles and then tell me there isn't a problem. The difference between a VF25 and a VF30 can be a thousand dollars. Grading a solid AU 1859-C half eagle VF, as one WOULD be inclined to do if they didn't know that is they way they were struck IS the type of problem I am talking about here, not the typical sour grapes complaint from those who expect a MS65 but only get a 64. Yes, they are opinions, and they are arguable, but they are based on a very subjective point of view. A striking or die anomaly for a particular issues, like the 1810 bust half dollar or the 1859-C half eagle, is an objective point of view, and one that can't be had without the knowledge that the dies for these two coins had problems, period. Again, maybe the title was a poor choice or words or the phrase just didn't convey what I meant it to convey, but I don't want graders certified, I want graders to be proficient in ALL of the coins that their supervisors task them with grading. I hope that is the last time I need to clarify the meaning of the post...

 

While you are correct that subtleties for certain dates and mintmarks or varieties can result of over and undergrading by the TPG's, expert knowledge by the specialist is a great opportunity to benefit from this. So I am not sure why you are so concerned about it and why you want all graders to grade the same way for all series, which is what I think you mean by proficient. I provide a link to an example of this. Whomever bought this coin from Winter (now who could have that been ) greatly benefited from the undergrading of this particular variety in terns of value for the buck paid. Nothing wrong with that and is why knowledge is king. You can look at many coins of the same denomination, date and mintmark and see a wide range of variance, but they still may be mostly graded correctly according to most informed numismatists. This is why grading is an art and is subjective, it is up to the individual to learn. There are some impressive graders on these boards such as Mark Feld, Bill Jones, and Jason Poe to name just 3 of many. All can help anyone here to learn and advise. But keep in mind the subjectivity in grading will never mean that all assessed grades for all coins will be consistent for all graders, and hence the proficiency you advocate for.

 

Best, HT

 

http://raregoldcoins.com/inventory/sold/new-5-00-1839-d-ngc-vf35-cac

 

thanks for the input but even though it is useful info and I agree with it, it's off topic- I'm advocating for graders who are very experienced in the coins that they are charged with grading, not the subtleties of 'grading'. I didn't put grader in the title to avoid this, but people still are stuck on everything but what I intended...

 

Now you definitely are confusing me. On one hand, you say that the professional graders at TPG's should be experts to grade all series. But on the other hand, when I bring up the issue of the subtleties within a series for the reasons stated, you say I am off topic. How can one be an expert in each series but not know the subtleties, like weak strike for a certain variety and how it affects the grade? Off topic. Hmm.....

 

Best, HT

 

you are confused because you didn't read what I wrote. Please allow me quote it again:

 

"I'm advocating for graders who are very experienced in the coins that they are charged with grading, not the subtleties of 'grading'."

 

I never said graders should be experts on all series, you read that into it. I said that graders should be required to be proficient in the types of coins that they are tasked with grading.

 

I have replied to several people here who did the same thing you did- misunderstood what was written. Please read it again and you'll see exactly what I have been trying to say all along, and I have elaborated at length. It seems to me that people read what they wanted to read, not what I wrote. I can't make people understand, all I can do is lay out my reasoning and hope people read it exactly as I wrote it...

 

I guess we disagree, as I believe that in most cases, graders already are "proficient in the types of coins that they are tasked with grading.".

 

And if you feel that a number of those who have replied to you misunderstood what you wrote, please consider there might be a good reason for that. Along with that is the possibility that you are mistaken about people reading what they "want" to read. Perhaps they are simply reading what your words lead them to read.

 

 

[seventee]

LuckyOne wrote in the OP:

 

In short, would you agree it is time to certify the certifiers? These companies make huge amounts of money for what is actually a very quick review so why shouldn't they be required to be experts at what they are certifying?

 

Don't be shy- please share your thoughts and ideas with the rest of us...

 

One is paying for an opinion by using the TPG to grade their coins. I would expect that for the TPG to designate a grader as "expert" for each and every series (and type within a series?) is not cost-effective,nor would it be efficient for them.

 

I will grade my coin myself before sending in for grading at the TPG,which TPG,no matter.Nine times out of ten the coin comes back to me with the same exact grade that I assigned to the coin before sending it in for grading.A success rate of 90% has been and still is acceptable to me.

 

Neither TPG is better than the other,in my opinion.They both have their pluses and minuses.If my perception becomes "the minuses are outweighing the pluses" then I simply won't use that service anymore for grading my coins.

 

Rather than the TPG spending money on certification programs for its graders,i would much rather see the TPG spending its money on evolving technology and tools to help thwart counterfeiting and fraud involving its holders.

 

Whether my coin gets say,"XF40" from the TPG rather than the "XF45" grade that I think it really might deserve (after looking at pictures of coins in my Coin World magazine ) is of little concern to me.More concerning to me would be my coin getting an "AU" or "VF" designation from the TPG when I think the coin is just a "solid XF." Coin collectors should learn to grade coins for themselves before getting involved with TPG's,in my opinion.

 

No,i don't think the TPG's should be required to certify their certifiers.Who would or should be doing the "requiring?" Who would be doing the certifying of coin graders?

 

 

 

 

[Lucky One]

LuckyOne wrote in the OP:

 

In short, would you agree it is time to certify the certifiers? These companies make huge amounts of money for what is actually a very quick review so why shouldn't they be required to be experts at what they are certifying?

 

Don't be shy- please share your thoughts and ideas with the rest of us...

 

One is paying for an opinion by using the TPG to grade their coins. I would expect that for the TPG to designate a grader as "expert" for each and every series (and type within a series?) is not cost-effective,nor would it be efficient for them.

 

I will grade my coin myself before sending in for grading at the TPG,which TPG,no matter.Nine times out of ten the coin comes back to me with the same exact grade that I assigned to the coin before sending it in for grading.A success rate of 90% has been and still is acceptable to me.

 

Neither TPG is better than the other,in my opinion.They both have their pluses and minuses.If my perception becomes "the minuses are outweighing the pluses" then I simply won't use that service anymore for grading my coins.

 

Rather than the TPG spending money on certification programs for its graders,i would much rather see the TPG spending its money on evolving technology and tools to help thwart counterfeiting and fraud involving its holders.

 

Whether my coin gets say,"XF40" from the TPG rather than the "XF45" grade that I think it really might deserve (after looking at pictures of coins in my Coin World magazine ) is of little concern to me.More concerning to me would be my coin getting an "AU" or "VF" designation from the TPG when I think the coin is just a "solid XF." Coin collectors should learn to grade coins for themselves before getting involved with TPG's,in my opinion.

 

No,i don't think the TPG's should be required to certify their certifiers.Who would or should be doing the "requiring?" Who would be doing the certifying of coin graders?

 

 

 

 

another one who missed the point... sigh

 

I am a proficient grader, know exactly what I am looking at and have never had any problem with evaluating any coin. It is aggravating to see identical coins in slabs with different grades on them simply because one set of graders weren't knowledgeable enough to grade it properly and one set was. It is also aggravating to spend nearly fifty bucks per coin (after all costs are included) to receive coins that were graded by people obviously lacking knowledge of what they are looking at. If you don't understand this, please read all of my various explanations.

 

If everyone had read and tried to fully comprehend the meaning without reading anything into or out of it, perhaps you'd have understood. Of all the people who replied, only one demonstrated in his reply that he got the true meaning of the post.

 

Thanks for your reply though, I really don't have much disagreement with anyone, but the replies didn't address the problem I described...

 

[Lucky One]

and after the latest round of posts, which I humbly appreciate, it seems you are all still stuck on the general grading of couns while I am saying specific types of coins should require more experience before being given the task of grading them. Yes I agree with those who say the difference in opinions is so slight that it doesn't matter in the broad sense, but for specific issues, and I have given very clear examples that have been totally ignored, the graders need a LOT more knowledge and hands-on experience with them and the evidence I have offered should be enough for any reasonable person to understand. As I have said, a person well versed in one series may know absolutely nothing about another. As for price differences being negligible, try collecting no-motto half eagles and then tell me there isn't a problem. The difference between a VF25 and a VF30 can be a thousand dollars. Grading a solid AU 1859-C half eagle VF, as one WOULD be inclined to do if they didn't know that is they way they were struck IS the type of problem I am talking about here, not the typical sour grapes complaint from those who expect a MS65 but only get a 64. Yes, they are opinions, and they are arguable, but they are based on a very subjective point of view. A striking or die anomaly for a particular issues, like the 1810 bust half dollar or the 1859-C half eagle, is an objective point of view, and one that can't be had without the knowledge that the dies for these two coins had problems, period. Again, maybe the title was a poor choice or words or the phrase just didn't convey what I meant it to convey, but I don't want graders certified, I want graders to be proficient in ALL of the coins that their supervisors task them with grading. I hope that is the last time I need to clarify the meaning of the post...

 

While you are correct that subtleties for certain dates and mintmarks or varieties can result of over and undergrading by the TPG's, expert knowledge by the specialist is a great opportunity to benefit from this. So I am not sure why you are so concerned about it and why you want all graders to grade the same way for all series, which is what I think you mean by proficient. I provide a link to an example of this. Whomever bought this coin from Winter (now who could have that been ) greatly benefited from the undergrading of this particular variety in terns of value for the buck paid. Nothing wrong with that and is why knowledge is king. You can look at many coins of the same denomination, date and mintmark and see a wide range of variance, but they still may be mostly graded correctly according to most informed numismatists. This is why grading is an art and is subjective, it is up to the individual to learn. There are some impressive graders on these boards such as Mark Feld, Bill Jones, and Jason Poe to name just 3 of many. All can help anyone here to learn and advise. But keep in mind the subjectivity in grading will never mean that all assessed grades for all coins will be consistent for all graders, and hence the proficiency you advocate for.

 

Best, HT

 

http://raregoldcoins.com/inventory/sold/new-5-00-1839-d-ngc-vf35-cac

 

thanks for the input but even though it is useful info and I agree with it, it's off topic- I'm advocating for graders who are very experienced in the coins that they are charged with grading, not the subtleties of 'grading'. I didn't put grader in the title to avoid this, but people still are stuck on everything but what I intended...

 

Now you definitely are confusing me. On one hand, you say that the professional graders at TPG's should be experts to grade all series. But on the other hand, when I bring up the issue of the subtleties within a series for the reasons stated, you say I am off topic. How can one be an expert in each series but not know the subtleties, like weak strike for a certain variety and how it affects the grade? Off topic. Hmm.....

 

Best, HT

 

you are confused because you didn't read what I wrote. Please allow me quote it again:

 

"I'm advocating for graders who are very experienced in the coins that they are charged with grading, not the subtleties of 'grading'."

 

I never said graders should be experts on all series, you read that into it. I said that graders should be required to be proficient in the types of coins that they are tasked with grading.

 

I have replied to several people here who did the same thing you did- misunderstood what was written. Please read it again and you'll see exactly what I have been trying to say all along, and I have elaborated at length. It seems to me that people read what they wanted to read, not what I wrote. I can't make people understand, all I can do is lay out my reasoning and hope people read it exactly as I wrote it...

 

I guess we disagree, as I believe that in most cases, graders already are "proficient in the types of coins that they are tasked with grading.".

 

And if you feel that a number of those who have replied to you misunderstood what you wrote, please consider there might be a good reason for that. Along with that is the possibility that you are mistaken about people reading what they "want" to read. Perhaps they are simply reading what your words lead them to read.

 

 

with all respect Mark, maybe you don't see all the glaring mistakes I see every time I go to a coin show. If it was easy to upload photos to illustrate what I am talking about since words aren't getting through, I'd show you several glaring examples. It isn't a serious problem in any dealer's mind that I have spoken to, but it sure is to every collector of the coins I collect that I have spoken to. What good is a 3rd party graded coin if the graders don't understand what they are looking at? I guess we'll have to leave it as it is because some of you just refuse to understand the severity of the problem.

 

As for me, no biggie, I just break out the mistakes that are in my favor and sell them raw, I have never had a problem getting what a coin is worth from a knowlwdgeable collector anyway, but if I want to put the coin in a registry set, I'm forced to settle for whatever is on the holder.

 

The mistakes the other way will sit in dealer inventories for a long time though, like the 1842 NGC AU58 half eagle with the big honking scratch down the bust and the two other scratches on the upper right hand obverse that was just returned to the dealer who sold it to me a couple weeks back. He admitted fault for not disclosing them in the description and paid the return costs but it still was a real hassle and tied my $$$ up for a few weeks.

 

HA sold that coin TWICE by the way, it is in your archives, cert# 1825733-005. Heritage didn't mention the scratches either, in either auction. I wonder why...

[MarkFeld]

and after the latest round of posts, which I humbly appreciate, it seems you are all still stuck on the general grading of couns while I am saying specific types of coins should require more experience before being given the task of grading them. Yes I agree with those who say the difference in opinions is so slight that it doesn't matter in the broad sense, but for specific issues, and I have given very clear examples that have been totally ignored, the graders need a LOT more knowledge and hands-on experience with them and the evidence I have offered should be enough for any reasonable person to understand. As I have said, a person well versed in one series may know absolutely nothing about another. As for price differences being negligible, try collecting no-motto half eagles and then tell me there isn't a problem. The difference between a VF25 and a VF30 can be a thousand dollars. Grading a solid AU 1859-C half eagle VF, as one WOULD be inclined to do if they didn't know that is they way they were struck IS the type of problem I am talking about here, not the typical sour grapes complaint from those who expect a MS65 but only get a 64. Yes, they are opinions, and they are arguable, but they are based on a very subjective point of view. A striking or die anomaly for a particular issues, like the 1810 bust half dollar or the 1859-C half eagle, is an objective point of view, and one that can't be had without the knowledge that the dies for these two coins had problems, period. Again, maybe the title was a poor choice or words or the phrase just didn't convey what I meant it to convey, but I don't want graders certified, I want graders to be proficient in ALL of the coins that their supervisors task them with grading. I hope that is the last time I need to clarify the meaning of the post...

 

While you are correct that subtleties for certain dates and mintmarks or varieties can result of over and undergrading by the TPG's, expert knowledge by the specialist is a great opportunity to benefit from this. So I am not sure why you are so concerned about it and why you want all graders to grade the same way for all series, which is what I think you mean by proficient. I provide a link to an example of this. Whomever bought this coin from Winter (now who could have that been ) greatly benefited from the undergrading of this particular variety in terns of value for the buck paid. Nothing wrong with that and is why knowledge is king. You can look at many coins of the same denomination, date and mintmark and see a wide range of variance, but they still may be mostly graded correctly according to most informed numismatists. This is why grading is an art and is subjective, it is up to the individual to learn. There are some impressive graders on these boards such as Mark Feld, Bill Jones, and Jason Poe to name just 3 of many. All can help anyone here to learn and advise. But keep in mind the subjectivity in grading will never mean that all assessed grades for all coins will be consistent for all graders, and hence the proficiency you advocate for.

 

Best, HT

 

http://raregoldcoins.com/inventory/sold/new-5-00-1839-d-ngc-vf35-cac

 

thanks for the input but even though it is useful info and I agree with it, it's off topic- I'm advocating for graders who are very experienced in the coins that they are charged with grading, not the subtleties of 'grading'. I didn't put grader in the title to avoid this, but people still are stuck on everything but what I intended...

 

Now you definitely are confusing me. On one hand, you say that the professional graders at TPG's should be experts to grade all series. But on the other hand, when I bring up the issue of the subtleties within a series for the reasons stated, you say I am off topic. How can one be an expert in each series but not know the subtleties, like weak strike for a certain variety and how it affects the grade? Off topic. Hmm.....

 

Best, HT

 

you are confused because you didn't read what I wrote. Please allow me quote it again:

 

"I'm advocating for graders who are very experienced in the coins that they are charged with grading, not the subtleties of 'grading'."

 

I never said graders should be experts on all series, you read that into it. I said that graders should be required to be proficient in the types of coins that they are tasked with grading.

 

I have replied to several people here who did the same thing you did- misunderstood what was written. Please read it again and you'll see exactly what I have been trying to say all along, and I have elaborated at length. It seems to me that people read what they wanted to read, not what I wrote. I can't make people understand, all I can do is lay out my reasoning and hope people read it exactly as I wrote it...

 

I guess we disagree, as I believe that in most cases, graders already are "proficient in the types of coins that they are tasked with grading.".

 

And if you feel that a number of those who have replied to you misunderstood what you wrote, please consider there might be a good reason for that. Along with that is the possibility that you are mistaken about people reading what they "want" to read. Perhaps they are simply reading what your words lead them to read.

 

 

with all respect Mark, maybe you don't see all the glaring mistakes I see every time I go to a coin show. If it was easy to upload photos to illustrate what I am talking about since words aren't getting through, I'd show you several glaring examples. It isn't a serious problem in any dealer's mind that I have spoken to, but it sure is to every collector of the coins I collect that I have spoken to. What good is a 3rd party graded coin if the graders don't understand what they are looking at? I guess we'll have to leave it as it is because some of you just refuse to understand the severity of the problem.

 

As for me, no biggie, I just break out the mistakes that are in my favor and sell them raw, I have never had a problem getting what a coin is worth from a knowlwdgeable collector anyway, but if I want to put the coin in a registry set, I'm forced to settle for whatever is on the holder.

 

The mistakes the other way will sit in dealer inventories for a long time though, like the 1842 NGC AU58 half eagle with the big honking scratch down the bust and the two other scratches on the upper right hand obverse that was just returned to the dealer who sold it to me a couple weeks back. He admitted fault for not disclosing them in the description and paid the return costs but it still was a real hassle and tied my $$$ up for a few weeks.

 

HA sold that coin TWICE by the way, it is in your archives, cert# 1825733-005. Heritage didn't mention the scratches either, in either auction. I wonder why...

 

With all due respect, I have seen my fair share (and then some) of certified coins, at shows and elsewhere.

 

You seem to be making a number of assumptions. Among them:

 

You seem to assume that if you feel a grade is a mistake, it must be so.

 

You seem to assume that grading is more objective than it is.

 

You seem to assume that if a grade looks wrong to you, that the graders weren't knowledgeable enough to grade properly.

 

I have seen many grades that I thought were absurd. But guess what? Many of them were arrived at by some of the sharpest graders in the world - it had nothing to do with lack of knowledge on their part.

[RWB]

... a broken record in the digital age....

[Afterword]

Megalomaniac - or more likely just ornery.

[RWB]

Isn't that in Nashville? "The Grand Ole Ornery" or something like that....

[World Colonial]

It should be evident to you by now that a number of posters just disagree with you, just as they do with many of my posts. It isn't a lack of comprehension.

 

I am one of them because I don't see that any of the examples you provided are more than an isolated issue. Isolated to mean not a small number of incorrectly graded coins in the aggregate but a low proportion of the coins graded, though yes I agree it is (presumably) concentrated in some series more than others.

 

What error rate do you consider acceptable and how much more are you willing to pay to get it? Or do you believe it won't increase the cost? What about others who don't think it's worth it? Should they have to pay for it anyway?

[Nutmeg Coin]

The business manager ultimately calls the shots, and determines what is "market acceptable". NGC, PCGS, ICG and ANACS have top notch graders and SEGS has one of the best variety experts. If you required periodic tests, certification, licensing and disqualified every grader who had broken the law, or had made certain mistakes; in short was basically a corporate eunuch and monk, how viable do you suppose their business would be? You have dozens of positives and negatives on many coins, which will people live with, which will be deal breakers, which can be remedied through conservation, etc..? Variety is the spice of life.

[dragon]

<<< Shouldn't PCGS & NGC be required to certify their certifiers? >>>

 

 

pcgs has changed their "standards" so many times over the years they have little credibility left regardless of what they do at this point IMO. They have outlived their usefulness many years ago, and are now simply ringing the register on new gimmicks every few months. pcgs proclaims themselves "the standard of the rare coin industry" yet I would call them simply the standard of ever changing standards.

 

 

NGC on the other hand I believe has remained far more consistent and credible over the years and I have far more confidence in their services and opinions......certified certifiers or otherwise :-)

 

 

 

[coinman1794]

I'd like to ask a question to the collecting community: With all due respect to the professionals and scholars, should graders ad finalizers at the grading services be required to be certified in the series they grade?

 

I know it seems like a funny question, but a brain surgeon isn't qualified to perform heart surgery, or even foot surgery for that matter, so why should a Lincoln cent expert be allowed to grade Morgan dollars and bust halves, or vice versa?

 

What I'm suggesting is that there are far too many coins in slabs that the graders obviously didn't understand and that caused an erroneous grade to be issued. The evidence is on every bourse floor, in every dealer's inventory, in every collector's collection, so it obviously can not be denied.

 

How can a coin with 100% full mint luster be graded XF40, or even lower? As a collector who has studied bust halves I can tell you that many sunken dies produced bust halves with very poor central detail, and the silver that didn't get struck up into the die would obviously look just like the rough planchet, so to the untrained and uneducated eye, it looks like wear and gets a circulated designation based on not the amount of wear (since there actually was none) but on the lack of detail where the coin didn't strike up. An inexperienced grader wouldn't know this, couldn't comprehend it because they had no prior experience with it. I could offer ten more easy examples in other series but you get the point.

 

For the past several years I have been collecting and studying liberty half eagles and I have run into the exact same phenomenom again- coins that have striking or die anomolies are misgraded everywhere I look and I see as many AU coins in mint state slabs as mint state coins in AU slabs as well as the same kinds of mistakes that I described for the bust halves.

 

In short, would you agree it is time to certify the certifiers? These companies make huge amounts of money for what is actually a very quick review so why shouldn't they be required to be experts at what they are certifying?

 

Don't be shy- please share your thoughts and ideas with the rest of us...

 

Certifying graders is an impossible task for myriad reasons, and the graders are presumably following the house standards of the companies employing them. I do think they could do a much better job, across the board, on Bust halves.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I'd like to ask a question to the collecting community: With all due respect to the professionals and scholars, should graders ad finalizers at the grading services be required to be certified in the series they grade?

 

Isn't this what CAC is doing?

 

No.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

A useless observation and maybe a question or 2:

 

You mentioned the TPGs/4PG(s) as needed. I am not certain I understand what that means, to you.

 

You mention that you are proficient. If so, what benefit is any TPG/4PG(s) to you?

 

You mention certification/re-certification and, if I understand the thrust of your position, it is that the Grader be without fault and have a degree of infallibility that would withstand in-depth and comparative monitoring of the talent/expertise/acceptable level of infallibility acceptance by his/her peers. If I am interpreting correctly, how is this to be accomplished, given that the basis of the endeavor is human opinion?

 

I would expect that there is a level of knowledge that you have familiarized yourself with, in order to differentiate between Market Grading and Technical Grading (I use caps only as an academic identifier for the conversation). Accordingly, in which venue do you wish to have the considerations of your position considered? With either venue, what is the need that you profess is needed, if a person is proficient?

[Lucky One]

poppycock. you believe what you want to believe. My bet is that with very few exceptions, none of the responders collects anything but moderns. Most probably have never held a 'rare' coin in their hands, let alone understand what I am talking about. I've purchased several hundred haf eagles in the past several years and can tell you from that experience that the problem is much larger than most realize. What's worse is the fact that I have returned mostly slabbed material, rarely do I need to return a raw coin. Thse coins average a couple thousand dollars per piece so we're not talking about peanuts here. Someone is getting ripped off, or these coins just keep getting returned to the same dishonest dealers. One thing is sure though- I don't think I'm great, I am not a narccicist and I would gladly stack my grading ability against any challenger. My bet is most here wouldn't if they had to back the challenge with their collections.

 

And one more time- please read everything that I wrote- again, you're stuck on stupid if you think I'm talking about grading in general- I have said several times that I have full respect for the graders and agree with MOST of the grades I have had assigned to the coins that I have submitted over the years, and where there were the most disagreements, the 'professionals' actually overgraded my coins. I'm definitely not crying about the grading, you guys have done me right in that department.

 

The professionals obviously would like to sweep it under the rug. And Mark, I'm shocked that you would do so because you sell these coins. And I noticed that there was no reponse to the coin I gave the cert # for. What's with that Mark? Do you think it is OK to sell and resell the same mistakes in holders without describing the defects, just waiting fo the first sucker to stick to? And where is the ANA in all of this? Silent, and fighting amongst themselves for the past couple decades as well. True 'professionals'...

 

This hobby is shameful and some of it's leaders are not much different than the scum that inhabits the Congress. Any problem, no matter how small a percentage of the whole, is a problem when coins are misdescribed in holders intended to PROTECT people from financial loss. I'm going to leave it at that.

 

You are all entitled to your opinions, but like what the Congress has brought down on your shoulders in the past decade, you WILL all feel the cost of this sooner or later, and your hobby will be in shambles after the smartest among us sell our collections and find something else to do wth our time. As for the readers who 'invest' in mass produced modern junk in over-hyped slabs- enjoy the next crash because you will be leading the way. I have been around this hobby for a long, long time and I have seen it's gut, up close and personal. I think this will be the last series I collect and then I'll move onto the next phase of my life with a new hobby where people are hinest with themselves, open minded and willing to see reality for what it is.

 

To those who say it is impossible to clean up the mess and fix the problems, again, poppycock. We can fix only what we're willing to fix. I know this because I have been a professional troubleshooter and problem solver my entire adult life. I have never been stuck on stupid, it isn't in me- I fix stupid and have for a lifetime. I have never hiddn from a problem in my life and don't understand why people do, but it sems they do en masse these days.

 

To the very few who truly understood what was saying here, thank you for not jumping in with the wolf pack here. To those who did- shame on you. Best to all of you, and no, I'm not taking a bit of it personally (except the personal insults from a few immature people who thought it fair game to try to smear a fellow hobbyist), but I do feel sorry for those who would smear the messenger. At least I have the long experience to prove what I say.

 

I feel for my favorite hobby but not those who have contributed to it's destruction over the past few decades...

[Lucky One]

A useless observation and maybe a question or 2:

 

You mentioned the TPGs/4PG(s) as needed. I am not certain I understand what that means, to you.

 

You mention that you are proficient. If so, what benefit is any TPG/4PG(s) to you?

 

You mention certification/re-certification and, if I understand the thrust of your position, it is that the Grader be without fault and have a degree of infallibility that would withstand in-depth and comparative monitoring of the talent/expertise/acceptable level of infallibility acceptance by his/her peers. If I am interpreting correctly, how is this to be accomplished, given that the basis of the endeavor is human opinion?

 

I would expect that there is a level of knowledge that you have familiarized yourself with, in order to differentiate between Market Grading and Technical Grading (I use caps only as an academic identifier for the conversation). Accordingly, in which venue do you wish to have the considerations of your position considered? With either venue, what is the need that you profess is needed, if a person is proficient?

 

I've said already that this has no effect on me other than the fact that if I want to put my coins in a registry set, I have to suffer the lack of knowledge of the graders who *I* pay to put them in slabs. I wanted to point out a problem of inexperience with some certifiers so that thse who DON'T know, would. But again, IF you had read what I wrote and understood that (I have elaborated so many times that I can't see how I could still be so misunderstood) and you would see that I am NOT talking about the grading, but the lack of knowledge in specific series to even give an honest professional opinion. We pay for professionals' opinions but we obvioulsly don't always get what we pay for. As for 'market' grading- that is nothing more than a term they use to cover for their lack of experience. A coin HAS a grade, a real grade, and the very concept of market grading is silly in my mind- a grade is a grade, and a coin, any coin, can be seen for what it is- it is a physical thing and the true grade is based on what is there. As for 'technical' grade- they are all technical grades if that is the word you want to use. Market grading is not grading but a means of comparative valuation. Talk about nutty- I think I should just walk away from it, it is too dishonest for me to care any more...

[Lucky One]

A useless observation and maybe a question or 2:

 

You mention certification/re-certification and, if I understand the thrust of your position, it is that the Grader be without fault and have a degree of infallibility that would withstand in-depth and comparative monitoring of the talent/expertise/acceptable level of infallibility acceptance by his/her peers. If I am interpreting correctly, how is this to be accomplished, given that the basis of the endeavor is human opinion?

 

to be more clear on this specific point- you, like most here in this discussion, have misconstrued my meaning. I do not expect someone to be a better grader- I have said several times now that I have been pleasd with almost every 'grade' I have ever paid for. I've been lucky though, judging by what I see in slabs on the bourse floor over the years and the percentage of slabbed coins (yes, top two slabbers, not NTC or NNC) that I have had to return over the past several years. But what you are missing here is that I am talking about certifiers being qualified to make the 'professional' judgments on certain difficult issues. If you were a diamond buyer, you'd want a diamond grader grading your diamonds vs a grader who knows only emeralds or rubies, right? If you were a NASCAR driver, you'd fill your staff with NASCAR expets, not drag race experts, right? Then why do we accept inexperienced graders giving us the opinions we pay so dearly for? I'm tired of tryint to explain such a simple concept. Figure it out for yourselves (not you personally, your questions are good ones, but they were unnecessary if you read the whole thread to deiscern my meaning) because the 'pros' here probably don;t want you to know anything- why else would so many attack the messenger in such a serious situation?

 

I think that many here are right- this is not *my* problem, it is only the problem of those who don't know what they are lookijg at in the slabs that they buy. As David Bowers, a true numismatic genius and one of the most honest coin dealers who ever lived always said: buy the book before the coin. I might add, don't waste your money on the slab- we never needd them before they came along, they are just one more leech on your numismatic budget. Buy a few good books and find an honest dealer to help you assemble your collection because ignorance and slabs are a recipe for disaster...

[Lucky One]

<<< Shouldn't PCGS & NGC be required to certify their certifiers? >>>

 

 

pcgs has changed their "standards" so many times over the years they have little credibility left regardless of what they do at this point IMO. They have outlived their usefulness many years ago, and are now simply ringing the register on new gimmicks every few months. pcgs proclaims themselves "the standard of the rare coin industry" yet I would call them simply the standard of ever changing standards.

 

 

NGC on the other hand I believe has remained far more consistent and credible over the years and I have far more confidence in their services and opinions......certified certifiers or otherwise :-)

 

 

 

at this point, I have to agree with you on all points. long experience dictates...

[Lucky One]

The business manager ultimately calls the shots, and determines what is "market acceptable". NGC, PCGS, ICG and ANACS have top notch graders and SEGS has one of the best variety experts. If you required periodic tests, certification, licensing and disqualified every grader who had broken the law, or had made certain mistakes; in short was basically a corporate eunuch and monk, how viable do you suppose their business would be? You have dozens of positives and negatives on many coins, which will people live with, which will be deal breakers, which can be remedied through conservation, etc..? Variety is the spice of life.

 

again, you read into this something that I never said. Read it all and you will. Best...

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

poppycock. you believe what you want to believe. My bet is that with very few exceptions, none of the responders collects anything but moderns. Most probably have never held a 'rare' coin in their hands, let alone understand what I am talking about. I've purchased several hundred haf eagles in the past several years and can tell you from that experience that the problem is much larger than most realize. What's worse is the fact that I have returned mostly slabbed material, rarely do I need to return a raw coin. Thse coins average a couple thousand dollars per piece so we're not talking about peanuts here. Someone is getting ripped off, or these coins just keep getting returned to the same dishonest dealers. One thing is sure though- I don't think I'm great, I am not a narccicist and I would gladly stack my grading ability against any challenger. My bet is most here wouldn't if they had to back the challenge with their collections.

 

And one more time- please read everything that I wrote- again, you're stuck on stupid if you think I'm talking about grading in general- I have said several times that I have full respect for the graders and agree with MOST of the grades I have had assigned to the coins that I have submitted over the years, and where there were the most disagreements, the 'professionals' actually overgraded my coins. I'm definitely not crying about the grading, you guys have done me right in that department.

 

The professionals obviously would like to sweep it under the rug. And Mark, I'm shocked that you would do so because you sell these coins. And I noticed that there was no reponse to the coin I gave the cert # for. What's with that Mark? Do you think it is OK to sell and resell the same mistakes in holders without describing the defects, just waiting fo the first sucker to stick to? And where is the ANA in all of this? Silent, and fighting amongst themselves for the past couple decades as well. True 'professionals'...

 

This hobby is shameful and some of it's leaders are not much different than the scum that inhabits the Congress. Any problem, no matter how small a percentage of the whole, is a problem when coins are misdescribed in holders intended to PROTECT people from financial loss. I'm going to leave it at that.

 

You are all entitled to your opinions, but like what the Congress has brought down on your shoulders in the past decade, you WILL all feel the cost of this sooner or later, and your hobby will be in shambles after the smartest among us sell our collections and find something else to do wth our time. As for the readers who 'invest' in mass produced modern junk in over-hyped slabs- enjoy the next crash because you will be leading the way. I have been around this hobby for a long, long time and I have seen it's gut, up close and personal. I think this will be the last series I collect and then I'll move onto the next phase of my life with a new hobby where people are hinest with themselves, open minded and willing to see reality for what it is.

 

To those who say it is impossible to clean up the mess and fix the problems, again, poppycock. We can fix only what we're willing to fix. I know this because I have been a professional troubleshooter and problem solver my entire adult life. I have never been stuck on stupid, it isn't in me- I fix stupid and have for a lifetime. I have never hiddn from a problem in my life and don't understand why people do, but it sems they do en masse these days.

 

To the very few who truly understood what was saying here, thank you for not jumping in with the wolf pack here. To those who did- shame on you. Best to all of you, and no, I'm not taking a bit of it personally (except the personal insults from a few immature people who thought it fair game to try to smear a fellow hobbyist), but I do feel sorry for those who would smear the messenger. At least I have the long experience to prove what I say.

 

I feel for my favorite hobby but not those who have contributed to it's destruction over the past few decades...

 

Poppycock? Stupid?

 

Logical questions offend you?

 

Logical questions smear you?

 

They were simple enough to answer. Why would you respond with illogical logic?

 

The questions were designed to allow you to express a clear picture for what your thrust is, since you repeatedly stated that nobody gets it.

 

You had a courteous opportunity to do so, and I thought you should be extended the opportunity.

 

At this point, I can only conclude your thoughts and musings are of no value.

 

You are very similar to a fellow named Cal.

 

Are you accusing me of insulting you, because of my questions?

 

I do not envision any advantage to the hobby having you as a meaningful participant, given your diatribe.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

A useless observation and maybe a question or 2:

 

You mention certification/re-certification and, if I understand the thrust of your position, it is that the Grader be without fault and have a degree of infallibility that would withstand in-depth and comparative monitoring of the talent/expertise/acceptable level of infallibility acceptance by his/her peers. If I am interpreting correctly, how is this to be accomplished, given that the basis of the endeavor is human opinion?

 

to be more clear on this specific point- you, like most here in this discussion, have misconstrued my meaning. I do not expect someone to be a better grader- I have said several times now that I have been pleasd with almost every 'grade' I have ever paid for. I've been lucky though, judging by what I see in slabs on the bourse floor over the years and the percentage of slabbed coins (yes, top two slabbers, not NTC or NNC) that I have had to return over the past several years. But what you are missing here is that I am talking about certifiers being qualified to make the 'professional' judgments on certain difficult issues. If you were a diamond buyer, you'd want a diamond grader grading your diamonds vs a grader who knows only emeralds or rubies, right? If you were a NASCAR driver, you'd fill your staff with NASCAR expets, not drag race experts, right? Then why do we accept inexperienced graders giving us the opinions we pay so dearly for? I'm tired of tryint to explain such a simple concept. Figure it out for yourselves (not you personally, your questions are good ones, but they were unnecessary if you read the whole thread to deiscern my meaning) because the 'pros' here probably don;t want you to know anything- why else would so many attack the messenger in such a serious situation?

 

I think that many here are right- this is not *my* problem, it is only the problem of those who don't know what they are lookijg at in the slabs that they buy. As David Bowers, a true numismatic genius and one of the most honest coin dealers who ever lived always said: buy the book before the coin. I might add, don't waste your money on the slab- we never needd them before they came along, they are just one more leech on your numismatic budget. Buy a few good books and find an honest dealer to help you assemble your collection because ignorance and slabs are a recipe for disaster...

 

I misconstrued nothing. Your lack of command of the English language and complete failure of logic posits and your own inability to articulate and your chip on your shoulder cause you the very problem you seek from others: Understanding of your position.

 

You are intent on a mission that nobody can decipher except you. I wish you a soft landing at the end of such a meaningless journey.

[Lucky One]

and after the latest round of posts, which I humbly appreciate, it seems you are all still stuck on the general grading of couns while I am saying specific types of coins should require more experience before being given the task of grading them. Yes I agree with those who say the difference in opinions is so slight that it doesn't matter in the broad sense, but for specific issues, and I have given very clear examples that have been totally ignored, the graders need a LOT more knowledge and hands-on experience with them and the evidence I have offered should be enough for any reasonable person to understand. As I have said, a person well versed in one series may know absolutely nothing about another. As for price differences being negligible, try collecting no-motto half eagles and then tell me there isn't a problem. The difference between a VF25 and a VF30 can be a thousand dollars. Grading a solid AU 1859-C half eagle VF, as one WOULD be inclined to do if they didn't know that is they way they were struck IS the type of problem I am talking about here, not the typical sour grapes complaint from those who expect a MS65 but only get a 64. Yes, they are opinions, and they are arguable, but they are based on a very subjective point of view. A striking or die anomaly for a particular issues, like the 1810 bust half dollar or the 1859-C half eagle, is an objective point of view, and one that can't be had without the knowledge that the dies for these two coins had problems, period. Again, maybe the title was a poor choice or words or the phrase just didn't convey what I meant it to convey, but I don't want graders certified, I want graders to be proficient in ALL of the coins that their supervisors task them with grading. I hope that is the last time I need to clarify the meaning of the post...

 

While you are correct that subtleties for certain dates and mintmarks or varieties can result of over and undergrading by the TPG's, expert knowledge by the specialist is a great opportunity to benefit from this. So I am not sure why you are so concerned about it and why you want all graders to grade the same way for all series, which is what I think you mean by proficient. I provide a link to an example of this. Whomever bought this coin from Winter (now who could have that been ) greatly benefited from the undergrading of this particular variety in terns of value for the buck paid. Nothing wrong with that and is why knowledge is king. You can look at many coins of the same denomination, date and mintmark and see a wide range of variance, but they still may be mostly graded correctly according to most informed numismatists. This is why grading is an art and is subjective, it is up to the individual to learn. There are some impressive graders on these boards such as Mark Feld, Bill Jones, and Jason Poe to name just 3 of many. All can help anyone here to learn and advise. But keep in mind the subjectivity in grading will never mean that all assessed grades for all coins will be consistent for all graders, and hence the proficiency you advocate for.

 

Best, HT

 

http://raregoldcoins.com/inventory/sold/new-5-00-1839-d-ngc-vf35-cac

 

thanks for the input but even though it is useful info and I agree with it, it's off topic- I'm advocating for graders who are very experienced in the coins that they are charged with grading, not the subtleties of 'grading'. I didn't put grader in the title to avoid this, but people still are stuck on everything but what I intended...

 

Now you definitely are confusing me. On one hand, you say that the professional graders at TPG's should be experts to grade all series. But on the other hand, when I bring up the issue of the subtleties within a series for the reasons stated, you say I am off topic. How can one be an expert in each series but not know the subtleties, like weak strike for a certain variety and how it affects the grade? Off topic. Hmm.....

 

Best, HT

 

you are confused because you didn't read what I wrote. Please allow me quote it again:

 

"I'm advocating for graders who are very experienced in the coins that they are charged with grading, not the subtleties of 'grading'."

 

I never said graders should be experts on all series, you read that into it. I said that graders should be required to be proficient in the types of coins that they are tasked with grading.

 

I have replied to several people here who did the same thing you did- misunderstood what was written. Please read it again and you'll see exactly what I have been trying to say all along, and I have elaborated at length. It seems to me that people read what they wanted to read, not what I wrote. I can't make people understand, all I can do is lay out my reasoning and hope people read it exactly as I wrote it...

 

I guess we disagree, as I believe that in most cases, graders already are "proficient in the types of coins that they are tasked with grading.".

 

And if you feel that a number of those who have replied to you misunderstood what you wrote, please consider there might be a good reason for that. Along with that is the possibility that you are mistaken about people reading what they "want" to read. Perhaps they are simply reading what your words lead them to read.

 

 

with all respect Mark, maybe you don't see all the glaring mistakes I see every time I go to a coin show. If it was easy to upload photos to illustrate what I am talking about since words aren't getting through, I'd show you several glaring examples. It isn't a serious problem in any dealer's mind that I have spoken to, but it sure is to every collector of the coins I collect that I have spoken to. What good is a 3rd party graded coin if the graders don't understand what they are looking at? I guess we'll have to leave it as it is because some of you just refuse to understand the severity of the problem.

 

As for me, no biggie, I just break out the mistakes that are in my favor and sell them raw, I have never had a problem getting what a coin is worth from a knowlwdgeable collector anyway, but if I want to put the coin in a registry set, I'm forced to settle for whatever is on the holder.

 

The mistakes the other way will sit in dealer inventories for a long time though, like the 1842 NGC AU58 half eagle with the big honking scratch down the bust and the two other scratches on the upper right hand obverse that was just returned to the dealer who sold it to me a couple weeks back. He admitted fault for not disclosing them in the description and paid the return costs but it still was a real hassle and tied my $$$ up for a few weeks.

 

HA sold that coin TWICE by the way, it is in your archives, cert# 1825733-005. Heritage didn't mention the scratches either, in either auction. I wonder why...

 

With all due respect, I have seen my fair share (and then some) of certified coins, at shows and elsewhere.

 

You seem to be making a number of assumptions. Among them:

 

You seem to assume that if you feel a grade is a mistake, it must be so.

 

You seem to assume that grading is more objective than it is.

 

You seem to assume that if a grade looks wrong to you, that the graders weren't knowledgeable enough to grade properly.

 

I have seen many grades that I thought were absurd. But guess what? Many of them were arrived at by some of the sharpest graders in the world - it had nothing to do with lack of knowledge on their part.

 

and once again Mark, they are NOT assumptions- they are very experienced opinions, you know, like the things the slabbers sell us when we pay for certification? I have seen my fair share too sir- I have spent twenty grand per month on this set for the past several years. That is a LOT of coins and a LOT of experience, in just one field. In my lifetime, I have assembled sets of gem Liberty nickels, choice seated dimes and half dimes, nearly complete sets of all early bust series, a nearly complete set of half dollars from 1794 through Franklins, many sets of choice to gem Morgan dollars, a set of liberty double eagles etc, etc, etc. Along the way I have met and conversed with many true collectors, and I can tell you that many have shared my concerns. It seems that the only people who ever disagree with me are those who sell slabs exclusively for a living. Many dealers don't know how to grade these days, don;t have a clue what is in the holder and don't care as long as they can profit from it. I called a professional dealer who has a retail store about a MS61 Dahlonega half eagle last week. My forst question, as usual, was does the con match the grade, and thankfully I was talking to an honest dealers and his reply was something like this "well, to me it looks like a really nice slider but it is a MS61 in the holder". What is that Mark? Is this your idea of professional integrity? He saved me some money on return shipping but he still would have sold the coin without disclosing in his advertisement what he told me on the phone, and had someone bid and won that auction, another person would be either inconvenienced or ripped off, not to know his error until many years later when his grieving widow sold off hs collection. That is not my idea of professional integrity, and defending the indefensible like so many do out here is just plain wrong imho. Had the graders who slabbed that coin understood this series, they would have marked it AU58 instead of MS61 and the hobby woukd be sound. An isolated case? I have a few more if you'd like to hear them. Like the 1842 AU58 with the big obvious honking scratch right down the bust that I pointed out last post but was ignored. I know that most graders are proficient at what they are tasked with grading, I;m no fool, but after 60+ MILLION coins have been slabbed, even a small percentage means a LOT of mstakes, and ANYTHING we can do to reduce the number of errors would go far to restoring people's respect and faith in this failed institution you call professional grading. And to set the perspective for the readers here, if only 1% of all slabs are errors, that is 600,000 bad slabs! With a typical error rate in most technical fields of over 1%, ts is a very conservative estimate. It could be much worse, and sometimes seems to be to me, but I'm not you typical collector, I've seen a LOT of coins in my collecting career sir, and my long experience says there is a major problem. Anyone can hide their head in the sand, but it will never make the problem go away. You must forst admit there is a problem before the oroblem can be addressed. I'm just trying to expose the problem. I see many here don't care, so I obviosly am wasting my time here. No hard feelings, it's your show now...

[Afterword]

"If you were a diamond buyer, you'd want a diamond grader grading your diamonds vs a grader who knows only emeralds or rubies, right? If you were a NASCAR driver, you'd fill your staff with NASCAR expets, not drag race experts, right? Then why do we accept inexperienced graders giving us the opinions we pay so dearly for? I'm tired of tryint to explain such a simple concept."

 

 

 

 

You are right - it is a simple concept. So much so that is extremely difficult to understand how a reasonably intelligent person such as yourself can believe the TPGs are not cognizant of this simple, far from a revelation and universally used concept.

 

Useless you are just plain ornery.