Incomplete Certification of NGC coins

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

Chis,

Petulantly holding on to a bad argument, and making such boldy meaningless rebuttals, which I agree carry much currency in the NGC Coin Collectors Society, simply because it is what they have been told for years, will change; howbeit, with alot of people kicking and screaming.

BTW, an ex NGC grader, and current dealer told me, "Population data is unavailable" is insider's speak for "One of a kind"...He also cautioned me that all coin dealers are sharks who will tell an unsuspecting collector (which, most collectors fall into this class, because of the mathematical fallacies they have been fed for years) that their "error" coin isn't worth much, when in fact, there are collectors known to those dealers who would pay good money for that collector's coin. Without "Truth in Reporting" applied at the coin's Certification level, which has nothing directly to do with Census Reporting, the average coin collector is easy prey for the typical coin dealer.

Truly, certifications without full reporting keeps coin owners in the dark, much like mushrooms.

Best regards,

Marcus

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

Chris,

How well did you do in college statistics? Did you even take the course?

Marcus

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

Chris,

Clean you glasses...It's right there in front of you.

Marcus

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

To all Collectors Society members.

I am new to posting here, so am not quoting other members when I respond to them. Please take time to read through the entries, and you will find my responses.

Thank you for your patience,

Marcus

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

Chris,

What I see on the holder's description begs the question,"How many of these exist in the total population of 199? That is a very important question, that without an answer leaves the coins owner at a disadvantage. Are there 0? No, because the certification exists. Is there 1? If the answer to this is "yes", then the coin is at the top of the rarity scale. Are there 2 to 4?...ect...

Revisit the terms, "Relative Rarity" and "Absolute Rarity"...I'm sorry that you can't see the forest for the trees (And I'm sure that if you continue your campaign of denial, you'll say whatever you have to to turn my words on their head....Too Bad)

Marcus

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

Hmmmmmmm...G_R_AM_MMMM_A_R...Sorry, I stutttter too...does that have any bearing on the truth of my argument too?

And, telling a lie over and over for years has given it the power of Truth...What do you know what will or will not happen as I continue to repeat the Truth over and over until the Coin Collectors Society finally "gets it"...Heck, the world once believed the Earth was flat too....How did that work out?

Marcus

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

So, you can't define rarity in absolute terms. Perhaps it is because it is subjective just like the term "numismatic error" is subjective.

How many errors could be classified for just one date/mintmark? A cud from 1-3 o'clock along the rim of a 1909 Lincoln is one; a cud from 2-4 o'clock is another; a cud from 3-5 o'clock is another, and so on and so on. How about another 1909 Lincoln with a grease-filled die on one number of the date? _909? 1_09? 19_9? What about two numbers missing? What about three numbers or all four numbers missing? Do you get the picture? For every variety that is currently listed, there could be thousands of errors, and if you're going to list one error, it is not unreasonable to expect that all other errors are listed.

Maybe you should start your own grading service so you can do what you want. Good luck to that!

Chris

Whoa there, give a guy a chance to respond before assuming he doesn't have a response....Consider the following methods: "Sheldon rarity scale" and the "Universal rarity scale"...Thanks!!!

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

Legally entitled!? Legally entitled!? Ordinarily, I'd suggest that you take them to court, but since they are only violating your law, you'd probably lose. By the way, your English composition, spelling and punctuation are starting to deteriorate, as well.

Chris

Chris, unless you can back up your inflammatory words with a citation or two from the Law, I'd save your breath..."Probably lose"? I'm afraid you're a little behind, and can't keep up; so, I'll break it down for you.

I'm not planning to begin a civil action against NGC. When taking down a blighted tree, you tear it out by the roots, then burn it.

I'll let you guess what that means.

Marcus

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

the term "numismatic error" is subjective.

Maybe you should start your own grading service so you can do what you want. Good luck to that!

Chris

Chris, if "numismatic error" was subjective, then the NGC graders wouldn't include error language on NGC holders.

Again, apart from MS/PF 70 coins, all graded coins differ as to where the "marks" are located, ect.

Error coins are no different...The wording on the holders is what is entered into the NGC certified coin database. Coins with the same grade and other "Condition Attributes" can easily be segregated and tallied for full Population Data for every coins "Certification"...Do you even know what purpose the certification has in the coins place, not simply for Census accounting, but also for the coins relative ranking in the world of rare coins?

Marcus

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

I would almost bet that NGC has never kept all the data on error coins that have been graded. That's a lot to ask. Way too many types to keep track of.

Larry,

And I'll bet that every NGC graded coin records everything entered on the holder's label...In the Database world, that fact is sufficient to do an easy accounting for each coin in it's respective Census Population (P) to arrive at a Certification Population number M < or = P.

I went to school for this kind of stuff...I graduate near the top of my class in IT and Mathematics.

I also have 30+ years experience in various industries...Your statement shows that you have no idea about NGC's database. When you first access a census page, or price guide page, do you remember first seeing all that numerical gobbledygook as the first page loads? All that stuff has to do with NGC's database. Without that database, it would be impossible to report their statistics...What I propose assumes only one thing. Simply put, every graded coin has a record in the database with various information pertinent to that coins "attributes", one being the words on the holder's description of the coin. The task I am proposing isn't as momentous as you imagine. In fact, it's S-I-M-P-L-E.

I hope this helps,

Marcus

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

Chris,

BTW, thank you for your interest; however, I must ask, are you an employee of NGC?

Marcus

I decided to respond to this remark, first, so that all subsequent responses can be taken in their proper context.

No, I am not an employee of NGC, nor have I ever been. This comment smacks of being some form of paranoid, retaliatory remark merely because I have been a member of these forums for 10-1/2 years, and you have no other reasonable comment.

Chris

Chris,

It was just a question...I was just assuming that NGC chat boards are monitored by someone, so wondered if you were here both to monitor the chat and to facilitate the discussion by trying to clarify NGC policies and procedures.

Sorry, I was wrong...You're just another Society member operating with a host of false assumptions.

Marcus

brg5658 · July 2, 2015

MLCoins,

You do realize you are rambling (multiple consecutive replies to your own thread) and sound like a complete crazy person? Just wondering.

For the record I have a graduate degree in statistics and have been a professional statistician for more than a decade. I have authored more than 60 peer reviewed publications and understand the scientific process very well. What you are asking for has nothing to do with that. You want to see some magical number in a table from NGC to justify you being able to ask a higher price for a coin because of supposed rarity. NGC has no obligation to provide such numbers or bow to your whims. You are apparently incapable of understanding the well justified reasons for this. Please get a grip.

:screwy:

brg5658 · July 2, 2015

BTW, an ex NGC grader, and current dealer told me, "Population data is unavailable" is insider's speak for "One of a kind"...He also cautioned me that all coin dealers are sharks who will tell an unsuspecting collector (which, most collectors fall into this class, because of the mathematical fallacies they have been fed for years) that their "error" coin isn't worth much, when in fact, there are collectors known to those dealers who would pay good money for that collector's coin. Without "Truth in Reporting" applied at the coin's Certification level, which has nothing directly to do with Census Reporting, the average coin collector is easy prey for the typical coin dealer.

What brand of foil is your hat made of? Reynolds?

:makepoint:

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

I sure do feel sorry for the customer service rep who had to put up with him on the phone. (Note: We need an emoticon for "Why Me!")

Chris

Chris,

Actually, I feel sorry for every customer service rep who has to regurgitate self serving company policy statements.

There should be an emoticon which follows you to all chat boards saying "I can't think for myself, and believe everything NGC tells me"

I'm as frustrated with you as you are with me.

It's sad that we have arrived at this impasse.

Marcus

P.S. Stew, because this isn't going to go away.

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

MLCoins,

You do realize you are rambling (multiple consecutive replies to your own thread) and sound like a complete crazy person? Just wondering.

For the record I have a graduate degree in statistics and have been a professional statistician for more than a decade. I have authored more than 60 peer reviewed publications and understand the scientific process very well. What you are asking for has nothing to do with that. You want to see some magical number in a table from NGC to justify you being able to ask a higher price for a coin because of supposed rarity. NGC has no obligation to provide such numbers or bow to your whims. You are apparently incapable of understanding the well justified reasons for this. Please get a grip.

brg5658 ,

If you have those qualifications, then you sir, are knowingly propagating NGC's misinformation...As to me sounding like an obsessed nutbag, I explained to my peers in the society that I hadn't quite gotten the hang of the "Quote and Respond" process. I've fixed that, and promise to make it easier to follow my responses than simply having to click on the name of the person I'm responding to, which is located at the top of every response.

So, please inform me?

Can we start with the false assumption that the data needed for complete certification reporting doesn't exist in NGC's database?

And, are you aware that the population data which should be on the certification isn't necessarily the same as what is reported in the Census?

Define:

PC = {All coins graded by year, denomination, and grade} = Count entered in the Census,

and,

M= {All coins within PC which include descriptions that include other coin attributes other than simple MS or PF grades}

such that,

M = {All Coins with Coin Holder Description 1, where Coin Holder Description 1 not equal to a simple MS or PF grade} U {All coins with Coin Holder Description 2, where Description 2 not equal to a simple MS or PF grade} U...{All coins with Coin Holder Description N, where Coin Holder Description N no equal to a simple MS or PF grade}

and M Intersection PC not equal to {Null}

Then, The proper population data 'PD' entered into the Online NGC Certification for coin 'C' an element of {All coins with Coin Holder Description L s.t. Coin Holder Description L not equal to a simple MS or PF grade} = SUM {All coins with Coin Holder Description L s.t. Coin Holder Description L not equal to a simple MS or PF grade} , where 1 < or = L < or = M

So, please don't think you are simply going to snow me with your substantial education, or shame me for my fervor, nor my inexperience posting on a chatboard.

Marcus

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

What brand of foil is your hat made of? Reynolds?

Noooooo, just a 167 IQ...What are you made of (including your hat) Straw? And, is this your song, "Oh, if I only had a brain...."?

AHFreak · July 2, 2015

Wow MLCoins, I knew after reading the first page that you are waaayyyyyyy to smart for the majority of people here, we can't even begin to communicate on your level and you shouldn't have to sink to our levels. ..

You definately don't have to put up with all this dumbness... perhaps you should wander over to a forum for physicists or mathematicians or something. At least then you wouldn't be having such a one sided convo.

Around here, we just buy whatever someone can get us to spend money on...

hey... let me ask you this, do you have some super duper ultra rare errors that you could show me? I been looking for some info on something like a 1957 25C proof with reverse strike-through in a PF67CAM holder ever since I sold the last one I made... I really feel like I got the shaft on that last one I sold for $125... I couldn't get more than it was actually worth and after reading what i could of all your make-sense here I realize it's definately because there were no data/charts/census/skittles that explained how. .. ultra oober-rare those actually are... shoot man, could u slap together some sort of scribble to demonstrate that for me so when I find the next one I can really let myself go? U know, I'm pretty sure uncle Wayne says.... YOLO!!! Hollabakjack

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015

Wow MLCoins, I knew after reading the first page that you are waaayyyyyyy to smart for the majority of people here, we can't even begin to communicate on your level and you shouldn't have to sink to our levels. ..
You definately don't have to put up with all this dumbness... perhaps you should wander over to a forum for physicists or mathematicians or something. At least then you wouldn't be having such a one sided convo.

Around here, we just buy whatever someone can get us to spend money on...

hey... let me ask you this, do you have some super duper ultra rare errors that you could show me? I been looking for some info on something like a 1957 25C proof with reverse strike-through in a PF67CAM holder ever since I sold the last one I made... I really feel like I got the shaft on that last one I sold for $125... I couldn't get more than it was actually worth and after reading what i could of all your make-sense here I realize it's definately because there were no data/charts/census/skittles that explained how. .. ultra oober-rare those actually are... shoot man, could u slap together some sort of scribble to demonstrate that for me so when I find the next one I can really let myself go? U know, I'm pretty sure uncle Wayne says.... YOLO!!! Hollabakjack

AHFreak,

Ya gotta be kidd'n me. First, get an education...Not the book kind, but the "how to sound like an imbecile so I can sucker punch someone" kinda street smarts.

I included the serial number for the coin you referenced. Either you don't know proper English, or you're TRYING to insinuate that I manufactured the coin. And, well, kinda sounds like you're also dissing my accounting method where I use set theory, and also actlie segest'n I dan't belang hear...hmmmmm, sounds like reverse discrimination...yeah, I know, you dun't undertend sich thins.

Hey, anybody in the Collectors Society know this guy?

Marcus

ldhair · July 2, 2015

I would almost bet that NGC has never kept all the data on error coins that have been graded. That's a lot to ask. Way too many types to keep track of.

Larry,

And I'll bet that every NGC graded coin records everything entered on the holder's label...In the Database world, that fact is sufficient to do an easy accounting for each coin in it's respective Census Population (P) to arrive at a Certification Population number M < or = P.

I went to school for this kind of stuff...I graduate near the top of my class in IT and Mathematics.

I also have 30+ years experience in various industries...Your statement shows that you have no idea about NGC's database. When you first access a census page, or price guide page, do you remember first seeing all that numerical gobbledygook as the first page loads? All that stuff has to do with NGC's database. Without that database, it would be impossible to report their statistics...What I propose assumes only one thing. Simply put, every graded coin has a record in the database with various information pertinent to that coins "attributes", one being the words on the holder's description of the coin. The task I am proposing isn't as momentous as you imagine. In fact, it's S-I-M-P-L-E.

I hope this helps,

Marcus

A few questions for you Marcus.

How long have you been in this hobby? I'm asking that because things change over the years. I'm thinking those changes are going to mess with the results of sorting all the data.

This is a list of a few changes I can think of. I'm sure others can add to the list.

There have been changes as far as what NGC would show on the label.

Early slabs had only basic information. At some point you could pay a fee for them to research the coin and add more information to the label.

Experts have changed opinions as to what something is or what it should be called. The term may be different.

There is only so much room on the label. NGC has been creative in finding ways to get what they can to fit. The way they show the information has changed over the years along with the different types of slabs.

We now have acronyms for everything. Those may or may not have been used.

In my opinion all of these things are going to change the results when trying to sort millions of different coins.

physics-fan3.14 · July 2, 2015

Haha, this thread got funny. :popcorn:

ldhair · July 2, 2015

Haha, this thread got funny.

You can't off that easy Jason. Data is your world. Jump into the fun. :grin:

World Colonial · July 2, 2015

Can we start with the false assumption that the data needed for complete certification reporting doesn't exist in NGC's database?
Marcus

No, it doesn't but I could not find anything on NGC's website where they claimed that it did or was intended to include every single coin they have ever graded. .

Why doesn't it exist? Here are a couple of reasons which come to mind:

First, NGC sees no business benefit to doing so. The cost of this effort probably exceeds any future submissions they would gain and this is assuming it can be measured at all which I don't believe.

Second, you are one of the few who care. In the almost nine years I have been a member here, I have never read even one comment prior to your where anyone mentioned it.

I don't know whether any noticeable number of error collectors care or not. I presume they would prefer it but its not really important to them either.

Lastly, though I am not an error collector, I don't see anything significant at all about the scarcity of most errors, even if they happen to be unique. As Chris explained, there are potentially dozens, hundreds or even thousands for a single denomination/date/MM combination. This is no different than die varieties and most of them are unknown to the majority of the collector base who wouldn't care about them anyway if they knew of their existence.

brg5658 · July 2, 2015

So, please don't think you are simply going to snow me with your substantial education, or shame me for my fervor, nor my inexperience posting on a chatboard.

You were the first in this thread to throw around educational qualifications and your "double" degree. I was informing you that we on this forum are not a bunch of bumbling redneck mouth breathers. You drew your sword first, now you don't like the consequences.

You can transcribe all the set theory Mumbo-Jumbo you'd like Marcus, or proclaim your IQ to the world, that doesn't prove that you know diddly about NGC. Error collecting is a highly niche collecting area. Truly fantastic error coins sell for great money without the gimmick of being able to declare "pop 1". The kind of data you are asking for are simply too disperse to mean anything to a true collector. As I already explained in my first post, the misuse of population data by hucksters is reason enough for NGC to limit their reporting to non error coins. If you can't understand that then I am sorry for you. In general, dramatic error coins sell for more...and a struck through modern proof coin doesn't qualify for that "dramatic" definition IMO.

Good luck in your continued rampage of silliness, but I have said all I am going to say in a thread of this sort. Some people are simply beyond any rational argument.

MLCoins-migration · July 2, 2015