Is there a remedy for persistently overgraded coin types or conditions?

[RWB]

I realize the post about which series seem to be overgraded is still current, but I was wondering what collectors though about possible remedies? Is there a way out of the mess? Should anyone or any company even try?

 

[A personal comment - most of the "MS63" gold I have seen is AU at best. Many of the double eagles might not have circulated in commerce, but they circulated between banks and counting clerks, and have obvious wear -- yet, they still are put in holders claiming the coins are uncirculated. Wear is wear. Rub is rub. Dub is dub. Uncirculated is uncirculated.

 

[i realize there are some, including all/most of the professional graders, seem to disagree, yet the abrasion is obvious on most of these pieces.

 

[There seems to be so much money-presure in coins that only a continued degradation will sustain markets.]

[coinman_23885]

I don't see a remedy for greed and TPG inconsistency.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Statistical and computer artificial intelligence analysis may be capable of resolving the issue of accurate grading at some point in the future. I suppose you could do a quarter by quarter statistical analysis of increases in certain coin populations at certain grade levels. If there were a big shift upward you would probably be able to make a definite correlation. Ultimately solutions are legal, financial, and consumer demand.

[Neko]

This is exactly why I buy the coin and not the plastic. I believe the TPGs are no more than 75% accurate in the AU 58 to MS 63 range. Especially so when it comes to gold.

[MJ]

Don't buy 63's unless they are 63's. Problem solved

 

Mark

[coinman_23885]

Don't buy 63's unless they are 63's. Problem solved

 

Mark

 

But that means you are buying/emphasizing plastic too. It shouldn't matter if the coin is a MS62 and the label says MS64 as long as you pay a fair price. Relying on plastic is part of the problem IMO.

[halfpint]

 

...No one mentioned the green bean yet. Oh wait I guess it was mentioned.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I realize the post about which series seem to be overgraded is still current, but I was wondering what collectors though about possible remedies? Is there a way out of the mess? Should anyone or any company even try?

 

[A personal comment - most of the "MS63" gold I have seen is AU at best. Many of the double eagles might not have circulated in commerce, but they circulated between banks and counting clerks, and have obvious wear -- yet, they still are put in holders claiming the coins are uncirculated. Wear is wear. Rub is rub. Dub is dub. Uncirculated is uncirculated.

 

[i realize there are some, including all/most of the professional graders, seem to disagree, yet the abrasion is obvious on most of these pieces.

 

[There seems to be so much money-presure in coins that only a continued degradation will sustain markets.]

 

Read the book, read the book, read the book, and study a million coins, and then buy the coin because as a numismatist you like it and you are not buying it for the sole purpose to flip it for a quick profit, because inevitably such a pursuit will cloud the reason for being a collector, because the decisions made about buying a coin will be how much can be made on a coin and not the enjoyment of the hobby.

[Afterword]

If grading coins is subjective, there is no such thing as an accurate grade. It is always nothing more than an opinion.

 

You have a chance to give your opinion, when you decide whether or not to buy a coin.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

...No one mentioned the green bean yet. Oh wait I guess it was mentioned.

 

Stickers are also plastic.

[Afterword]

"Many of the double eagles might not have circulated in commerce, but they circulated between banks and counting clerks, and have obvious wear -- yet, they still are put in holders claiming the coins are uncirculated."

 

 

 

 

 

Is there a definitive definition of circulated, as it relates to grading coins?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

"Many of the double eagles might not have circulated in commerce, but they circulated between banks and counting clerks, and have obvious wear -- yet, they still are put in holders claiming the coins are uncirculated."

 

Is there a definitive definition of circulated, as it relates to grading coins?

 

An operational definition would be any coin that exhibits signs of wear. Of course, the TPGs ignore this when it is convenient and use sugar coated gems such as "album friction" or "cabinet friction". Rub is rub.

[Afterword]

"Many of the double eagles might not have circulated in commerce, but they circulated between banks and counting clerks, and have obvious wear -- yet, they still are put in holders claiming the coins are uncirculated."

 

Is there a definitive definition of circulated, as it relates to grading coins?

 

An operational definition would be any coin that exhibits signs of wear. Of course, the TPGs ignore this when it is convenient and use sugar coated gems such as "album friction" or "cabinet friction". Rub is rub.

 

 

 

 

I am unclear as to what you mean by "operational definition". Is it the agreed upon definition of 'circulated' by numismatists? (I might be wrong, but does not the use of the terms "album friction" and "cabinet friction" predate the TPGs?)

 

I am wondering if what constitutes a circulated coin is as subjective as everything else in the coin grading process. To me a 'nick' or 'hairline scratch' would be as indicative of 'circulation' as 'rub' would be, yet that does not appear to be the case. This makes me wonder where the line is drawn that separates 'circulated' from 'uncirculated'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RWB]

There is an accepted definition of "uncirculated." Anything else, must be "circulated" by default.

[Afterword]

"There is an accepted definition of "uncirculated." "

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What would that definition be? Accepted by who?

[Nutmeg Coin]

"Circulated coins are coins that show wear due to the fact that they have been used in commerce and circulated amongst the population."

 

http://coins.about.com/od/coinsglossaryc/g/Circulated-A-Definition-Of-Circulated-Coin.htm

 

So if a coin did not so circulate would it necessarily be uncirculated? Mishandling, or as Mr. Travers once said, a perspiration soaked finger could render a coin circulated, which seemed strange to me.

[RWB]

 

NGC: Uncirculated - describes an unworn coin and means the same as Mint State.

 

PCGS: Term to indicate a coin or numismatic item that has never been in circulation, a coin without wear. See “Brilliant Uncirculated,” “Mint State,” and “new.”

 

Other sources - ANA, B&D, on and on - are similar. All center on the absence of wear.

[skippy]

The problem would not continue to exist if we as consumers did not actively support and perpetuate it.

 

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Then you are going to have to settle for copper and other spotted gold coins ("undipped", unconserved), real uncs. that will be trading at significant premiums, or coins without the eye appeal of the others with a little friction. Collectors want it both ways, the best at inexpensive prices, they don't want to pay more. And dealers want to buy raw coins at critical analysis prices, so though certified they want to buy them at AU prices and then will sell them without mentioning the negative. And if the dealers get coins bought at AU to grade at MS it will be to their advantage. The same goes for rare coins with defects like light scratches, they will try to buy at melt prices. If the sellers were educated about real market value of what they had, maybe it would be to the advantage of numismatics.

[Afterword]

NGC: Uncirculated - describes an unworn coin and means the same as Mint State.

 

PCGS: Term to indicate a coin or numismatic item that has never been in circulation, a coin without wear. See “Brilliant Uncirculated,” “Mint State,” and “new.”

 

Other sources - ANA, B&D, on and on - are similar. All center on the absence of wear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some seem to imply the requirement of never having been in circulation. Others do not. Certainly not definitive.

 

Determining the earliest stages of 'wear', with the requirement of 'never been in circulation', would be a subjective endeavor at best, in my opinion.

 

[Afterword]

"Collectors want it both ways, the best at inexpensive prices, they don't want to pay more."

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe this is why this subject has limited appeal to me, because I do not mind paying expensive prices for coins, as long as I can reasonably expect to recoup those expenses when the time comes to sell.

[BillJones]

There is really not much of a cure for this. The leading grafting services have set standards, it is very hard to change them. I'll post photos and try to start a discussion when I can in about a week.