Is there a US coin type/grade that you feel is frequently overgraded?

[RWB]

For me, it's the high-end rarities, and most double eagles below MS64.

 

What to others think?

[Danye West]

Franklin Halves, Mercury and Roosevelt Dimes.

[jpcienkus]

Morgan Dollars in GSA Holders

[orifdoc]

Well, that's an interesting question.....

 

Certainly there are differences. My best thoughts are that it's simply necessary to learn the nuances of grading applied to each series. To me Morgans are overgraded when compared to Peace dollars. An MS66 Peace dollar needs to be virtually prefect, while a Morgan doesn't look the same until it's an MS67. In almost all MS grades there seems to be about a 1 grade separation between the two in terms of acceptable bagmarks and luster.

 

Of top end rarities I know very little, except that the ranking of the extant pieces is more meaningful to me that the exact number on the holder.

 

Coins I have submitted to the TGPs are virtually always undergraded, by about a point.

[coinman_23885]

Key date coins (1877 IHC and 1916 D Dime in particular), Double Eagles (and I think the cutoff is much higher than MS64), CC Morgan Dollars in mint state, Capped Bust Half Dollars in MS60-MS63 holders that are really AU58, Jefferson Nickels (and so called "planchet roughness"), Generic gold generally, heavily hairlines proof 19th century coinage from PF60-PF64, and a few others all come to mind.

 

And you are correct of course about ultra rarities and certain hoard coins.

[wdrob]

 

Key date coins (1877 IHC and 1916 D Dime in particular)

 

While I have no first hand experience with the two mentioned, I have had opposite results with other "key dates" and I feel that they are held to a stricter grading standard or they just choose to err on the side of caution as it relates to financial liability.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Which keys did you have in mind Bill? What grade levels?

[wdrob]

 

They might actually be Semi-Key dates instead of Key Dates but two examples of recent results are:

 

 

• 1921-P High Relief Peace Dollar
  
• 1896-O Morgan Dollar
  

 

I view that Peace Dollar and that Morgan in hand quite often (usually after seeing another higher graded trashy example) and just shake my head.

 

The population data seems to support that theory as well. The first is for the 1921 Peace Dollar and it bottlenecks right around MS63 and MS64 - The second is for the 1896-O and it is overwhelmingly represented at AU58.

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Strike is the culprit on the 1921 Peace Dollar. The 1896-O has a lower mintage, and it might very well be the case that most of them circulated. The pieces I have seen didn't seem to be held to higher standards IMO.

[wdrob]

 

Strike is key on both issues. As for the 1921 Peace Dollar I will quote David Lange:

 

"The high relief of the dies resulted in rapid die failure, so the set distance between the dies was increased to reduce stress. This left most of the coins with incomplete strikes, those having strong centers usually revealing flat lettering at the borders, while ones displaying full rims and legends suffered weak hair detail around Liberty's ear."

 

It would seem as though they place a higher emphasis on greater detailed strike around the border and flat as a pancake hair than the alternative weaker strike on the peripheral and very nice detailed hair. Seems as though it would be the opposite since the center point or Primary Focal Point for the obverse is Lady Liberty and her hair.

 

The 1896-O is another with strike deficiencies. I will quote Wayne Miller: "No other Morgan dollar is as consistently deficient in luster, strike, and degree of surface abrasions as the 1896-O." I have also seen many MS63 and MS64 1896-O's that were beat all to hell and weakly struck. So when they have another go at the below 1896-O Morgan or the 1921-P Peace Dollar I really can't understand it. That is why I feel they must be tougher on Semi-Key or Key dates.

 

Either that or they have my number dialed in.

 

 

NGC AU58

 

 

NGC MS63

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Afterword]

"To me Morgans are overgraded when compared to Peace dollars."

 

 

 

 

 

I agree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[michael]

three dollar gold pieces in xf 40 to au 58

 

most are overgraded by 4-8 points

 

ms 61 62 incuse indian gold is only au same with ms 65 most are 63+ to 64

 

what someone said about capped bust halves in ms 61 to even 64 holders are only choice au with heavy rub

 

many proof coins of the pre 1915 brilliant proof era

of a certain holder are consistently overgraded by 1/2+ to 1+ point

 

in proof 65 66 67 68 holders

 

many deep mirror prooflike morgans in both companies holders are only prooflike moreso in older holders

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

GSAs graded by NGC from what I have seen at least in recent history. There are plenty of undergraded coins from time to time that CAC likely wouldn't gold sticker because it would be too controversial. There are plenty of "properly graded" ugly coins. PCGS coins graded for David Hall.

[RWB]

The two graphs are nice examples of what has been done, but I don't see how that illustrates over grading of the two examples.

[coinman_23885]

Strike is key on both issues. As for the 1921 Peace Dollar I will quote David Lange:

 

"The high relief of the dies resulted in rapid die failure, so the set distance between the dies was increased to reduce stress. This left most of the coins with incomplete strikes, those having strong centers usually revealing flat lettering at the borders, while ones displaying full rims and legends suffered weak hair detail around Liberty's ear."

 

It would seem as though they place a higher emphasis on greater detailed strike around the border and flat as a pancake hair than the alternative weaker strike on the peripheral and very nice detailed hair. Seems as though it would be the opposite since the center point or Primary Focal Point for the obverse is Lady Liberty and her hair.

 

The 1896-O is another with strike deficiencies. I will quote Wayne Miller: "No other Morgan dollar is as consistently deficient in luster, strike, and degree of surface abrasions as the 1896-O." I have also seen many MS63 and MS64 1896-O's that were beat all to hell and weakly struck. So when they have another go at the below 1896-O Morgan or the 1921-P Peace Dollar I really can't understand it. That is why I feel they must be tougher on Semi-Key or Key dates.

 

Either that or they have my number dialed in.

 

 

NGC AU58

 

 

NGC MS63

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, but strike shouldn't cause a spike in the AU grade range for the 1896-O. Strike can certainly cause a spike in the MS64 range. That is where I was going with those comments.

[wdrob]

 

It doesn't Roger and I apologize for convoluting the thread focus.

 

Those two examples are probably over graded as well.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Both examples look right to me for the holder grade.

[Kurtdog]

For me, it's the high-end rarities, and most double eagles below MS64.

 

What to others think?

The coins I want to buy. Just my luck, they're always overgraded.

 

[CaptHenway]

The 1937-D 3-legged nickel is consistently overgraded by all grading services.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

18th and 19th century cents and half cents, and all colonial issues.

Just an opinion.

[BillJones]

The two major grading services lowered the standards for grading for 1877 cents and 1916-D Mercury Dimes. Before that you needed a full "LIBERTY" on Fine and VF cents and full vertical ax lines on Mercury a Dimes. Now you don't.

 

Another change is Standing Liberty Quarters. For a Mint State coin, rub on the knee can be acceptable. I've even seen a few pieces with a rub up the thigh.

[wdrob]

 

PCGS coins graded for David Hall.

 

 

God knows that is the truth.

 

The other thread by Roger asks is there any way to remedy this. The answer is no when one with such influential leadership in the field can compromise integrity for a buck.

 

A PCGS (David Hall) MS65 with "above average in central strike, with excellent luster and surfaces." $2,450

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[michael]

PCGS coins graded for David Hall.

 

 

God knows that is the truth.

 

The other thread by Roger asks is there any way to remedy this. The answer is no when one with such influential leadership in the field can compromise integrity for a buck.

 

A PCGS (David Hall) MS65 with "above average in central strike, with excellent luster and surfaces." $2,450

 

 

 

 

 

 

wow looks like a nice! ms 64 but 64 nontheless

[AHFreak]

Am I going to banned ATS for reading this???

[RWB]

"..."above average in central strike,..."

 

Really? Maybe "central" means Liberty's nose....?

 

Take a look at the illustrations of central detail in the Guide Book for Peace Dollars.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I have seen some 1921 HR Peace dollars that are really low on the eye appeal chart, it is rare that you see one with full strike with minimal problems.

 

How to sell the coins with irrelevant historical and other details to fill the ad? A low mintage unique coin with numerous fans across the numismatic spectrum. In 1921 the nation was reeling from an inflationary depression. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_of_1920%E2%80%9321 Warren G. Harding was President and economic factors contributed to this. " The U.S. was on the Gold standard the flight of gold from hyper-inflationary Europe to the U.S. raised the nominal stock of high-powered base money." The HR Peace dollar was impressive to many citizens who kept them as keepsakes, as it represented substantially more buying power than the current era. Snag a keepsake from what would be known as the roaring twenties with only the lightest of bagmarks, full luster as if straight from the US mint.

[RWB]

Gag.....

[brg5658]

One of the reasons I don't collect any gold is because -- even up through MS65 -- it often looks like it won 2nd place in a knife fight. I am amazed at the number of abrasions allowed on gold coins in the MS64/65 grade range -- and by the time you get to gold in grades of MS66/67, I can't afford it anymore. So I just don't collect it.

 

 

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Type II gold dollars with the huge spike from AU58 to mintstate. And some regard Walkers as unworthy of gem grade even if surfaces qualify if the strike is not full enough.

[michael]

Am I going to banned ATS for reading this???

 

only if you can stand on your own 2 feet