Rudman collection of Mexican colonial coinage

[World Colonial]

I just read an add on CoinWeek that Heritage will be auctioning off this collection in multiple parts. This is the top Mexican collection in the world to my knowledge (at least private one) though maybe there is another one of which I have no knowledge. I have mentioned it in my prior posts.

 

I presume it will occur in two installments. The CoinWeek article covers the gold coinage which will be sold in August at the ANA convention. These coins are currently listed but without images. I presume the silver will be sold in 2016 though no timeframe is noted.

 

I collect the pillar minors and have reviwed his registry sets in the past. So, now its time to save up my money and make a short list of the coins I will attempt to compte for.

 

My first choice is to buy a higher grade pillar 4R. I don't own one from this mint and though I have seen a few XF or lower AU in the past, never prioritized it.

 

I also want to buy a better AU 1R. I own a single AU-58 but it's not a natural looking coin as it is all "white".

 

I am also interested in the 1732 issues but all of them will be very expensive. A few are in "details" holders but I am dubious that they will sell at a price I will be willing to pay.

 

I don't see them in his registry set but apparently he owns several "royals". Stacks last sold an NGC VF-35 1/2R for about $1500. I consider this price a bargain for a coin like it.

[RWB]

Why does "registry" matter? I thought you collected coins not green stamps....

[World Colonial]

It doesn't matter. I looked to see what was in it in the past.

 

This isn't a typical US registry set. It is composed of a disproportionate number of "details" and circulated coins. I presume given the estimated value of just his Mexican collection ($10 million according to CoinWeek) that he couldn't find any better or "better" specimens and most likely, because in many instances they do not exist.

 

As one example, the 1732 pillar 1/2R is "XF details holed and scratched". The hole has almost pierced the metal at the top of the coin given its small size. For wear, I would grade it near uncirculated though it has also been cleaned in the past going by the color.

 

The Pogue and Gardner collections are better but Mexican colonial coins do not exist in comparable grades.

[RWB]

I think of Mexican colonials in much the same way as US colonials - A coin in Fine might be the best known.

 

Good luck on the bidding.

[Mr. Smith Guesser]

I think this is the article link to the story: http://www.coinweek.com/auctions-news/rudman-collection-mexican-coins-part-sold-heritage-auctions/

 

There's also another recent article on Coinweek that I saw about Rudman's collection of slave hire badges and anti-slavery medals: http://www.coinweek.com/auctions-news/isaac-rudman-collection-slave-hire-badges-anti-slavery-medals-may-18-auction/

 

Apparently, Mr. Rudman has quite a large collection that extends well beyond Mexican coinage. I've never heard of him until this post.

[KMAG100]

Wow this should be a great opportunity....

[World Colonial]

I think of Mexican colonials in much the same way as US colonials - A coin in Fine might be the best known.

 

Good luck on the bidding.

 

Thanks

[World Colonial]

I believe the Mexican coins are actually a minority of his collection. they certainly are measured by points in the NGC registry, as I believe he is around #5 overall. Most of it is US.

 

I only became aware of this collection because I collect pillars and noticed several years ago he had the 1732 4R (both the specimen and regular issue) in NGC AU-58 in his registry set.

 

Many collectors are familiar with the pillar dollar and may know the 1732 is the first year. 4R are much scarcer than 8's and the 1732 4R is also much scarcer than the 1732 8R. I am not sure if Rudman's coin is the Gilboy plate coin. The image of his coin looks essentially identical except for a "dark spot" on the pillar side on the rim. This is the only defect I see in this coin which seems to keep it from an MS grade. In any event, its probably still a six figure coin and out of my league anyway.

 

Because of the US TPG focus on grade, its probably worth less than his 1732 8R and the PCGS MS-65 but I don't think it should be.

[World Colonial]

I thought I would follow-up on the first installment of this sale, results included in the link below.

 

http://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Ne=35&N=51+790+231+670+4294948358&ic4=Refine-071515

 

In my opinion, the results were somewhat weak though I don't see the pre-auction estimates and didn't keep a record of them.

 

Maybe it's also a function of the overall coin market generally but to a significant extent, I believe it's the quality versus what exists for comporable US coinage. These were the "best' or among the best for the issues and series but none of them exist in the uber grades which are so prevelant for the greatest US rarities.

 

As an example, the 1732's have less than 10 known or in that vicinity across the four denominations. The 8E escudos which I presume is the most preferred because of the price and it's size (mine is the 4E) sold for about $72k which was barely more than the $68k Rudman paid for it back in 1985 according to the listing. That's a huge loss when adjusted for purchasing

power.

 

A second reason might be that the design might not be not that popular. I find it drastically inferior to the contemporary pillars which I do collect. If the pillar design had been used instead, I would attempt a type set.

 

Lastly, yesterday I found a link to Rudman's "royal" gold coinage in the NGC Registry. No picturers are included but I saw them before in the population report. I consider these along with the Carlos & Johanna 8R and the 1772 pillar 8R as the "ultra elite" of the entire Mexican series.

 

I expect these to sell for strong prices given their prominence and the grades, but much less than comporable US coinage. Probably in the $100k $300k range. The prize of these coins in my opinion is the 4E.

 

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=17366

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Did you pick anything up?

[World Colonial]

I don't collect any of the gold coinage.

 

If the prices are weak for the pillars as I think they were for this sale, I should have a shot at the coins I want. Specifically, I would like to buy a 1R, 4R and 8R with my highest priority the 4R. There are specific coins I have identified form his registry set and if I win any of them, I will follow-up with a post here.

[Abuelo's Collection]

Well, good luck. I think the gold sale was fantastic but the prices as mentioned, not great (not so bad either) except for few items. If you see the silver offerings, I think they are trying to recover what they did not with the first sale. The estimates are really elevated, and I think, likely not realistic on the coins I have seen. But for sure if you win something let us know, good luck.

[jgenn]

I won a few Charles III 8Rs in part II. The bidding was surprisingly fierce for some of the overdate varieties that I was hoping to acquire -- most of them were details grade, too.

[World Colonial]

I missed your post earlier. Mind sharing which coins you won?

 

For the 8's, the coin I wanted most was the 1766 AU-58 which sold for $1880 or thereabouts. I consider it a strong price but it looked like an exceptional coins and well worth it versus the numerous inferior MS coins which are often seen.

 

The second coin I liked was the 1771 8R which sold for around $1100. It previously sold on Heritage for slightly less.

 

Instead, I decided to use that money to pay down my mortgage.

 

By the way, I like your avatar coin. I am eventually looking to buy one of those Spanish 8R but just never paid up for it. Goldberg had a 1728 or 1729 NGC MS-64 which sold for around $2500 5+ years ago which is the one I should have tried to buy.

[jgenn]

The Rudman sale was a rare chance to improve my completion percentage for my Charles III pillar set. My new additions were a 1761/51 Mo MM XF40 (that I posted about in some detail), 1762/1 Mo MM AU and 1770/69 Mo MF XF. I also got a nice upgrade with the 1763/2 Mo MM XF40. Sadly, I could not match Rudmans completion ratio -- as I mentioned, the other scarce overdates that I needed hammered at very high levels. You can view these in my set.

[World Colonial]

I Believe you just need to be patient.

 

Sometimes, a "name" auction like this one can represent a "breakout" in the price level. The last sale I have direct knowledge of which was roughly comparable from a standpoint of completion (but with fewer high quality specimens) was the Patterson collection sold by Bonhams in 1996. I have a copy of the catalog and according to the seller, it included about 6000 pillars from all mints (except Popayan, CO) and denominations. Most were sold in groups lots are were very low quality but it included many rare and what I would describe as a once in a lifetime opportunity to buy these coins. I suspect Mr. Rudman bought many of his from this sale, including the 1732 4R NGC AU-58 with the assayer's mark.

 

The other substantial collections I am aware of include Schellshopp, Gerber, Norweb and Huntington, though I don't know exactly what was in them. I intend to buy the catalogs eventually if I can find them but I am actually a lot more interested in minors from Bolivia, Guatemala and Peru than the 8's.

 

I suspect that these results represent a combination of a new price level for some of the coins but that others were the result of "bidding fever". I also noticed the strong results on quite a few "details" coins. Since I suspect that it's Americans who paid the high prices, I equally believe there aren't very many buyers for this type of coin at this price level.

 

As with Newman, I consider it likely that many of them will be placed for sale over the next few years and with the combination of what I expect to be a much weaker economy and less competition for a single lot or a few lots, most of them will sell for less.

 

Nice write-up on your acquisitions.

[jgenn]

I suspect Mr. Rudman bought many of his from this sale

 

Perhaps that explains why certain details examples went for such high prices (while others did not).

[World Colonial]

I just checked the coins you listed in the Patterson catalog and I cannot tell from the description. It uses the Calberto reference and I have Gilboy.

[jgenn]

Calbeto does not list many overdates in this series -- one of the few is the 1763/2 MM; Calbeto 785

[World Colonial]

The Patterson catalog does not list a Calberto 785.