Langbords win!

[seventee]

Thinking outside the box does have its perils.It's really too bad there isn't an open forum on here or ATS.

 

No more movie scripting from me here.I was just trying to have some fun while trying to establish what I think are important points to consider about the story, the players and the history of the 1933 Double Eagle.

 

DaveG,even though 1932 was a rough year,as you say,there were people who had means through the "disparity of wealth" caused Great Depression.These are people who by no means lost everything they had after the stock market crash of 1929.Bully for them,I say. Does anyone know how the word "great" got hooked up with "depression?" I've wondered about this.

 

Please pardon me here,folks.I'm about to make first attempt to post an image in these threads.I've got image posting down pretty good ATS,I don't even know how to edit my posts here.It's easy to edit posts ATS.The ability to edit posts is a valuable tool for the poster to correct sentence construction errors,errors of "speak" arising from too hasty/incomplete research,spelling errors,image posting flops, etc.Is it even possible to edit posts here?

 

Here's a poignant image that can be found on p.41 of Illegal Tender:

March 10,1933.Unhappy but law-abiding citizens heeding Roosevelt's orders and returning their gold coins to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York

 

Tripp writes eloquently about how the gold recall went in Chapter 3 of his book.

On reading this chapter,p.35-49,it struck me (no pun intended) that the Mint tradition of exchanging old gold coin for new for coin collectors very likely went by the wayside starting March 6,1933.

 

Edit:Thanks MarkFeld.Right there in front of me the edit button is.My difficulties sometimes arise from not seeing the single tree in the forest of many.

 

I published the caption used byTripp in his book for the image seen above.Now I'm hearing that the caption is wrong.Notwithstanding,it occurs to me that the Denver banker in my movie would have some tough choices to make about which Doubles in his collection to turn in to the Government starting March-April,1933. My understanding is that the banker would get to keep ten pieces only ($200 face value) for his collection if he was of the mind to obey the law.The banker's collection has all the regular issues 1907-1932.Doing a quick count in my Redbook that's about 50 coins he has in his collection.To join the ranks of law-abiding citizens turning in their gold coins for greenbacks he should give up 40 pieces out of his collection totalling 50 in number?

 

Definitely keep the '27-D,Mr. banker....trust me,hindsight is crystal clear....you have nine more keeper choices to make....nonetheless,do the right thing... put forty of your Doubles in a little white bag like those fellows have done in the picture seen above and then turn them in...

 

Disclaimer:All characters appearing in my movie are fictitious.Any resemblance

to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

 

No more movie stuff from here on,I promise.I just can't get into CAFRA that much if you know what I mean.

 

I love your smilies,guys.

 

 

 

[RWB]

Interesting how a little misinformation can create much confusion, Mr1874. (PS:, the photo caption is also wrong.)

[MarkFeld]

Is it even possible to edit posts here?...

 

 

Yes, after you have posted, If you go to the bottom right of your post window, you should see a number of options, including "Edit". If you click on it, it brings up your post and you can edit it.

[RWB]

Coin collections were exempt. There was no working definition of a "coin collection."

[Conder101]

Right, anyone could keep up to $100 worth of gold, and collectors could keep an unlimited amount of "rare or unusual" gold coins which was defined as struck before some time in 1933 and earlier (I forget the exact cut off date in 1933 but I know it was AFTER the date when they began striking the 1933 double eagles.) The only restriction they had was they couldn't have more than four of the same date and mint quarter eagle.

 

The original draft of the order did not have that exclusion for collectors in it and everything had to be turned in. The collector clause was probably thanks to William Woodin, Secretary of the Treasury, good friend of FDR, and an advanced collector of gold coins.

[RWB]

It is also wroth noting that Treasury agents considered any member of the ANA an expert. Several reports describe agents having local ANA members look at a group of gold coins to advise if they were of unusual value.

 

Also, does anyone know why the 4-QE rule? I've never found a reason in gov. documents.

 

One last remark. The Mint Bureau was NOT included in any of the early gold orders.

[CaptHenway]

Just a WAG, but perhaps the four quarter eagle rule was to simplify math since they totaled $10 face.

[seventee]

Thanks for the info on exclusions for collectors,RWB and Condor.

 

Does anyone know the Gov's reasoning for even having the gold recall in the first place?

 

Was the recall to fix something to get the economy back on track? Were there too many gold notes out there and Gov didn't have enough gold to back up the notes?

 

 

[seventee]

I recall RWB pointing out earlier in this thread that the EO's were looking to thwart hoarding of bullion gold.

 

If one was a collector of $2-1/2 pieces in 1933,Gov came up with the arbitrary four number as the most number of a single date the collector could keep.More than four of a single date would be considered hoarding?

 

Did anyone go to jail in the '30's for hoarding gold coins?

[seventee]

Just a WAG, but perhaps the four quarter eagle rule was to simplify math since they totaled $10 face.

 

This makes sense.

[RWB]

Hoarding of money in all forms had been a major problem of the Hoover administration. He tried several times to control it, and failed every time. Hoarding removed money from circulation and thus prevented it from being used for goods, services, wages, taxes etc.

 

Since the Treasury controlled most gold in early 1933 (and had for decades), the real meaning was to frighten speculators and eventually (April) detach the dollar from an obsolete value of gold. (Without US price support, gold immediately jumped to $29.00/oz on open markets.) Disconnecting the dollar and gold (letting the dollar 'float') prevented foreign speculators and bankers from manipulating demand and hurting first one economy, then another. It also stopped much of the economic contagion by pulling the USA out of otherwise linked economies.

 

(As an aside: the stuff collectors seem to read on-line is largely biased BS. Do your research with open, but skeptical, eyes.)

 

It was also an opportunistic move to reset the value of gold to something closer to the world market after WW-I. During the war most prices doubled and miners could not extract gold and sell it for a profit at $20.67. They asked for subsidies, a gold tax, a gold surcharge rebated to the miners, and other relief. Some businesses couldn't pay their bills during and after the war due to the disparity between the official price and the cost of goods. The consensus of businesses writing to the Treasury was $40.00/oz was good.

 

A further issue was philosophical and practical. In 1933 the U.S. dollar had differing values depending on the type of currency someone held. This meant that one man's dollar was not another man's dollar, and their two dollars did not purchase the same quantity of merchandise or food. A silver certificate was backed by a silver dollar, which contained a varying value of silver; a gold certificate was exchangeable for gold on demand; Federal Reserve Notes were subject to different exchange rules; National Bank Notes were backed by securities, and on and on. Certain percentages of backing were required for silver, gold, bonds and all of those were much smaller than the value of paper in circulation -- that had been case since the inception of national paper currency. TR and FDR both understood that political equality also requires economic opportunity equality.

 

I have a book in draft form called National Gold. It explains this, the gold standard, FRB Act and other matters clearly and directly, without BS or "gold bug" or political bias. Maybe I can one day find enough gold certificates to have it printed....

[seventee]

Thanks RWB.I hope to see your book,National Gold,one day.I wish you the best in this endeavor.

 

It's unlikely that I will be able to get permission from the Mint to shoot footage in there for my movie so that means I have to have a set built for the inside of the Mint that is true to the period in every detail.This is not going to be cheap.

 

I figure that I need to win Powerball for at least $50M.

 

When I do win,I'm good for $50K to help you get your book printed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kurtdog]

Did anyone go to jail in the '30's for hoarding gold coins?

From the accounts I've heard, the Treasury Department never bothered with jailings, and never prosecuted anybody for hoarding. I'll caution you, however, the documentation is sketchy on that point. There's this one documented incident, but it's not a jailing. Thursday, July 28, 1932, infamous hoarder, Marco Mondonanzi, cornered by Treasury Department officials, two bullets in the head. More recently, my good friend, Boombani Boombatzo, from Jersey City, he started his car, and now he's a highway. , hope this helps.

[CaptHenway]

Hoarding of money in all forms had been a major problem of the Hoover administration. He tried several times to control it, and failed every time. Hoarding removed money from circulation and thus prevented it from being used for goods, services, wages, taxes etc.

 

Since the Treasury controlled most gold in early 1933 (and had for decades), the real meaning was to frighten speculators and eventually (April) detach the dollar from an obsolete value of gold. (Without US price support, gold immediately jumped to $29.00/oz on open markets.) Disconnecting the dollar and gold (letting the dollar 'float') prevented foreign speculators and bankers from manipulating demand and hurting first one economy, then another. It also stopped much of the economic contagion by pulling the USA out of otherwise linked economies.

 

(As an aside: the stuff collectors seem to read on-line is largely biased BS. Do your research with open, but skeptical, eyes.)

 

It was also an opportunistic move to reset the value of gold to something closer to the world market after WW-I. During the war most prices doubled and miners could not extract gold and sell it for a profit at $20.67. They asked for subsidies, a gold tax, a gold surcharge rebated to the miners, and other relief. Some businesses couldn't pay their bills during and after the war due to the disparity between the official price and the cost of goods. The consensus of businesses writing to the Treasury was $40.00/oz was good.

 

A further issue was philosophical and practical. In 1933 the U.S. dollar had differing values depending on the type of currency someone held. This meant that one man's dollar was not another man's dollar, and their two dollars did not purchase the same quantity of merchandise or food. A silver certificate was backed by a silver dollar, which contained a varying value of silver; a gold certificate was exchangeable for gold on demand; Federal Reserve Notes were subject to different exchange rules; National Bank Notes were backed by securities, and on and on. Certain percentages of backing were required for silver, gold, bonds and all of those were much smaller than the value of paper in circulation -- that had been case since the inception of national paper currency. TR and FDR both understood that political equality also requires economic opportunity equality.

 

I have a book in draft form called National Gold. It explains this, the gold standard, FRB Act and other matters clearly and directly, without BS or "gold bug" or political bias. Maybe I can one day find enough gold certificates to have it printed....

 

That differing value is mostly theoretical. If in 1932 you had two $5 red seal United States Notes backed by nothing, a $10 silver certificate backed by ten silver dollars, a $10 Gold Certificate backed by a $10 gold coin in the Treasury vaults, or a $10 National backed by U.S. bonds somewhere, Joe down at the corner fish market was going to give you $10 worth of fish for either option. He wasn't going to give you $11 worth of fish for the Gold Certificate just for the halibut!

 

 

[seventee]

CaptHenway

Joe down at the corner fish market was going to give you $10 worth of fish for either option. He wasn't going to give you $11 worth of fish for the Gold Certificate just for the halibut!

 

I love halibut.Just can't afford it at $16/lb.

[RWB]

Capt.:

The differing values were more than theoretical - even as late as 1933. If a contract was paid in "dollars" the money could be in any dollar-denominated currency. Exchange rates varied according to the type of currency and it was a simple matter for large businesses and commercial banks to use exchange rates to buy a "cheaper" dollar to pay off a contract. This is why Victory Loan bonds and many large contracts stipulated payment only in gold. Removal of the gold standard and it's preference meant that all dollars were equal and of equal value in paying obligations.

 

The situation was much more pronounced in the 19th century but diminished after the Gold Standard Act of 1900.

[RWB]

There was no confiscation, no jail time, no fines and only a handful of court cases. The unauthorized export list assembled by Hoover's Treasury was never published or used for prosecution.

 

Just as during WW-I, when the Treasury stopped nearly all gold circulation, many people of ordinary means in 1933 sent a few coins or jewelry to the Mint to help. Everything under $100 in coin was returned as-is, and all jewelry and non-coin gold was returned regardless of value.

[DaveG]

Capt.:

The differing values were more than theoretical - even as late as 1933. If a contract was paid in "dollars" the money could be in any dollar-denominated currency. Exchange rates varied according to the type of currency and it was a simple matter for large businesses and commercial banks to use exchange rates to buy a "cheaper" dollar to pay off a contract. This is why Victory Loan bonds and many large contracts stipulated payment only in gold. Removal of the gold standard and it's preference meant that all dollars were equal and of equal value in paying obligations.

 

The situation was much more pronounced in the 19th century but diminished after the Gold Standard Act of 1900.

 

 

Roger,

 

I understand the monetary situation before the introduction of Greenbacks (Legal Tender or United States Notes) during the Civil War and during the period from the Civil War until the restoration of convertibility (of Greenbacks into gold at their face value) in 1879 and I know that most contracts were written with a definition of the gold dollar (mostly, I understood, as protection in the event that the US suspended convertibility), but are you saying that there were differing prices for Greenbacks vs. National Bank Notes vs. Gold after 1879?

 

Were these differing prices visible to ordinary consumers in the US or were they mostly a matter for businesses settling contracts with non-US counterparts?

 

How did it work for a business to pay off a contract with "cheaper" dollars?

 

(As you can probably tell, this is an area I've been interested in for years!)

[RWB]

U.S. Currency was quoted at variable exchange rates depending on the market (speculator) perception of which was the most reliable. Even the government effectively depreciated non-gold currencies by accepting only gold certificates (and physical gold) in payment of duties, and even in buying coins by banks. Buying U.S. currencies against the London market was commonplace, and large companies paid workers only in silver coin and non-gold currency which they could buy cheaply for gold, then pass the depreciated money to workers.

 

The average working class or middle class person never was part of currency manipulation so they were unaware of the effects.

 

(A not-too-distant example was the gold-silver exchange mess of 1893 [sic] when silver paper was exchanged for gold notes at par.)

[DaveG]

Roger,

 

Thanks - very interesting information.

 

I do recall reading about companies paying their workers in Trade Dollars that they had bought as silver bullion but paid out as if they were dollars, but I didn't know how widespread that was.

 

edited to add: and, of course, I haven't at all tracked the time periods after the Civil War when which form of payment was accepted for tariffs.

[CaptHenway]

There's something I need to look into. In "Illegal Tender," Tripp says (P. 61 ff.) that a sealed bag was opened by the Cashier after the first delivery from the Coiner so that he could take out two coins for immediate assay by the Assayer in D.C. (a very reasonable quality control measure), and 25 coins (one per thousand of the first 25,000 coins struck over several days) for the Trial of the Pyx to be held in February of 1934.

 

I was always under the impression that Pyx coins were set aside on the production floor from each batch as they were struck in the interest of random selection, and not all taken from one bag after the finished coins were delivered to the Cashier. It would seem to me that taking all of the assay coins from one bag would make it a lot easier to miss potentially bad coins from several other batches.

 

I recently did an article for COINage on the 1974 Assay Commission which my friend Ken Hallenbeck was on, and in his memorabilia of the event he had an empty envelope which once held two 1973 dollars set aside on the day that they were struck. The production date is on the envelope.

 

Was the practice of setting aside coins for the Pyx different in 1933, or only different for gold coins, or was Tripp guessing at/ making up the procedure? The process of opening the bag and withdrawing the 2 and 25 coins is written as though from a first-hand account, but there is no documentation of it in the Notes section, only references to Mint procedures at other times in the 20th Century.

 

I guess I need to start with the 1934 Assay Commission report.

 

Any other input would be appreciated.

 

TD

 

Edited to add: I am reliably informed that this non-randomized sampling of pyx coins was indeed standard operating procedure at the Mint in this era.

[RWB]

Pyx coins were selected 1:1,000 or fraction from each delivery. See the Coinage Act of 1873 for the law. Special Assay coins were selected at 2/delivery.

 

There was no limitation of the pyx coins....every delivery had to be represented. Hallenbeck's representation is correct.

 

The Assay Commission reports from about 1800-1943 are on a 4-DVD set available from Wizard Coin Supply.

 

Special Assay reports are scattered and incomplete and have never been digitized.

[CaptHenway]

I wonder if this FACT that the Mint was not following proper procedure with regard to the selection of pyx coins in 1933 could be used to bolster the suggestion that they were not following proper procedure in the distribution of 1933 double eagles in 1933 or subsequent years?

[seventee]

445,500 (total mintage of '33 doubles)/1000 ≈ 446 pieces of '33 Doubles for Annual Assay Commission inspection in 1934.

 

9 pieces destroyed by "annual" testing.437 returned to the Mint.

Illegal Tender,p.70

 

Total pieces destroyed by "specials" testing=

 

The total number of deliveries of '33 doubles to the cashier is of interest and is unknown to me,at this time.

 

One would take this number and multiply by 2 to arrive at the number of pieces destroyed by "specials" testing conducted in Washington D.C. within the year 1933.

 

Call the total number of deliveries number Omega,Ω.The number for '33's destroyed by "specials" testing would then be two x Omega or 2Ω.

 

445,500 minus 9 minus 2Ω=number of surviving '33 doubles out of the two bags from which coins were taken for assay,special and annual, + 445,000 '33's in sealed bags since 1933 in Vault F,Cage 1.

 

445,500 minus 9 minus 2Ω minus 445,000= (the number of survivors of '33's from the two unsealed bags of 250 each)

 

Call Sigma,Σ,the number of '33 doubles survivors out of the two bags of 250 each that were unsealed for purposes of assay.

 

(500) minus (9) minus (2Ω)=Σ.Switching from words to symbols for the math operations,

 

Σ=(491)-(2Ω)

 

Oh,wait a minute.I forgot to account for the two '33 doubles that Head Cashier George McCann himself sent to the Smithsonian in October,1934.

 

Sigma (Σ) now is the number of '33 Doubles that would remain under the direct control of the Cashier out of the two unsealed bags of 250 each after assay testing and 2 having been sent to Smithsonian.

 

491-2=489

 

Σ=(489)-(2Ω)

 

 

Tripp may have published the number (Ω) somewhere in his book but I just don't know.The 1933 Mint Daily Ledger should be useful in arriving at the correct number for Ω. If we know Ω,we can derive the value of Σ.

 

Anyone here know how many deliveries of '33 doubles,Coiner to Cashier were made in total? Was it 17?

 

There's still a problem with the numbers.If on each delivery of coins from the Coiner to the Cashier two coins must be used out of two different bags for the special assay,how is the number count in the two bags dealt with to make the count in the bags be the correct number?Two bags would be unsealed and a coin removed from each for special assay for each and every delivery. Would a coin from the first two opened bags (which passed assay) then be put in each bag at that point so that the number count for the newly opened bag is correct at 250?

 

Any thoughts about this are most welcome here.

 

 

[RWB]

Pyx and Special Assay coins were drawn from the same bag until the bag was empty. This was documented before January 2011. Ideally, all coins from the bag should have assayed the same.

 

A little research would have disclosed the details you are asking for....it has been published. The various counts in Frankel and Tripp books are good at a high level....those final numbers were what was important to the mint and Treasury.

 

PS: The cashier was part of the General Department which reported to the Superintendent. In accepting deliveries, the cashier acted for the Superintendent, as did the vault custodian, shipping clerk and others.

[seventee]

RWB

Pyx and Special Assay coins were drawn from the same bag until the bag was empty. This was documented before January 2011. Ideally, all coins from the bag should have assayed the same.

 

A little research would have disclosed the details you are asking for....it has been published. The various counts in Frankel and Tripp books are good at a high level....those final numbers were what was important to the mint and Treasury.

 

PS: The cashier was part of the General Department which reported to the Superintendent. In accepting deliveries, the cashier acted for the Superintendent, as did the vault custodian, shipping clerk and others.

 

All Pyx coins and special assay coins came from the first two bags only?

If that's what you are saying,I wasn't getting that from a previous post you made.

 

I'm trying to track the movements of coins in the first two bags that are opened.

 

Are you saying that no more bags of '33 doubles produced after the first delivery of 100 bags of 250 each were opened to select coins for assay or any other reason?

 

The math is not high level,just subtraction and addition.An understanding of the procedures that the Mint used is important to come up with the right formula,

however.

 

Tripp supposedly was able to account for all 500 coins from the first two bags that were opened.He concluded that no 1933 double left the mint lawfully,

excepting the two sent to the Smithsonian, from his analysis of the numbers,

the low level numbers,if you will.

 

I want to understand the accounting since there is no one place in his book where he shows how he did this.

 

 

 

 

[RWB]

Can't provide details until the case is settled.

 

The coiner gave the cashier a bag from the first delivery. Coins from this bag were used for all pyx and SA needs until it was empty, then another bag, from the current delivery, was opened and used until it was empty. If a partial bag remained, the coins were put in the cashier's vault, not in the storage vault.

 

Delivery dates and quantities are in the Annual Assay Report the originals of which are at NARA. The digital edition I made has images of the original reports...not transcriptions or summaries.

[seventee]

okay RWB.

Thanks.

[seventee]

Houston,we have a problem....

[CaptHenway]

Word ATS is that the Feds have asked for a 30-day extension of the appeal deadline so that the Solicitor General can chime in. It was pointed out that if the case were to go to the Supreme Court the S.G. would handle it.