1828 Mo JM 2 Reales & Resplandores by Mike Dunigan

[MaximilianMike]

Hello All

 

I just acquired this low grade 2 reales for $10. I thought the price was okay enough since they normally start for around $20 online.

 

What do you think about a grade of Fine and a price of $10?

 

Was it worth it?

 

Sorry about the low resolution photos, its the best I can do for now.

 

Second topic:

 

I have been bitten by the Cap and Rays bug and am wondering what the best reference for these beauties would be? Is the price of "Resplandores" by Mike Dunigan worth the scratch? Or is there a more cost friendly alternative to the meager mean's collector?

 

I am interested in history and attribution of these coins.

 

Thanks

 

Mike

 

[World Colonial]

I think you bought a pretty decent coin, especially for a circulated grade. Most of them are "washed out" and look terrible in grades below AU.

 

Which denomination do you want to collect? Resplendores only covers the 8R and the last price I saw for it was $125. I do not own it.

 

This is a design I also like, but I have never prioritized it, opting instead for numerous other series including Spanish colonial pillars. I own three of these coins: An 1894 Mo AM PCGS MS-64, 8R an 1847 Go PM NGC MS-61 4R and an 1867 NGC MS-65 but I cannot remember the mint or assayers.

 

Most collect the 8R because it is a large coin and its also the most available, thought the supply of 1/2R in better grades is also decent. The Real and 2R seem to be approximately equally scarce. The 4R is by far the scarcest.

 

I have seen a lot more of these than I used to, as in the last five years. Stacks auctioned the largest collection of minors I have ever seen sometime around May 2011 and I suspect that resales are probably the source for quite a few of these coins. Outside of this collection, I might have seen 10 MS 4R and maybe twice that many in better AU since I became paid attention to these coins starting around 2002.

 

 

[MaximilianMike]

I just started out with 8 reales myself. I also have several Portrait dollars and one very nice Pillar dollar, 1744 Mo. I have an 1846 8 Reales Zs in Au 50 and an 1875 Ca in AU 58. I collect world crowns but I am particularly or should I say almost exclusively interested in Mexican 8 Reales and minors as well as anything from Max's reign. Thanks for the reply!

 

Mike

[JKK]

I think F is a little high gradewise for the amount of wear, which is not to put the coin down at all, just that I'd give it a G at best based on the rims worn into the lettering. I like the design, though.

[MaximilianMike]

I don't disagree, I thought VG based on some a and d visible in Libertad. But still $10 seemed okay enough.

[JKK]

Of that you are a far better judge than me. It may be that they circulated heavily, which would mean that nice ones might be hard to find. Kind of like Barber dimes, which spent a lot of time being used as money, unlike for example Saints, which did not.

[World Colonial]

There aren't very many decent circulated coins in this series, even from the more common 8R which was issued in huge numbers as was the pillar dollar and presumably the portrait 8R (which I do not collect).

 

The rims do look worn on this example but I think the detail on the coin is consistent with a F grade, but regardless it still looks much better than most others I have seen which disproportionately look like they have been cleaned. It looks "original" to me where few others are.

 

I consider the denominations in this series much scarcer both in equivalent grade and in absolute terms than the contemporary US coinage.

 

The 8R was probably issued in larger numbers than the Morgan, but I have never heard of them being stored or saved by the tens of millions. There are probably small hoards of some date/MM combinations, but I don't believe they are large except maybe in isolation. The 1894 Mo (Mexico City) 8R I own, I believe the recorded mintage is slightly over 10 million. I consider it common, but I doubt more than a few thousand at most exist which meet the quaslity criteria which most US collectors use today. As a complete guess, maybe as many as 100,000 exist eligible for a MS grade as an absolute maximum and even if this is true, I presume it is disproportionately skewed toward the later dates, 1880's and later with even more in the 1890's. Though it is a lot more common than the other denominations, many mint and assayer combinations are very scarce and it isn;t practical to complete the entire DAM series. I believe it is possible for only a very low number to do so and possibly none in "high" grade due to the scarcity of some issues.

 

Outside of the 1880's and later dates, I believe that most of the earlier ones are (a lot) scarcer than most dates/MM in comporable quality from Liberty Seated and Trade dollars.

 

The other denominations are also a lot scarcer than half dimes, dimes, quarters and halves from either the Capped Bust and Liberty Seated coinage across all dates except when compared to "keys". So for example, the 1861 Mo CH 2R appears to be more common than quite a few large size Capped Bust quarters and the scarcer Liberty Seated dates including in MS. The 1847 Ga PM 4R I own, it is more common than the 1878-S half dollar overall but I am not sure it is in MS. Presumably, there are some duplicates but the last time I checked, the combined census listed 12 MS for the 1878-S half. I suspect only a few of these issues have this number and maybe none.

 

The point I am making is that there are only enough coins available for either a low or very low number of collectors who want to complete anything with this design. Most who do so will have to settle for combinations of "short sets" with a limited date range or from the most common mints, a completed set with widely ranging quality or both

 

I don't believe anyone who applies the quality criteria typically discussed here or on PCGS is going to have any success completing much of anything.

[MaximilianMike]

Thanks for the reply. I do not anticipate ever having a full set and I am one of those collectors who doesn't mind a nice VF example if the eye appeal is there. So collecting some lower grades is business as normal to me but I of course do appreciate a solid MS coin, it's normally my wallet that doesnt.

 

I have scoured over ebay as well as local coin shops. The thing that I like is there are many high grade examples that go for under $150 a coin, so that makes me happy. I just have to sift through and make sure I don't end up with a Chinese knock off.

 

I have collected US coins most of my life largely ignoring the quality coins from our Southern neighbors. But, I am putting the brakes on my US coin interests for now because I honestly feel like the market is a little too inflated for a modest means collector at this point.

 

 

[World Colonial]

At $150, someone can probably buy any number of 8R issues in MS-62. I don't pay close attention to them but I think this is a reasonable estimate. Prices on eBay are frequently absurd or exorbitant. The 1/2R is also available in MS-63 or MS-64 for less than this price and by today's standards, I think a reasonable value.

 

The 8R used to be a lot cheaper. The one I own, I think it has the eye appeal that US collectors want but there aren't many of them. I paid $45 for it from a World Coin Universe (PCGS affiliate) auction in 1998. It was one of the first coins I bought when I resumed collecting the same year. I suspect this coin would easily auction for $300 to $400 and probably more "retail", even though its probably one of the most common date/MM combinations.

 

Financially, I believe this series would potentially have a lot of potential if it wasn't for the supply constraints. I consider it the Morgan dollar of Mexican coinage and one which collectors in the US, Mexico and elsewhere will like because these coins also circulated widely as trade coinage and the design is very attractive.

[MaximilianMike]

Wold Colonial, what do you focus on in your collecting? You seem to know a great deal about the subject. I focused solely on Capped Bust Halves and anything and everything silver dollars but like I said I am now nearly exclusively focusef on a World Crown collection with a specific interest in Mexico.

 

Mike

[World Colonial]

I have four primary series:

 

Pillars minors; I have on occasion bough the pillar dollar but never made it a priority. The others are much scarcer and I find them a lot more challenging.

 

Bolivia Republic Decimals, mostly 1864-1909

 

South Africa Union issued form 1923-1960

 

Lion & Castle quarter real

 

I have bought other coins on occasion in the past but not any more, including the three Cap & Ray coins I listed here. Most of what I know is just from searching for these coins on eBay, dealer inventory and auctions for the last 15 years. I presume that there is a large proportional margin of error in my scarcity estimates but not in absolute terms.

 

There is also the defunct website "Mexican Coin Magic" which had some great articles, including each of these denominations. Contributor wrob was kind enough to show me how to find it up but I haven't done it again yet. Its in another recent thread on this forum and I would highly recommend you read it. Resplendores is great for the 8R (or so I hear) but there is no reference book for the others.

 

If you are interested in pillars, you should also buy "The Milled Columnarios of Central & South America" by Frank Gilboy. It was published in 1999 and is the best reference book I have ever seen or owned for any series. Good on history and attribution. There is a section on the period prior to its introduction and a chapter for each of the six mints. I don't agree with his rarity ratings but its probably partly because it was written before the internet transformed collecting.

 

 

 

 

 

[MaximilianMike]

I would love to have the Milled Columnarios book but can't afford the $400 price tag. I have on a rare occasion seen it auction for half that. I have only one Pillar Dollar and think I will not be purchasing another any time soon. They are awesome coins but very hard and expensive to obtain a set.

 

I went ahead and purchased resplandores. I am eager to get into it. I will check that website out.

 

Take Care.

[Westwood Arms]

I buy the book before the coin. As previously mentioned, the Gilboy book can not be beat. However there were only 500 made. Rick P. bought the remainders years ago and was doling them out, maybe check with Stacks.

 

For Republic coinage, Buttrey and Hubbard's "A Guide Book to Mexican coins 1822 to Date" is a must. The Sixth edition is best (and hard to find) but the fifth edition works.

 

There are a bunch of fakes out there. Robert Gurney's "Counterfeit Eight Reales" is worth picking up. "A Monograph Of The Silver Dollar: Good And Bad" by Riddell is classic and free online with Google books.

 

I am getting scared of the 8Rs, at the US MEX convention in Scottsdale last year there were a couple forums about fakes, yeah yeah, "listen to the coin," "know how the coin was made," "process cannot be duplicated," I asked about 3D printers: silence.

 

I know for a fact that the TPGs to not always get it right.

[Westwood Arms]

Oh, the dings on the 1828 2 Rs eagle's breast might warrant a details grade. A hoard of exceptional 1861 2Rs came out maybe 10 years ago. I picked up a NGC ms66 that is truly proof-like for $260.

[MaximilianMike]

I bought the book and I am familiar with the others you mentioned. Buying coins anymore is a scarey thing to me. That is why I don't mind paying a little more to be well educated. I looked at my coin again. The pictures aren't that great. What looks like dings is actually some sort of organic debris. Thanks for the information. I know Robert Gurney is active in another forum site under the tag swamperbob. I have read alot of his postings, they help alot.