Is Monticello up for sale?

[cpm9ball]

A recent (unofficial) survey conducted by the ANA indicates that more than 71% of the respondents do not favor a return to the Monticello reverse on the Jefferson nickel when the coinage commemorating the Lewis & Clark Expedition has ended.

 

What are your thoughts on this issue? Does anyone think that the Mint should redesign the nickel, both obverse and reverse? Or, should the Mint continue one of the "new" faces of Jeff with a reverse acknowledging......say......the Declaration of Independence......or......Jefferson as the founder of the University of Virginia.?

 

Chris

[Hoot]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, I think the nickel should be completely redesigned with allegorical figures, front and back. If we must live with the return of a dead president, then Jefferson is a superior choice in my book, but what about TR as an alternative? The abduction of the 5 cent nickel by the smug state of VA was political shenanigans at their worst. And Senators and Reps from other states were complacent to the issue - I know because I wrote them and received only 1 response, which was quite generic.

 

Since (at the present time) we are required by law to have Jefferson and Monticello return in 2006, I hope that they will either adopt a new portrait or keep the 2005 portrait in place. The Schlag series needs to come to a close.

 

Hoot

[goose3]

get rid of all of the dead people on coins!!

 

 

on a side note and not an attempt to hijack your thread.....have you ever visited Monticello??

 

I went there was I was a yoot and it sure was interesting!!! If you are ever "close" to there, make sure and go!

[cpm9ball]

Hey, Goose! No offense taken. I was under the impression that these boards were here just for that reason..to encourage the exchange of ideas on a variety of topics. In answer to your question, yes, I have been there several times. I was born and raised in the Maryland suburbs of Washington, D.C. I have been living in south Florida for the last 27 years, so it has been a long time since I was there. Many people aren't aware that Jefferson designed the home (as well as the University of Virginia), and it is my understanding that the house is being restored to its original design. It doesn't look anything like the one shown on the nickel. For people that aren't familiar with D.C. and the surrounding area, some of its monuments and historical buildings can be awe-inspiring. For example, Arlington National Cemetery is on the grounds of the Lee-Custis Plantation. It was once part of the Washington estate that extended all the way to Mount Vernon. Did you know that the National Aquarium is in the basement of the Treasury Building? Well, that's enough digression.

 

I agree with Hoot. Let's give Jeff a rest. However, I don't believe the legislation mandated a return to Monticello on the reverse, especially considering that it is being restored to its original design. Does anyone know what may be in the works?

 

 

Chris

[Hoot]

I know for a fact that Monticello is mandated to return to the reverse due to the passage of Rep. Eric Cantor's HR 258 in 2002 that specified that Jefferson return to the obverse and Monticello return to the reverse. The bill allowed for the commemorative nickels of 2004 and 2005 (and actually allowed for 2003), but with the stipulation that in 2006 the nickels return to Jeff/Mont. The designs do not have to be the Schlag designs, but they must depict Jefferson and Monticello.

 

I read the bill but unfortunatley did not keep a copy of it. Despair, I suppose. Does anyone have a link to it online?

 

Hoot

[JamminJ]

Jefferson and Monticello have had a great run. Now let's have something new, preferably allegorical.

 

-JamminJ

[cpm9ball]

Hoot, the January 3 issue of Coin World, p.74, identifies H.R.258, the American 5-Cent Coin Design Continuity Act of 2003, as Public Law 108-15, April 23, 2003.

 

According to Coin World:

"The legislation permits the Treasury Secretary to change the designs of the obverse and reverse of the 5-cent coin in 2003 (approval came too late to change the 2003 designs), 2004 and 2005, after which future U.S. 5-cent coins will bear representations of Thomas Jefferson and Monticello, his home."

 

This isn't the actual wording of the bill, but it is all I could find.

 

Chris

[TomB]

We should definitely replace TJ and Monticello with allegorical figures and themes, unfortunately, that would take insight, will and effort and so we know it ain't gonna happen.

 

I have been to Monticello and I believe it had been a rundown shell of its present-day self by the early 1900s after it had passed through the hands of several private ownerships. The last time I was at Monticello, in 1994, we could not go upstairs as the stairwell was more narrow than local code permitted. They also gave out change in the form of $2 bills when you paid for entry. Oddly, I recently found those crisp $2 my wife and I received in change in an old AAA tourbook. They had been sitting there for ten years!

 

Upon our visit to Monticello there was a chain cent proudly displayed within the home. It seems that the cent was uncovered near the slaves' quarters during excavation. The Parks Dept scrubbed the chain cent to a bright orange sheen and then glued it to a plank of wood as a disply piece.

[cpm9ball]

What about bin Laden on one side and a nuke on the other? Instead of "In God We Trust" put "Reward $50,000,000".

 

Chris

[Leothelion]

America has made a big mistake by not allowing many other great Presidents their dues on our coinage! 100 years for Lincohn, 73 for Washington, 59 for Roosevelt, 68 for Jefferson and 60 years for Kennedy! How patriotic is that! But our country holds a prejudices against those who are just as worthy to represent our country through our coinage then any President who has held the highest office of our country!

 

 

 

 

Leo

[Hoot]

Chris - Check out the Dec. 6th Coin World for the finalists of designs for the 2006 reverse. As mandated, they are all Monticello. Some reasonably good, some bad. And in the end, who knows what the heck the Mint will do to make trivial the vestige of the great home.

 

Unless there is further legislation, Jefferson will return to the obverse and Monticello to the reverse of the 2006 nickel. We can count on another 25 years of the theme. Sad, but likely.

 

Hoot

[cpm9ball]

Hoot, of the five designs shown, I prefer the one at the upper left. I don't think the "Floor Plan" would hold up too well in circulated condition. Besides, if you look at the restoration plans for Monticello, a lot of that will be removed. I think the other three designs with all of the wording on the lower half look terrible. That's just my opinion. What do you think?

 

Chris

[jom]

This law was the ultimate in polical correctness. I believe this is just another sign of the slow decline of this country when legislators are unwilling to change even our coinage.

 

The great designs and changes of the early 20th Century showed our growth and now sticking with these inept designs it's showing our decline. Sad.

 

jom

[Hoot]

Of the six designs presented on page 24 (Dec 6 Coin World), I like the left two (top and bottom). How much do you want to bet that we'll end up with the upper right or the miserable floor plan? I can't imagine what would possess someone to present a floor pland of a building on a coin! Phenomenal stupidity. Do they imagine that people will stud it for their architectural enrichment? And, like you say, what was the riginal building like? Pure trash.

 

I bear no hope for something nice. Truly, the only thing great would be a return to allegorical figures. All we can hope for now is something other than the Schlag designs.

 

Hoot

[cpm9ball]

Apparently, the lower right on p.24 is the one being recommended.

 

Chris

[Dry]

Let VA "rent" the reverse.

[chrisfuccione]

 

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c108:5:./temp/~c108g59R4N::

 

 

 

American 5-Cent Coin Design Continuity Act of 2003

 

(Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)

 

--H.R.258--

 

H.R.258

 

 

One Hundred Eighth Congress

 

of the

 

United States of America

 

AT THE FIRST SESSION

Begun and held at the City of Washington on Tuesday,

 

the seventh day of January, two thousand and three

 

An Act

 

To ensure continuity for the design of the 5-cent coin, establish the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee, and for other purposes.

 

 

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

 

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

 

This Act may be cited as the `American 5-Cent Coin Design Continuity Act of 2003'.

 

TITLE I--UNITED STATES 5-CENT COIN DESIGN CONTINUITY

 

SEC. 101. DESIGNS ON THE 5-CENT COIN.

 

(a) IN GENERAL- Subject to subsection (b) and after consulting with the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee and the Commission of Fine Arts, the Secretary of the Treasury may change the design on the obverse and the reverse of the 5-cent coin for coins issued in 2003, 2004, and 2005 in recognition of the bicentennial of the Louisiana Purchase and the expedition of Meriwether Lewis and William Clark.

 

(b) DESIGN SPECIFICATIONS-

 

(1) OBVERSE- If the Secretary of the Treasury elects to change the obverse of 5-cent coins issued during 2003, 2004, and 2005, the design shall depict a likeness of President Thomas Jefferson, different from the likeness that appeared on the obverse of the 5-cent coins issued during 2002, in recognition of his role with respect to the Louisiana Purchase and the commissioning of the Lewis and Clark expedition.

 

(2) REVERSE- If the Secretary of the Treasury elects to change the reverse of the 5-cent coins issued during 2003, 2004, and 2005, the design selected shall depict images that are emblematic of the Louisiana Purchase or the expedition of Meriwether Lewis and William Clark.

 

(3) OTHER INSCRIPTIONS- 5-cent coins issued during 2003, 2004, and 2005 shall continue to meet all other requirements for inscriptions and designations applicable to circulating coins under section 5112(d)(1) of title 31, United States Code.

 

SEC. 102. DESIGNS ON THE 5-CENT COIN SUBSEQUENT TO THE RECOGNITION OF THE BICENTENNIAL OF THE LOUISIANA PURCHASE AND THE LEWIS AND CLARK EXPEDITION.

 

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 5112(d)(1) of title 31, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the 4th sentence the following new sentence: `Subject to other provisions of this subsection, the obverse of any 5-cent coin issued after December 31, 2005, shall bear the likeness of Thomas Jefferson and the reverse of any such 5-cent coin shall bear an image of the home of Thomas Jefferson at Monticello.'.

 

(b) DESIGN CONSULTATION- The 2d sentence of section 5112(d)(2) of title 31, United States Code, is amended by inserting `, after consulting with the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee and the Commission of Fine Arts,' after `The Secretary may'.

 

SEC. 103. CITIZENS COINAGE ADVISORY COMMITTEE.

 

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 5135 of title 31, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

 

`Sec. 5135. Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee

 

`(a) ESTABLISHMENT-

 

`(1) IN GENERAL- There is hereby established the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee (in this section referred to as the `Advisory Committee') to advise the Secretary of the Treasury on the selection of themes and designs for coins.

 

`(2) OVERSIGHT OF ADVISORY COMMITTEE- The Advisory Committee shall be subject to the authority of the Secretary of the Treasury (hereafter in this section referred to as the `Secretary').

 

`(b) MEMBERSHIP-

 

`(1) APPOINTMENT- The Advisory Committee shall consist of 11 members appointed by the Secretary as follows:

 

`(A) Seven persons appointed by the Secretary--

 

`(i) one of whom shall be appointed from among individuals who are specially qualified to serve on the Advisory Committee by virtue of their education, training, or experience as a nationally or internationally recognized curator in the United States of a numismatic collection;

 

`(ii) one of whom shall be appointed from among individuals who are specially qualified to serve on the Advisory Committee by virtue of their experience in the medallic arts or sculpture;

 

`(iii) one of whom shall be appointed from among individuals who are specially qualified to serve on the Advisory Committee by virtue of their education, training, or experience in American history;

 

`(iv) one of whom shall be appointed from among individuals who are specially qualified to serve on the Advisory Committee by virtue of their education, training, or experience in numismatics; and

 

`(v) three of whom shall be appointed from among individuals who can represent the interests of the general public in the coinage of the United States.

 

`(B) Four persons appointed by the Secretary on the basis of the recommendations of the following officials who shall make the selection for such recommendation from among citizens who

are specially qualified to serve on the Advisory Committee by virtue of their education, training, or experience:

 

 

`(i) One person recommended by the Speaker of the House of Representatives.

 

`(ii) One person recommended by the minority leader of the House of Representatives.

 

`(iii) One person recommended by the majority leader of the Senate.

 

`(iv) One person recommended by the minority leader of the Senate.

 

`(2) TERMS-

 

`(A) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in subparagraph (B), members of the Advisory Committee shall be appointed for a term of 4 years.

 

`(B) TERMS OF INITIAL APPOINTEES- As designated by the Secretary at the time of appointment, of the members first appointed--

 

`(i) four of the members appointed under paragraph (1)(A) shall be appointed for a term of 4 years;

 

`(ii) the four members appointed under paragraph (1)(B) shall be appointed for a term of 3 years; and

 

`(iii) three of the members appointed under paragraph (1)(A) shall be appointed for a term of 2 years.

 

`(3) PRESERVATION OF PUBLIC ADVISORY STATUS- No individual may be appointed to the Advisory Committee while serving as an officer or employee of the Federal Government.

 

`(4) CONTINUATION OF SERVICE- Each appointed member may continue to serve for up to 6 months after the expiration of the term of office to which such member was appointed until a successor has been appointed.

 

`(5) VACANCY AND REMOVAL-

 

`(A) IN GENERAL- Any vacancy on the Advisory Committee shall be filled in the manner in which the original appointment was made.

 

`(B) REMOVAL- Advisory Committee members shall serve at the discretion of the Secretary and may be removed at any time for good cause.

 

`(6) CHAIRPERSON- The Chairperson of the Advisory Committee shall be appointed for a term of 1 year by the Secretary from among the members of the Advisory Committee.

 

`(7) PAY AND EXPENSES- Members of the Advisory Committee shall serve without pay for such service but each member of the Advisory Committee shall be reimbursed from the United States Mint Public Enterprise Fund for travel, lodging, meals, and incidental expenses incurred in connection with attendance of such members at meetings of the Advisory Committee in the same amounts and under the same conditions as employees of the United States Mint who engage in official travel, as determined by the Secretary.

 

`(8) MEETINGS-

 

`(A) IN GENERAL- The Advisory Committee shall meet at the call of the Secretary, the chairperson, or a majority of the members, but not less frequently than twice annually.

 

`(B) OPEN MEETINGS- Each meeting of the Advisory Committee shall be open to the public.

 

`© PRIOR NOTICE OF MEETINGS- Timely notice of each meeting of the Advisory Committee shall be published in the Federal Register, and timely notice of each meeting shall be made to trade publications and publications of general circulation.

 

`(9) QUORUM- Seven members of the Advisory Committee shall constitute a quorum.

 

`© DUTIES OF THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE- The duties of the Advisory Committee are as follows:

 

`(1) Advising the Secretary of the Treasury on any theme or design proposals relating to circulating coinage, bullion coinage, congressional gold medals and national and other medals produced by the Secretary of the Treasury in accordance with section 5111 of title 31, United States Code.

 

`(2) Advising the Secretary of the Treasury with regard to--

 

`(A) the events, persons, or places that the Advisory Committee recommends be commemorated by the issuance of commemorative coins in each of the 5 calendar years succeeding the year in which a commemorative coin designation is made;

 

`(B) the mintage level for any commemorative coin recommended under subparagraph (A); and

 

`© the proposed designs for commemorative coins.

 

`(d) EXPENSES- The expenses of the Advisory Committee that the Secretary of the Treasury determines to be reasonable and appropriate shall be paid by the Secretary from the United States Mint Public Enterprise Fund.

 

`(e) ADMINISTRATIVE SUPPORT, TECHNICAL SERVICES, AND ADVICE- Upon the request of the Advisory Committee, or as necessary for the Advisory Committee to carry out the responsibilities of the Advisory Committee under this section, the Director of the United States Mint shall provide to the Advisory Committee the administrative support, technical services, and advice that the Secretary of the Treasury determines to be reasonable and appropriate.

 

`(f) CONSULTATION AUTHORITY- In carrying out the duties of the Advisory Committee under this section, the Advisory Committee may consult with the Commission of Fine Arts.

 

`(g) ANNUAL REPORT-

 

`(1) REQUIRED- Not later than September 30 of each year, the Advisory Committee shall submit a report to the Secretary, the Committee on Financial Services of the House of Representatives and the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs of the Senate. Should circumstances arise in which the Advisory Committee cannot meet the September 30 deadline in any year, the Secretary shall advise the Chairpersons of the Committee on Financial Services of the House of Representatives and the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs of the Senate of the reasons for such delay and the date on which the submission of the report is anticipated.

 

`(2) CONTENTS- The report required by paragraph (1) shall describe the activities of the Advisory Committee during the preceding year and the reports and recommendations made by the Advisory Committee to the Secretary of the Treasury.

 

`(h) FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE ACT DOES NOT APPLY- Subject to the requirements of subsection (b)(8), the Federal Advisory Committee Act shall not apply with respect to the Committee.'.

 

(b) ABOLISHMENT OF CITIZENS COMMEMORATIVE COIN ADVISORY COMMITTEE- Effective on the date of the enactment of this Act, the Citizens Commemorative

Coin Advisory Committee (established by section 5135 of title 31, United States Code, as in effect before the amendment made by subsection (a)) is hereby abolished.

 

 

© CONTINUITY OF MEMBERS OF CITIZENS COMMEMORATIVE COIN ADVISORY COMMITTEE- Subject to paragraphs (1) and (2) of section 5135(b) of title 31, United States Code, any person who is a member of the Citizens Commemorative Coin Advisory Committee on the date of the enactment of this Act, other than the member of such committee who is appointed from among the officers or employees of the United States Mint, may continue to serve the remainder of the term to which such member was appointed as a member of the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee in one of the positions as determined by the Secretary.

 

(d) TECHNICAL AND CONFORMING AMENDMENTS-

 

(1) Section 5112(l)(4)(A)(ii) of title 31, United States Code, is amended by striking `Citizens Commemorative Coin Advisory Committee' and inserting `Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee'.

 

(2) Section 5134© of title 31, United States Code, is amended--

 

(A) by striking paragraph (4); and

 

(B) by redesignating paragraph (5) as paragraph (4).

 

TITLE II--TECHNICAL AND CLARIFYING PROVISIONS

 

SEC. 201. CLARIFICATION OF EXISTING LAW.

 

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 5134(f)(1) of title 31, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

 

`(1) PAYMENT OF SURCHARGES-

 

`(A) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no amount derived from the proceeds of any surcharge imposed on the sale of any numismatic item shall be paid from the fund to any designated recipient organization unless--

 

`(i) all numismatic operation and program costs allocable to the program under which such numismatic item is produced and sold have been recovered; and

 

`(ii) the designated recipient organization submits an audited financial statement that demonstrates, to the satisfaction of the Secretary, that, with respect to all projects or purposes for which the proceeds of such surcharge may be used, the organization has raised funds from private sources for such projects and purposes in an amount that is equal to or greater than the total amount of the proceeds of such surcharge derived from the sale of such numismatic item.

 

`(B) UNPAID AMOUNTS- If any amount derived from the proceeds of any surcharge imposed on the sale of any numismatic item that may otherwise be paid from the fund, under any provision of law relating to such numismatic item, to any designated recipient organization remains unpaid to such organization solely by reason of the matching fund requirement contained in subparagraph (A)(ii) after the end of the 2-year period beginning on the later of--

 

`(i) the last day any such numismatic item is issued by the Secretary; or

 

`(ii) the date of the enactment of the American 5-Cent Coin Design Continuity Act of 2003,

 

such unpaid amount shall be deposited in the Treasury as miscellaneous receipts.'.

 

(b) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendment made by subsection (a) shall apply as of the date of the enactment of Public Law 104-208.

Speaker of the House of Representatives.

 

Vice President of the United States and

 

President of the Senate.

[cpm9ball]

Thanks, Chris! Hoot was looking for a copy of it.

 

Chris M.

[Hoot]

Thanks Chris. There it is... in all of its glory.

 

Hoot

[CarlWohlforth]

Yup, a new design is overdue. I love the Jeffs, but, well, Hoot said it best. Lets have allegorical figures...

[Leothelion]

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 5112(d)(1) of title 31, United States Code, is amended by inserting after the 4th sentence the following new sentence: `Subject to other provisions of this subsection, the obverse of any 5-cent coin issued after December 31, 2005, shall bear the likeness of Thomas Jefferson and the reverse of any such 5-cent coin shall bear an image of the home of Thomas Jefferson at Monticello.

 

(b) DESIGN CONSULTATION- The 2d sentence of section 5112(d)(2) of title 31, United States Code, is amended by inserting `, after consulting with the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee and the Commission of Fine Arts,' after `The Secretary may'.

 

shall bear the likeness of is the key phrase here and after consulting may be another. Although it's Jefferson and the Monticello all over again, I would like to see a change in those designs. And the steps chase will be gone as well!

What would be more clever then another design feature to make the coin challengeing once again. What could top the steps for full strike purposes that would make it interesting to collect? How about a large 5 point star positioned behind a smaller original Schlag Monticello?

 

Leo

[Hoot]

Leo - check out Dec. 6th Coin World for the top choices. It appears that the Mint is now going down the road of the elevational view of Monticello - again! Hope they change their minds.

 

Hoot

[Leothelion]

Leo - check out Dec. 6th Coin World for the top choices. It appears that the Mint is now going down the road of the elevational view of Monticello - again! Hope they change their minds.

 

Hoot

 

That's just great!

 

Leo

 

It's time to start a petition!!

[cpm9ball]

Leo! Hoot!

 

When I started this thread, I was hoping that there would be more input. As it turned out, the 20+ responses were submitted by just 10 people. It would be nice if a petition changed Washington's thinking, but I doubt it. Maybe if I had given the thread another title, it would have aroused more controversy. Hoot, since you seem to be the resident Nickel Notable , perhaps you could start a new thread more to the point?

 

And now, I'm about to start a new thread on the Kennedy Half.

 

Thanks to everyone for their comments!

 

CPM

[chrisfuccione]

The thing that this bill also did was disband the Citizens Commemorative Coin Advisory Committee and replace it with the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee. The Citizens Commemorative Coin Advisory Committee was a non political advisory committee and the members were appointed by the Secretary of the Treasury and this new Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee's seven members are appointed by the Secretary of the Treasury and the other four members are appointed by the One person recommended by the Speaker of the House of Representatives. One person recommended by the minority leader of the House of Representatives.

One person recommended by the majority leader of the Senate. One person recommended by the minority leader of the Senate.

 

My feeling is that this was just the Virginia delegation having a hissy fit because they were not getting thier way with them.

Now instead of a committee that was non political we now are stuck with a committee that wil be tied down with politics and our coin designs will suffer.

[cpm9ball]

CF, before you know it we'll have elephants and, you know...that animal related to a mule.... I don't believe it, they made me edit it out, but the 7-letter description is more appropriate ....on our coinage during election years. Instead of the motto "In God We Trust" it shall declare... This coin will self-destruct once all of the chads have been counted!"

 

CM

[Hoot]

Yes, Chris, a very important change. The entire process is political, but I think it has been for a long time. We have a Treasury that will not exercise its authority to change coinage under the laws that permit them. Heck, there's not even a chief engraver any more. The artistic infusion program of modern day is a positive thing, but its window dressing for a very screwed up system for affecting positive change in our coinage design.

 

cpm9ball Chris - There is a fellow who visits us occasionally on these boards who has been involved with the political process of coinage redesign. He goes by GDJMSP. Here's a LINK that will guide you through what you can do to be active in the political process. There are many excellent suggestions in the thread, although some of the links may be outdated. I write my Senators and Rep about coin matters and nearly NEVER receive any reply. They are completely ignorant and complacent fools.

 

Hoot

[Hoot]

I just moved the thread to the top for you in the U.S. coin forum.

 

Hoot

[cpm9ball]

Aw, Hoot, don't be so hard on the politicians. Heck, if I contributed a ton of money to their campaigns I'll bet I could even get a portrait of Willie Mosconi on a coin.

 

I'll check out the link.

 

Thanks, Chris

[Oldtrader3]

I memory serves me correctly, Schlage had alternate Monticello renderings that showed the building at an oblique angle. These were much more attractive than the present face-on image. I wonder if Congress would consider these alternatives? Although political correctness will probably take precedence over artistic merit.