Are our educational programs getting worse, or.............

[cpm9ball]

..............is our hobby attracting more illiterates?

 

On another site that I won't mention, it seems that not only spelling, but also grammar, composition and punctuation is going to the dogs. These so-called collectors can't even express their thoughts in logical sentences. What will happen to this wonderful hobby when we no longer have intelligent instructors to teach the newcomers?

 

Chris

 

 

[Lastufka Collection]

Like any hobby, sport, area of interest, or even work place, you'll have dummies and you'll have those who are darn-near genius. Those who have the brains will raise to the top and those who don't, won't. I wouldn't worry too much about spelling and grammar on a forum. It's literally open to everyone. When printed articles and texts start going to hell, then I would worry.

[Mr. Smith Guesser]

Poor spelling, grammar, and punctuation doesn't really matter to me as much as composition and clarity. Spelling and grammar often change over time anyway.

[wdrob]

..............is our hobby attracting more illiterates?

 

On another site that I won't mention, it seems that not only spelling, but also grammar, composition and punctuation is going to the dogs. These so-called collectors can't even express their thoughts in logical sentences. What will happen to this wonderful hobby when we no longer have intelligent instructors to teach the newcomers?

 

Chris

 

 

been again my web site visiting huh?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RWB]

Well...the internet has certainly made ignorance and superficiality easier to attain and obtain.

 

Commercial shows (including the ANA) make limited efforts to integrate education with the bourse and auction. Thus, few go out of their way to attend a specialty meeting (SLCC or VAMworld, etc.) or one on some potentially interesting topic - unless there's free food.

[cpm9ball]

..............is our hobby attracting more illiterates?

 

On another site that I won't mention, it seems that not only spelling, but also grammar, composition and punctuation is going to the dogs. These so-called collectors can't even express their thoughts in logical sentences. What will happen to this wonderful hobby when we no longer have intelligent instructors to teach the newcomers?

 

Chris

 

 

been again my web site visiting huh?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wear it's was at?

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

I wouldn't worry too much about spelling and grammar on a forum. It's literally open to everyone. When printed articles and texts start going to hell, then I would worry.

 

To me, someone who doesn't care how they present themselves when they know better has some degree of low self-esteem.

 

Printed articles and texts have been going to pot for years. I used to laugh at the novice newspaper reporters who would receive approval for a local crime report that contained five paragraphs consisting of five sentences, all of which ended in the phrase, "the report said."

 

If education "advances" (?) to the point where things like this become acceptable, the youth of coming generations will suffer. There are only so many unskilled labor positions to go around.

 

Chris

[wdrob]

 

If education "advances" (?) to the point where things like this become acceptable, the youth of coming generations will suffer. There are only so many unskilled labor positions to go around.

Chris

 

And thus opens the door for my turn on the soapbox.

 

I do not think it would come as a surprise to anyone in particular, my announcement that I am not an educated man. I am fine with that. I do the best I can with what little grey matter God placed between my ears. However, even with my limited intellectual disposition I have watched the politicians for many years make their bold political stump speeches and include the inevitable: "We need to ensure that each and every child that wants to go to college, can and will go to college, regardless of their socio-economic status".

 

That sounds great on the surface but once we look at this 'utopian' view of the educational system from a pragmatic stance, even the intellectually challenged person such as myself can clearly see that sending every kid to college will not work. Our society is not intended to work like that. Actually there isn't any culture in which that would be practical.

 

Why? Simple fact is, there are so many necessary unskilled occupations in our society that filling those positions with college graduates would completely throw the wage structure out of whack and lead to massive inflation on the scale we could not even imagine.

 

Do you really want to live in a society where the guy that empties your trash container is holding a bachelors degree? Instead of $17.50 per month for waste disposal, try $125.00 a month. Instead of $75.00/hr in labor costs repairing your vehicle, force that auto repair shop owner to be limited to a pool of college graduates to fill that mechanic position and see the rate skyrocket to $350.00/hr.

 

No, not me. I think I can accept the occasional cryptographical attempt at communicating effectively and keep my waste disposal rate under $20.00 / month.

 

so if i be talking funny and aint gunna understnd spelling gramar or punktuations then dis just be me culture and u half tu just get ust to it

 

 

 

 

[Kurtdog]

Poor spelling, grammar, and punctuation doesn't really matter to me as much as composition and clarity.

Ah, I don't know. Even a comma is important. Take these two sentences. They don't mean the same thing:

 

"Let's eat, Grandma."

"Let's eat Grandma."

[RWB]

They do if you're the Wolf !

[cpm9ball]

Roger, the kids today shouldn't need to go to college to learn how to use the English language correctly.

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

Poor spelling, grammar, and punctuation doesn't really matter to me as much as composition and clarity.

Ah, I don't know. Even a comma is important. Take these two sentences. They don't mean the same thing:

 

"Let's eat, Grandma."

"Let's eat Grandma."

 

Roger only says the first when Grandma is buying.

 

Chris

[Mr. Smith Guesser]

Poor spelling, grammar, and punctuation doesn't really matter to me as much as composition and clarity.

Ah, I don't know. Even a comma is important. Take these two sentences. They don't mean the same thing:

 

"Let's eat, Grandma."

"Let's eat Grandma."

 

Hahahaha...Okay, yes in this example the comma is quite important. But as long as the general message is effectively conveyed, I'm not going to rake someone over the coals over punctuation.

[TonerGuy]

If education "advances" (?) to the point where things like this become acceptable, the youth of coming generations will suffer. There are only so many unskilled labor positions to go around.

Chris

 

And thus opens the door for my turn on the soapbox.

 

I do not think it would come as a surprise to anyone in particular, my announcement that I am not an educated man. I am fine with that. I do the best I can with what little grey matter God placed between my ears. However, even with my limited intellectual disposition I have watched the politicians for many years make their bold political stump speeches and include the inevitable: "We need to ensure that each and every child that wants to go to college, can and will go to college, regardless of their socio-economic status".

 

That sounds great on the surface but once we look at this 'utopian' view of the educational system from a pragmatic stance, even the intellectually challenged person such as myself can clearly see that sending every kid to college will not work. Our society is not intended to work like that. Actually there isn't any culture in which that would be practical.

 

Why? Simple fact is, there are so many necessary unskilled occupations in our society that filling those positions with college graduates would completely throw the wage structure out of whack and lead to massive inflation on the scale we could not even imagine.

 

Do you really want to live in a society where the guy that empties your trash container is holding a bachelors degree? Instead of $17.50 per month for waste disposal, try $125.00 a month. Instead of $75.00/hr in labor costs repairing your vehicle, force that auto repair shop owner to be limited to a pool of college graduates to fill that mechanic position and see the rate skyrocket to $350.00/hr.

 

No, not me. I think I can accept the occasional cryptographical attempt at communicating effectively and keep my waste disposal rate under $20.00 / month.

 

so if i be talking funny and aint gunna understnd spelling gramar or punktuations then dis just be me culture and u half tu just get ust to it

 

 

 

 

Yep. The world needs ditch diggers too...

[ldhair]

I just want to understand what they are trying to say.

It's not easy with some folks.

[WoodenJefferson]

They be lost if there's more than140 characters.

[Conder101]

Commercial shows (including the ANA) make limited efforts to integrate education with the bourse and auction. Thus, few go out of their way to attend a specialty meeting (SLCC or VAMworld, etc.) or one on some potentially interesting topic - unless there's free food.

Part of the reason for that is that the number of collectors who truly want to learn something is rather small. A very large part of our hobby is populated who only care about values, and believe that everything they need to know is printed on slab labels.

[cpm9ball]

They be lost if there's more than140 characters.

 

140? You must be including numbers.

 

Chris

[RWB]

In conveying the general message, English grammar is very forgiving. If the Grandma sentence is spoken the meaning depends on inflection and nonverbal communication. But when specific meanings and nuances are critical, the details of basic English become very important. In coin collecting, as in many subjects, there is a tendency to reinvent the meanings of words either for profit or to obscure the truth. (The "curated" vs "cleaned" nonsense is a good example.)

 

When writing emails or message board posts, usually the "general message" approach is sufficient. But for publication - especially where the material is potentially new to readers or is complicated - solid language skills have to be employed. A good copy editor can save an author's butt.

[dadams]

One of my favorite authors, Cormac McCarthy, eschews punctuation: "if you write properly you shouldn’t have to punctuate.”

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

In an advanced culture numismatics, philately and other collectibles hobbies with strong historical backgrounds would be integrated into core curriculums. I have taught in area city schools which are security-based with guards called up frequently for misbehavior. How can kids learn in combative environments? But in a system where social darwinism seems to prevail in a perverse way, who will rise to the top? The entertainers and those with strong cash incentives to achieve "success". The grammy awards are an example of cultural trends as well as other events where those on the top of their fields are lauded--for what? Cultural excellence? Not usually.

 

Fortunately there are many kids getting the grammatical instruction they want and their parents require. The cultural fragmentation sometimes furthered by electronic devices does not help.

[BillJones]

I have dyslexia so reading and writing can be a challenge for me. Sometimes my mind goes faster than my fingers, and sometimes what's in my mind does not make to the screen. Most often I leave out adverbs like "not" which can really mess up the meaning of a post.

 

I do apologize for that, but sometimes it's just not easy to get everything right, when you are reversing letters all the time.

 

[cpm9ball]

One of my favorite authors, Cormac McCarthy, eschews punctuation: "if you write properly you shouldn’t have to punctuate.”

 

 

I'll bet it's because his wife won't let him get a word in edgewise.

 

Chris

[RWB]

Anyone recall the Dizzy Dean vs English teachers' fuss? It happens all the time -- that's where dictionaries came from.

[coinman_23885]

Roger, the kids today shouldn't need to go to college to learn how to use the English language correctly.

 

Chris

 

+1

 

 

[Kurtdog]

Poor spelling, grammar, and punctuation doesn't really matter to me as much as composition and clarity.

Ah, I don't know. Even a comma is important. Take these two sentences. They don't mean the same thing:

 

"Let's eat, Grandma."

"Let's eat Grandma."

Hahahaha...Okay, yes in this example the comma is quite important. But as long as the general message is effectively conveyed, I'm not going to rake someone over the coals over punctuation.

FWIW, I agree with you. But Chris' point stands. And when illiteracy is right around the corner, surely, these educational programs necessarily have to take that into account.

 

[RWB]

Good language and communication skills are built from the beginning and reinforced by social patterns and peers.

[Mr. Smith Guesser]

I believe that there is a psychological element to the feeling that society and culture (which would include things like language, morality, art, etc.) is in a constant state of degradation -- The "world is going to hell in a handbasket" mentality.

 

This belief is probably most well outlined in Ovid's Metamorphoses and Hesiod's Works and Days. However, there are perhaps more recognizable accounts of this belief, such as the biblical story of the Garden of Eden and the fall of man.

 

I am not a psychologist, nor did I study psychology in school. However, because this pessimistic outlook has been held by countless people throughout all of history, I can only assume that it is the product of human psychology.

 

Personally, I don't buy into the degradation of humanity. I do not believe that society and culture are changing for the worse...or for the better, for that matter. Of course, today is different than yesterday. And tomorrow will be different than today. But I believe that the only constant is change -- whether that means language, social acceptance, artistic expressions, or whatever -- things are always going to change. Again, I'm not saying that I think the general change is for the better or for the worse. From my perspective, things are just a little different than they used to be.

 

Bob Dylan put it best in 1964:

[World Colonial]

In an advanced culture numismatics, philately and other collectibles hobbies with strong historical backgrounds would be integrated into core curriculums.

 

Interesting subject but I disagree with your premise. I don't believe that numismatics or any other hobby is remotely important enough to be included in any core curriculum. It is a "nice to know" but not remotely a "need to know". I can think of many other cultural topics that I consider a lot more important that should be, but numismatics sure isn't one of them.

[World Colonial]

I agree with your "soap box" sentiments completely.

 

I would also add there is a difference between education and formal schooling which is what most have in mind when using the term today. I have a master's degree but so do many others today. But however many have it or don't have it, going to school for 12, 16 or any other number of years doesn't in and of itself make anyone educated. From what I can see, the record number of degree holders today have accomplished the distinctive feat of not really knowing much about anything in many instances.

 

I would say that I have knowledge about a lot of things that others don't, but not anywhere nearly as much as I should. The primary reason for this is that I never really applied myself until I went to university and even then, my opinion of the curriculum is that much or even most of it was a waste of time, both in terms of actual value but also knowledge. Most of the knowledge I have I picked on my own just because I was interested in the topic.

 

In terms of the practical aspects you raised, I have another view.

 

First, providing anyone and everyone with the opportunity to obtain a university degree does nothing to increase the actual demand for graduates in the work force. To my knowledge, there is a (huge) glut in many fields and I expect this will only get worse as those in one country compete in a global labor market. I agree it makes sense for most people as individuals to pursue a degree where they can, but not in the aggregate.

 

Second, there are many jobs that don't require a degree at all. It is a form of "gradeflation" (as in academics and in coins) where employers can demand it because there is a huge pool of candidates with it and this demand in turn forces applicants to obtain these paper qualifications to qualify for better paying work.

 

Third, there are a vast number of students pursuing degree programs who have no business academically being in one and also a large number of post secondary institutions with no business awarding diplomas. Think many for profit schools but for both these and traditional schools, its the student loan program which has created this distortion because wihtout it, no same lender would make any most or even any of these loans. The existence of both cheapens the value of a diploma and as long as current policy continues, will continue to do so.