So you buy a PCGS graded toned coin from...

[TonerGuy]

an EBay dealer that is well known on the boards...

 

The coin is advertised as "amazingly toned" "wowzers" and a perfect coin for the "toned coin lover."

 

The coin arrives and it is as pretty as suggested and then you turn the slab over to look at the reverse and there's a sticker on it that says "AT CLR."

 

No mention of it even possibly being AT in the listing though. And the photos werent that great that it was readily apparent.

 

Thoughts ?

 

 

 

 

[Deerefan8420]

What is the grade on the holder? Assuming that it is straight graded, PCGS must have thought it was NT/MA. Have you emailed the seller to ask what the "AT CLR" means specifically? I'm assuming you think it means "Artificial Color" but it could be something completely different the seller uses to mark his/her coins.

[e1cnr]

I think it must be short for

Amazingly Toned CoLoR

 

 

And the color sellers are heavy on 'consignments', so it is possible they do not know what it means either, but came with the group they are selling for XXX.

[Mozin]

Settle down. If PCGS graded it, and this coin was advertized with "Amazing Color", I think you likely have a better than average PCGS graded coin.

[AHFreak]

Well..... Lets see the pics of the coin?

[TonerGuy]

I think it must be short for

Amazingly Toned CoLoR

 

. Nice.

 

The coin straight graded. And the color is very pretty and at the same time very unusual. Unfortunately the sellers pics dont really capture the color on the coin (blues and reds on the obverse and golds/yellows on the reverse).

 

I will try to take some photos tomorrow and post them though.

 

The seller sold the coin as being from his personal collection. It could very well be a lie though.

[jom]

So if the sticker does have some hidden secret then WHO do you believe? PCGS or the seller? Evidently PCGS thinks the coin is MA so why does it matter what the seller thinks? More importantly once you get it in hand what will YOU think? That's all that matters.

 

Actually, I think e1cnr had it right....

 

jom

[coinman_23885]

This thread is worthless without pictures...

 

Edited: Is this the piece? If so, while the images have a lot to be desired, I don't see anything that jumps out and screams AT to me. At the very least it looks MA and that is all that matters.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-P-Amazingly-Toned-PCGS-MS64-Ike-Dollar-WoWzer-/361167840677?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item541747e5a5&nma=true&si=BxZ9G0UkfHIYR582n2QvJIHDZkQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[messydesk]

Thoughts ?

Peel off the sticker. Problem solved.

[coinman_23885]

Thoughts ?

Peel off the sticker. Problem solved.

 

+1

[PerryHall]

an EBay dealer that is well known on the boards...

 

The coin is advertised as "amazingly toned" "wowzers" and a perfect coin for the "toned coin lover."

 

The coin arrives and it is as pretty as suggested and then you turn the slab over to look at the reverse and there's a sticker on it that says "AT CLR."

 

No mention of it even possibly being AT in the listing though. And the photos werent that great that it was readily apparent.

 

Thoughts ?

 

Is this coin copper, silver, nickel, or what? There's a product called CLR which is a liquid clearer for removing calcium buildup. I wonder if someone used some CLR to AT this coin. Does someone here have some CLR to experiment with a junk coin? I'm guessing that the seller forgot to remove this sticker before he sent it out. I'm always very suspicious of those coins with toning that's "amazing" or "wowzers" and I don't trust the grading companies to always catch these created artistic masterpieces. As long a people pay crazy prices for these colorful coins people will create them to profit from this market.

 

[coinman_23885]

Is this coin copper, silver, nickel, or what? There's a product called CLR which is a liquid clearer for removing calcium buildup. I wonder if someone used some CLR to AT this coin. Does someone here have some CLR to experiment with a junk coin? I'm guessing that the seller forgot to remove this sticker before he sent it out. I'm always very suspicious of those coins with toning that's "amazing" or "wowzers" and I don't trust the grading companies to always catch these created artistic masterpieces. As long a people pay crazy prices for these colorful coins people will create them to profit from this market.

 

Maybe one of the chemistry Ph.D. holders here will chime in, but looking at the ingredient list contained in the MSDS for CLR, I cannot think of a chemical mechanism that would induce toning on a coin. I think it would actually have the opposite effect and may inhibit/remove toning.

 

Ingredients: Water, Lactic Acid, Gluconic Acid, Lauramine Oxide,

Propylene Glycol, n-Butyl Ether.

 

http://www.jelmar.com/msds/CLR_MSDS_eng.pdf

[Raisethis2]

If the coin has great color and it's in a holder there is nothing to consider. As messydesk said, peel off the sticker and the problem goes away.

[TonerGuy]

Coinman is quite the detective...

 

Yes that is the coin in the link and yes the photos are less than desirable and they hardly show the coin's true color. I will post more later but it appears the most that have responded to the thread more photos arent necessary. PCGS said it was MA so therefore what more is there to say or question...

 

I am in no way displeased with the coin. Its one of the nicer 1974 toned Ikes Ive seen. The price was unbelievable. And the seller is well known for Ikes. Do I trust his opinion (assuming the sticker means Artificial Color) more than PCGS - actually yes.

 

So to me this raises the question -- do we really care if the coin is AT or NT as long as its been graded and blessed by PCGS or NGC (and possibly by ANACS and to some by CAC) ?

 

I can honestly say as a newbie toned coin aficionado I use to care, now - not so much.

[Coindude]

I find this guy entertaining. I like his DIVA sticker!

[brg5658]

I find this guy entertaining. I like his DIVA sticker!

 

The DIVA isn't "his" sticker -- that's from the Ike variety collectors group...

[physics-fan3.14]

So to me this raises the question -- do we really care if the coin is AT or NT as long as its been graded and blessed by PCGS or NGC (and possibly by ANACS and to some by CAC) ?

 

Yes, I care. When examining toning, I use my own judgement and only buy what looks good to me (that is, what I find attractive and consider to be natural, with a high probability).

 

Incidentally, I do the same thing when grading the coin - I use my own knowledge, grade the coin for myself, and either buy it or don't based on my grade (and value) - not the dealer, not the TPG, and not any FPG.

[coinman_23885]

PCGS said it was MA so therefore what more is there to say or question...

 

What I meant is that based on the holder generation, the coin appears stable. And given the price paid, as long as it is MA, you should be able to sell the piece if you don't like it.

[david3142]

Interestingly, I recently spoke with Legend and was advised to only buy CAC Ikes. She said many of the TPG coins are AT, even in PCGS holders. That being said, the coin is almost certainly MA so from a value standpoint I think you did fine.

[e1cnr]

Is this coin copper, silver, nickel, or what? There's a product called CLR which is a liquid clearer for removing calcium buildup. I wonder if someone used some CLR to AT this coin. Does someone here have some CLR to experiment with a junk coin? I'm guessing that the seller forgot to remove this sticker before he sent it out. I'm always very suspicious of those coins with toning that's "amazing" or "wowzers" and I don't trust the grading companies to always catch these created artistic masterpieces. As long a people pay crazy prices for these colorful coins people will create them to profit from this market.

 

Maybe one of the chemistry Ph.D. holders here will chime in, but looking at the ingredient list contained in the MSDS for CLR, I cannot think of a chemical mechanism that would induce toning on a coin. I think it would actually have the opposite effect and may inhibit/remove toning.

 

Ingredients: Water, Lactic Acid, Gluconic Acid, Lauramine Oxide,

Propylene Glycol, n-Butyl Ether.

 

http://www.jelmar.com/msds/CLR_MSDS_eng.pdf

 

the acids in there would strip any layers of toning

[physics-fan3.14]

Interestingly, I recently spoke with Legend and was advised to only buy CAC Ikes. She said many of the TPG coins are AT, even in PCGS holders. That being said, the coin is almost certainly MA so from a value standpoint I think you did fine.

 

Legend is Notoriously PCGS-CAC only.... of course they would tell you to only buy CAC. You have to look at the (incredibly strong) bias of the person talking when someone says something.

[Kurtdog]

I leave it to the pros because I'm not as smart as them. And even if I was as smart as them I'd still leave it to them because I'm busy. And even if I wasn't busy I'd still leave it to them because I could give a rat's about this question.

[TonerGuy]

I leave it to the pros because I'm not as smart as them. And even if I was as smart as them I'd still leave it to them because I'm busy. And even if I wasn't busy I'd still leave it to them because I could give a rat's about this question.

 

And thats what I think most people do... they might give more than a rat's a*s though.

 

So to me this raises the question -- do we really care if the coin is AT or NT as long as its been graded and blessed by PCGS or NGC (and possibly by ANACS and to some by CAC) ?

 

Yes, I care. When examining toning, I use my own judgement and only buy what looks good to me (that is, what I find attractive and consider to be natural, with a high probability).

 

Incidentally, I do the same thing when grading the coin - I use my own knowledge, grade the coin for myself, and either buy it or don't based on my grade (and value) - not the dealer, not the TPG, and not any FPG.

 

Well thats the issue - high probability. Thats a statistical analysis based on your own opinion - which isnt really a statistical analysis. Now dont get me wrong - I think you are 100% correct and I try to do the same I just came to the realization that no one (not me, not you, not PCGS, not NGC, not CAC) can ever get it 100% right and therefore why stress about something that at best might be 75% correct. Just enjoy the coin because it is aesthetically pleasing.

 

Interestingly, I recently spoke with Legend and was advised to only buy CAC Ikes. She said many of the TPG coins are AT, even in PCGS holders. That being said, the coin is almost certainly MA so from a value standpoint I think you did fine.

 

I believe that as well - from my own in hand evaluations of numerous toned Ikes. As I have stated on these boards PCGS is notoriously lax when it comes to modern toners as compared to NGC. As for CAC being able to identify AT from NT - I dont necessarily trust their judgement in regards to Ikes. I think James Sego's new modern service will do a much better job than even CAC. He's a well know specialist in Ikes. He's probably seen everything there is to see when it comes to Ikes. I know CAC doesnt even certified proof Ikes (or they werent) which I dont understand since they are doing business strikes.

[coinman_23885]

Now dont get me wrong - I think you are 100% correct and I try to do the same I just came to the realization that no one... can ever get it 100% right and therefore why stress about something that at best might be 75% correct. Just enjoy the coin because it is aesthetically pleasing.

 

Maybe I'm confused, but it seems to me that you are doing exactly that - stressing over a sticker attached to a plastic slab that is ambiguous at best. And believe it or not, there is a market for AT coins. If the piece is as attractive as you suggest that it is, you could find someone to buy it from you for your purchase price even if it was in an UNC Details holder.

[TonerGuy]

Im not stressing. Just because I post a thread about it doesnt mean its an issue for me - rather it might be a start to a lively and interesting discussion. Which it has been.

This thread could have gone many ways...

 

But how many CAC threads have been on this board talking about a "sticker attached to a plastic slab" - so this sticker happen to be handwritten by a seller/buyer but is it really any different then a CAC green bean or even a gold bean ? It just an opinion... the interesting aspect is that some in this thread said just remove it and the problem is solved. But yet many will sell off coins just because they dont have a sticker.

 

[MarkFeld]

[quote=TonerGuy....

 

But how many CAC threads have been on this board talking about a "sticker attached to a plastic slab" - so this sticker happen to be handwritten by a seller/buyer but is it really any different then a CAC green bean or even a gold bean ? It just an opinion... the interesting aspect is that some in this thread said just remove it and the problem is solved. But yet many will sell off coins just because they dont have a sticker.

 

 

Yes, that sticker is very different from a CAC sticker, even though both types of stickers represent "opinions". As you already know, some opinions are much more informed and/or carry a great deal more weight than others.

[messydesk]

Another reasonable explanation of this sticker is that it's inventory and/or cost codes.

[Kurtdog]

I leave it to the pros because I'm not as smart as them. And even if I was as smart as them I'd still leave it to them because I'm busy. And even if I wasn't busy I'd still leave it to them because I could give a rat's about this question.

And thats what I think most people do... they might give more than a rat's a*s though.

Why? When it doesn't hurt the technical condition of the coin, why? Why is it incumbent upon you to play head games with tarnish, when it doesn't affect the technical condition of the coin? That's what I don't get.

[bochiman]

I've dealt with the seller on the PCGS boards.

Brian is/was a good guy.

 

If you have a question, why not just ask him? He hasn't been on the PCGS boards for a few years, but you could message him through ebay, obviously.

 

He knows his Ikes.

[coinman_23885]

Another reasonable explanation of this sticker is that it's inventory and/or cost codes.

 

Absolutely. He is assuming that "AT" is an acronym when it could simply be the preposition "at." At one point I had boxes at multiple financial institutions. Some people have multiple safes, and dealers (I don't know if the seller is one) have multiple coin shops. CLR could be the location.