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What is going on with this 1931D Saint?

Started by CSdot,

36 posts in this topic

CSdot

CSdot

Posted
Posted

Not my coin, and not one in my 2015 coin budget, but that doesn't stop me from looking.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1931-D-ST-GAUDENS-20-PCGS-MS-65-/201253530129?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2edba52a11

 

This is one of the very rare dates that most collectors can only dream of owning, but spending this much money one would want only the best. What is causing the cloudy appearance on this coin? Putty? Has the coin been doctored?

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

Surface contamination of some sort?

Sharp dings are visible beneath the surface color on both sides, so it is unlikely to be residue from "putty."

 

At present it is certainly an ugly duckling.

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted
Don't know. Possibly old, dried-out PVC oil?

 

That's an interesting thought. I know that some coin doctors will also use PVC film/haze to attempt to cover blemishes too (in lieu of putty). Do you think this is what happened here? I haven't ever seen the film turn colors/progress as much - that's why I am curious/fascinated by your suggestion .

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted
It looks like the coin was puttied to me.

 

On a coin worth that much, you would think that the seller would send it back to PCGS to have it restored.

 

I'm about 99% sure that is putty....that's what it looks like once it's changed in the holder...at least from my experience.

 

Brylcreem ?

 

A little dap will do ya!

 

jom

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millrat41-migration

millrat41-migration

Posted
Posted

PVC is my guess. I had one with similar on it:

saintcrud001.jpg

 

Many said putty, but I don't think so. If it was putty, it was the most ham fisted putty job ever. Besides, there wasn't anything under the stuff (hairlines or contact marks) to hide. Back then, PCGS would take care of such issues without charge.

2620d2_zpsischh0vu.jpg

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
It looks like the coin was puttied to me.

 

On a coin worth that much, you would think that the seller would send it back to PCGS to have it restored.

 

I'm about 99% sure that is putty....that's what it looks like once it's changed in the holder...at least from my experience.

 

Brylcreem ?

 

A little dap will do ya!

 

jom

 

"dab", not "dap". :frustrated:

 

;)

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

Mark -- The "youngsters" just don't have the cultural experience to separate "dap" from "dab." :)

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CSdot

CSdot

Posted
  • Author
Posted
PVC is my guess. I had one with similar on it:

saintcrud001.jpg

 

Many said putty, but I don't think so. If it was putty, it was the most ham fisted putty job ever. Besides, there wasn't anything under the stuff (hairlines or contact marks) to hide. Back then, PCGS would take care of such issues without charge.

2620d2_zpsischh0vu.jpg

 

What causes the striped effect on the reverse of these coins? I have noticed it, and have always thought the lighter stripes look like the original color of the coin, but that the deep orange hue on the rest of the coin was the toning. In fact, I find that deep orange hue to be a very attractive look on these coins.

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

...I sure hope not!....

 

The High School girls had a product called "Dippity Do!" Which, according to one girl "didn't."

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CaptHenway

CaptHenway

Posted
Posted

Back when television was funny, Johnny Carson had a Carnak routine wherein the answer was:

 

"Dippity Do"

 

and the question was

 

"What is it that forms on your dippity in the morning?"

 

 

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WoodenJefferson

WoodenJefferson

Posted
Posted

dapperdan_zps78671208.jpg

 

Something strange is going on...look at the tail feathers in the whole slab photo, it's different than the tail feathers in circular cropped photo?

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WoodenJefferson

WoodenJefferson

Posted
Posted

Me & Howie Long used Butch Wax... hm I think Howie still uses that stuff.

 

You put your finger into the jar, come out with a gob and slather it across the comb...with vertical strokes, stiffen the leading edge of your flat top.

 

Maybe it's pomade on the Saint?

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted
It looks like the coin was puttied to me.

 

On a coin worth that much, you would think that the seller would send it back to PCGS to have it restored.

 

I'm about 99% sure that is putty....that's what it looks like once it's changed in the holder...at least from my experience.

 

Brylcreem ?

 

A little dap will do ya!

 

jom

 

"dab", not "dap". :frustrated:

 

;)

 

You are correct of course but believe it or not it was a typo!

 

And...unfortunately....I AM old enough to remember this and "the wet head is dead". lol

 

jom

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted
PVC is my guess. I had one with similar on it:

saintcrud001.jpg

 

Many said putty, but I don't think so. If it was putty, it was the most ham fisted putty job ever. Besides, there wasn't anything under the stuff (hairlines or contact marks) to hide. Back then, PCGS would take care of such issues without charge.

2620d2_zpsischh0vu.jpg

 

The reason I think it was putty was due to the fact the coin, as is, CLEARLY as a problem PCGS should have seen. However, putty shows itself many times long after the coin has been graded. Which something PCGS would have to fix after the fact....

 

jom

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

Posted
Posted

For us novices...

 

(1) How can you be sure the blemishes aren't on the glass casing ?

 

(2) Are the blemishes you are seeing the ones across her face to her hair......down her right leg and right part of her dress.....and the base of the flowers?

 

Anybody got any guesses as to how it got an MS-65 with all that ???? hm

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted

The reason I think it was putty was due to the fact the coin, as is, CLEARLY as a problem PCGS should have seen. However, putty shows itself many times long after the coin has been graded. Which something PCGS would have to fix after the fact....

 

jom

 

In fairness, PVC oil might turn hazy over time as well. I have seen this used on proof gold and when it aged, it had a translucent haze but didn't turn colors. It didn't quite look like this, but granted, I have only seen a couple of pieces that were treated in this manner (one of which was confirmed by CAC). That's why CaptHenway's post was of interest to me.

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jom

jom

Posted
Posted

The reason I think it was putty was due to the fact the coin, as is, CLEARLY as a problem PCGS should have seen. However, putty shows itself many times long after the coin has been graded. Which something PCGS would have to fix after the fact....

 

jom

 

In fairness, PVC oil might turn hazy over time as well. I have seen this used on proof gold and when it aged, it had a translucent haze but didn't turn colors. It didn't quite look like this, but granted, I have only seen a couple of pieces that were treated in this manner (one of which was confirmed by CAC). That's why CaptainHemingway's post was of interest to me.

 

I haven't any experience with PVC oil so that didn't occur to me....but putty was my first (and really only) thought. Actually is no clue what PVC oil is...I thought Capt' was referring to PVC from a previous plastic holder or some such.

 

It probably doesn't really matter exactly what is on the coin it needs to get returned to PCGS so they can take care of it.

 

jom

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

The problem is not the PVC but the softener(s) used. The most common are phthalate-group chemicals which make polyvinyl chloride plastic soft and flexible.

 

 

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CSdot

CSdot

Posted
  • Author
Posted
PVC is my guess. I had one with similar on it:

 

Many said putty, but I don't think so. If it was putty, it was the most ham fisted putty job ever. Besides, there wasn't anything under the stuff (hairlines or contact marks) to hide. Back then, PCGS would take care of such issues without charge.

2620d2_zpsischh0vu.jpg

 

What causes the striped effect on the reverse of these coins? I have noticed it, and have always thought the lighter stripes look like the original color of the coin, but that the deep orange hue on the rest of the coin was some form of toning. In fact, I find that deep orange hue to be a very attractive look on these coins.

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted

Orange-gold is normal for $20s in this era. The banding seems to be on a planchet and probably comes from final whitening.

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coinman_23885

coinman_23885

Posted
Posted
I haven't any experience with PVC oil so that didn't occur to me....but putty was my first (and really only) thought. Actually is no clue what PVC oil is...I thought Capt' was referring to PVC from a previous plastic holder or some such.

 

Coin doctors will harvest PVC and elute it in a solvent and then use it as a spread across the surface of a coin to help hide imperfections. I purchased a proof quarter eagle from an online auction house (there were no lot viewings - stupid idea I know) and the images had a lot to be desired. Unfortunately, I was hit by a piece with cloudy surfaces to my dismay. The coin was in a PCGS holder. I was curious what it was and submitted it to CAC, and JA relayed the PVC information to me. I am unsure if this is what CaptHenway was referencing or not.

 

I am still thinking putty like you, but the PVC oil suggestion was an interesting and plausible one.

 

It probably doesn't really matter exactly what is on the coin it needs to get returned to PCGS so they can take care of it.

 

jom

 

I agree.

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CaptHenway

CaptHenway

Posted
Posted

The reason I think it was putty was due to the fact the coin, as is, CLEARLY as a problem PCGS should have seen. However, putty shows itself many times long after the coin has been graded. Which something PCGS would have to fix after the fact....

 

jom

 

In fairness, PVC oil might turn hazy over time as well. I have seen this used on proof gold and when it aged, it had a translucent haze but didn't turn colors. It didn't quite look like this, but granted, I have only seen a couple of pieces that were treated in this manner (one of which was confirmed by CAC). That's why CaptainHemingway's post was of interest to me.

 

I haven't any experience with PVC oil so that didn't occur to me....but putty was my first (and really only) thought. Actually is no clue what PVC oil is...I thought Capt' was referring to PVC from a previous plastic holder or some such.

 

It probably doesn't really matter exactly what is on the coin it needs to get returned to PCGS so they can take care of it.

 

jom

 

Yes, I was referring to the oil from a PVC flip that broke down chemically.

 

TD

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