A Twist on the GTG - 1904 $20

[physics-fan3.14]

Alrighty - I'm going to put a little twist on the Guess the Grade today. We have here 2 Double Eagles, both of them from 1904. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is as follows (no cheating!):

 

1. Guess the Grades of both of these $20s.

 

2. Guess the price difference between the two.

 

3. Guess which one I bought.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

63 PL

64 PL

 

And I won't venture a guess as to the price difference. In addition to difference in the amount of contact marks, the depth of reflectivity is what will determine the price and I don't think the photos allow me to fully assess the mirrors.

[BillJones]

I would grade the first one MS-63 and the second one is an MS-64. According to the Gray Sheet that one point difference is worth about $50. The next step to MS-65 is only $290 more, but I'll bet a "real" MS-65 will cost you more.

[AHFreak]

my first thought is that the first one is a 63 PL, and the second one looks like it has better surface preservation than the first, possible MS65??? I am not up to speed on these double eagles, and have no idea the price/value for PL's... that said though, If the top one really is PL, I will guess u bought that one.. cause PL business strikes are awesome....

[physics-fan3.14]

Good guesses so far, everyone. Here are my pictures of the one I bought - do these change anyone's opinions? I'll post the answers tonight:

 

[johnny9434]

cool pic physics, i like the looks of that one and love the reverse on it. best wishes

[coinman_23885]

PLs are always difficult to grade from the images because the mirrors over emphasize contact marks. The first coin (and it looks like you bought this one) has stronger mirrors than the second, and it is possible that I am being overly conservative in my guess. Neverthelss, I'll stick with my original opinions.

[mikew148]

 

1st coin - MS63PL

2nd coin - MS64

 

I'd say the first coin is worth about $500 more with the PL designation even though the technical grade is one point lower.

 

 

[AHFreak]

Wondering if it is DMPL??? That would be awesome if so....

[tomsz]

First one seems to have more hairlines, but stronger strike overall (look at hair lower area): 64

Second one has less hairlines, but not as nice strike. Also, below "R" on reverse "Liberty" has some weak strike on hair: 63

[Coindude]

63 pl and 64*,you bought the pl and paid 1k more.

[coinman_23885]

First one seems to have more hairlines, but stronger strike overall (look at hair lower area): 64

Second one has less hairlines, but not as nice strike. Also, below "R" on reverse "Liberty" has some weak strike on hair: 63

 

The strike need not be hammered or even fully struck at that grade level.

[physics-fan3.14]

Good guesses everyone! I agree, the first sets of pictures don't really do a good job at helping you evaluate the coin - but that's Heritage for you. You have to understand what their pictures are telling you, and be able to extrapolate what the coin will look like in hand.

 

Believe it or not, both of these are graded the same. They are both NGC MS-64PL - the only difference being, the second one has a CAC sticker.

 

These both sold in the recent Houston Money Show Heritage auction, and they were sequential lots. Again, believe it or not, they sold for exactly the same amount. The price was a bit strong (certainly far more than your typical MS-64), but that is because of the unusual PL surfaces. When I was bidding, I honestly expected the CAC'd coin to sell for more (despite my opinion that the first coin was the superior one).

 

As shown by my set of pictures, I bought the first one. There are four reasons why: First, the strike is stronger (as many of you pointed out). Second, I like the color better (the first one has a bit deeper gold color, the second appears paler. This is more obvious in the other pictures on the Heritage website). Third, the mirrors are stronger on the first one (and, when buying a PL coin, that is very important). And finally, yes, the second one appears to have fewer marks on it overall, but the second also has a very unpleasant scuffiness at the bottom of the reverse that I didn't like.

 

I believe both of them are accurately graded as 64 (in hand, the one I bought is definitely a solid 64). But, the advantages of the non-CAC coin pushed me in its direction (including my anticipated lower price, which didn't actually happen). This is why learning to make decisions for yourself, and grade the coin for yourself, are so important - don't just rely on the CAC sticker!

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Congratulations on the new acquisition! It is a lovely coin. While I often see PLs in lower grades (usually below MS63), I don't often see these in mid uncirculated and higher grades with the PL designations.

[coinman_23885]

P.S. Will you be sending this one off to CAC?

[mikew148]

I thought the "scruffiness" on the second coin might have kept it from a PL designation.

 

Hard to tell from pics (PL/DPL especially)

 

In any event, Great Pick Up and nice "twist" (thumbs u

[copper toning]

Did you see the other coin in hand or have an auction rep?

[jpcienkus]

I refrain from posting as I already know the answer from a CT thread.

 

I do want to reiterate what a nice addition this is Jason. Very, very nice.

[copper toning]

Another question

 

Were these part of the same submission?

[physics-fan3.14]

Congratulations on the new acquisition! It is a lovely coin. While I often see PLs in lower grades (usually below MS63), I don't often see these in mid uncirculated and higher grades with the PL designations.

 

These are much harder to find in 64 or higher. They are relatively common in AU-58 through 62, and get slightly more challenging in 63. I am trying to maintain a 64 minimum grade for my set (when possible) - so I knew I had to wait for a 64.

 

P.S. Will you be sending this one off to CAC?

 

Why would I?

 

Did you see the other coin in hand or have an auction rep?

 

No, although I probably should have.

 

Another question

 

Were these part of the same submission?

 

No, the serial numbers are different. The other one (the CAC one) has been on Heritage several times over the past couple of years - a red flag that I look for. This tends to indicate to me a coin that nobody really wants.

[coinman_23885]

P.S. Will you be sending this one off to CAC?

 

Why would I?

 

I was kidding with you.

 

 

No, the serial numbers are different. The other one (the CAC one) has been on Heritage several times over the past couple of years - a red flag that I look for. This tends to indicate to me a coin that nobody really wants.

 

Based on the photographs, the second coin does not appear to have mirrors that are as strong. It might very well be that the other coin is only margnially PL and not worth the asking price that the label might otherwise suggest.