PCGS CrossOvers at NGC

[greysoldier]

I have had a recent experience at NGC with a PCGS crossover and would like to hear if anyone has experienced similar. I submitted a PCGS 63 1746 Great Britain coin for crossover to NGC. It came back as not a cross at any MS grade. Since I thought it a rather a nice looking example, I put caution (and money) to the wind, broke it out and resubmitted "raw". Guess what... yep, it came back as a 63. I have another PCGS crossover submitted and am waiting for the result. Should I simply crack out my PCGS coins and submit them raw in the first place or should I just...

 

[brg5658]

The short answer - yes, crackouts fair better than "crossovers" as long as you are okay with it coming back whatever they decide it is (i.e., as long as you know very well what you are doing).

 

Crackouts are a much riskier play for TPGs because they can't always see everything they need to see of a coin while it's still in the plastic. Also, in my opinion, TPGs have a hard time looking past the grade on the holder of a different branded slab when submitted for crossover.

 

Congrats on your coin grade. I'd love to see pictures.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Pcgs world coins are all over the place. They are highly inconsistent. I've had 66's cross at 64 ( which was the correct grade for the coin, and the price I paid), and I've had a 63 come back as a 65 (I only paid 63 money for it, but I bought it because I thought it was a 64). NGC is far more accurate and consistent with world coins.

 

All that being said, crossovers and crackouts are always going to be a risk.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Interesting story, but once I get a no grade or no crossover, I wouldn't be a sucker twice. The charge at PCGS for coins as common as Sovereigns is more than NGC and much more than ICG. For me it is about the coin and not about grading fetishes.

[nemo656]

I have mixed feelings about crossing over. I don't feel that NGC even evaluates the coins. The reason I say that is the results I personally experienced.

 

I submitted 6 PCGS Newfoundland coins last year and here is what I got back.

See if you can notice a pattern.

 

1929 1¢ - PCGS MS-65 -> NGC MS-64

1872 10¢ - PCGS XF-45 -> NGC XF-40

1873 20¢ - PCGS VF-30 -> NGC VF-20

1870 50¢ - PCGS VF-35 -> NGC VF-30

1876 50¢ - PCGS VF-35 -> NGC VF-30

1908 50¢ - PCGS XF-40 -> NGC VF-35

 

Anyone see a pattern here?

 

I learned a good lesson with that batch (Never again!). Also I had submitted a PCGS Newfoundland 1882-H $2 Gold in AU-58 with that batch and it did not cross. They claimed it was questionable color and would not grade which I found interesting because that particular PCGS coin I had just obtained from Heritage and the auction description listed it as gorgeous toning with hints of red with luster remaining. Go figure.

 

So I would be hesitant to submit any PCGS coins for cross.

 

So to answer your question has anyone else had this type of experience?

 

OH my don't get me started...

 

Have a great day

Jim

[greysoldier]

Yes, yes I have ~ the exact same pattern experienced with Great Britain PCGS crossovers at NGC. An almost guaranteed minimum one grade reduction. A very interesting "coincidence" to say the least. I did not realize that PCGS was so consistently inaccurate in their grading. I wonder if the same is true for US coins?

 

 

[brg5658]

I have mixed feelings about crossing over. I don't feel that NGC even evaluates the coins. The reason I say that is the results I personally experienced.

 

I submitted 6 PCGS Newfoundland coins last year and here is what I got back.

See if you can notice a pattern.

 

1929 1¢ - PCGS MS-65 -> NGC MS-64

1872 10¢ - PCGS XF-45 -> NGC XF-40

1873 20¢ - PCGS VF-30 -> NGC VF-20

1870 50¢ - PCGS VF-35 -> NGC VF-30

1876 50¢ - PCGS VF-35 -> NGC VF-30

1908 50¢ - PCGS XF-40 -> NGC VF-35

 

Anyone see a pattern here?

 

I learned a good lesson with that batch (Never again!). Also I had submitted a PCGS Newfoundland 1882-H $2 Gold in AU-58 with that batch and it did not cross. They claimed it was questionable color and would not grade which I found interesting because that particular PCGS coin I had just obtained from Heritage and the auction description listed it as gorgeous toning with hints of red with luster remaining. Go figure.

 

So I would be hesitant to submit any PCGS coins for cross.

 

So to answer your question has anyone else had this type of experience?

 

OH my don't get me started...

 

Have a great day

Jim

 

There is almost a strict pattern, except the downgrade from VF30 --> VF20 is a 2 grade level decrease, not the one level decrease of all of the others.

 

It's pretty well accepted that PCGS grades a good deal of world coins higher than NGC does, and, more bothersome, PCGS seems to be less consistent. So, if you had cracked those 6 coins and resubmitted them to PCGS you may have been even more disappointed than your crossover grades to NGC.

 

 

I buy coins that I like, at grades that are roughly correct on their respective slabs, and at reasonable prices. Buying non-USA coins for large price differences for a one level grade difference is risky and somewhat silly business. For the most part, world (non-USA) collectors still prefer their coins raw, and their grades as large categories like FDC, UNC, AUNC, EF, etc... The eye appeal and strike specifics of a non-USA coin are more important than what a TPG prints on a label.

 

Yes, these are generalizations, and they won't fit every case. There are always exceptions, and these are my experiences/opinions. Your mileage may vary.

 

 

[Polish Boy-migration]

Just been idly looking at the Forums which I rarely do but as I recently attained no 150 in the rankings, and am in the top 20 for World coins, and have been submitting coins for grading to NGC for over 7 years I feel I am quite well qualified to comment on the topic of PCGS crossovers.

 

This is a subject I will go into in much greater depth sometime soon, but suffice to say that I fully agree with one viewpoint that PCGS crossovers come out at 1 grade less in 80% of crossovers.

 

Submitting raw coins does not give the grader so much previous history to go by so the coin is more likely to be assessed on its individual merits as opposed to a confrontation between PCGS and NGC standards.

 

In view of each companies international advertising campaigns would not an impartial bystander be inclined to think that if each company is working according to the Sheldon Scale then crossovers might grade pretty equally on balance?

 

In my experience there appears to be a bias, but I will substantiate this with hard statistics when I get a little more free time.

[CorrodedSilver]

Hey Polish Boy, it has been 6+ years now, still don't have any free time?? I would be greatly interested in what you have to say on this topic.

 

So what people are saying is NGC, on average, grades world coins lower than PCGS. That can be significant for some coins, especially when it is in the higher grades. The other benefit is that most amatuer coin collectors (the majority of the buyers) don't know this, so a higher grade is more advantageous when selling coins (my understanding is that people believe NGC and PCGS are the top two grading companies and they both grade the same in most cases). Indirectly you are saying I should grade my coins at PCGS and not NGC (and this is an NGC Forum!). I like the brutal honesty you guys offer. I will be submitting 18 coins shortly (mostly German), guess I need to get a PCGS membership. Selling higher grade coins will cover the extra cost of the PCGS membership.

 

 

[World Colonial]

Most amateur coin buyers aren't buying a coin like the 1746 British which is the subject of the original post, certainly not buyers in the United States who are about the only ones who care if the coin is graded at all. Depending upon your definition of "amateur buyer", its likely most of them don't even know many of these coins exist. They are buying mostly common US coins or inexpensive world coins. Don't know how long you have been collecting but disproportionately, collectors in Britain (or Germany) where most of the buyers of these coins are from don't like TPG. They prefer their coins ungraded. You can verify this for yourself by looking at listed coins in foreign auctions if you have not already done so.

 

Your premise is that inexperienced collectors primarily buy the grade which I think is a lot more true of US coins generically than world coinage. I wouldn't count on getting a better price on your coins simply because the coin has a higher number on the holder.

 

I don't believe it is consistently true with US coins either. If your reasoning was accurate, then US collectors would prefer NGC over PCGS for the series where the perception exists that PCGS is stricter. I don't deny that this doesn't ever happen, but from my time here and reviewing auction records, buyers collectively usually adjust for it.

[wdrob]

I submitted a PCGS 63 1746 Great Britain coin for crossover to NGC. It came back as not a cross at any MS grade. Since I thought it a rather a nice looking example, I put caution (and money) to the wind, broke it out and resubmitted "raw". Guess what... yep, it came back as a 63.

 

No disrespect intended to any, but I find this lack of comprehension of the TPG system amongst a very large collection of highly intellectual participants on this and other boards astonishing,

 

Without soliciting a possibly well deserved personal characterization of a 'tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist I would like to point out that there are volumes of internal Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) that guide the actions of the TPG that you or I will possibly never know the full extent.

 

It is widely conceded by essentially all that I have interacted with on this forum or in other venues, that the TPG system, while being created with admirable original intentions have inevitably evolved, and most (in my limited experience) have conceded that the system is not in foul able and even concessions from well respected TPG's have reinforced this assertion.

 

So my question to all would be; assuming that one is amongst the higher intellectuals that I mentioned prior, and I feel nearly all that frequent this board fall into that category without great effort, why the surprise when coins are not graded at what you feel is appropriate, or fail to cross from one TPG (whose initial judgement is not in foul able) to another TPG with the same shortcomings.

 

In my opinion on TPG; if you are satisfied resubmitting (at a cost per submission) to eventually possibly garnering the grade, either very close or meeting your expectations, then you really have no grounds to complain about a system that you are continuing to enable.

 

You understand the possibilities of erroneous grading opinions yet continue to submit to the same system. The system is the result of a business plan, internal memos and directives, and finally the inconsistent nature of the human inability to perform at a flawless professional pursuit

 

Bottom kine - this is the way the TPG system submission process goes, plain and simple. For those that find it unacceptable to pay money for a half job, your only choice to make is if the certification of your coins is a necessity that out weighs your principles then you will have to learn to overlook the flaws involved with the process. Many already have come to that reality.

 

Good luck on future submissions if you choose to continue down the same path that has clearly been laid out for you.