General Opinion - NGC Overgraded by a Full Point... ?

[Nutmeg Coin]

In their benefit PCGS does excellent work, and both companies are pretty conservative in many issues of coins. It is the relatively small %s of mistakes that too often get highlighted. Plus we should come up with a different metaphor than the "drinking the koolade"; it stems from that grisly episode in American history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid

[brg5658]

"...I do see PCGS picking up money off the table that NGC has left sitting there..."

 

Are you suggesting a difference between business profits and business ethics? Perish the MBA thought!

 

 

NGC should start a new slogan -- "NGC the ethical choice among TPGs"

 

That would result in lawsuits and even if NGC "won" legally, considering the attorney's fee, no one would come come out ahead (except perhaps the lawyers).

 

 

[brg5658]

In their benefit PCGS does excellent work, and both companies are pretty conservative in many issues of coins. It is the relatively small %s of mistakes that too often get highlighted. Plus we should come up with a different metaphor than the "drinking the koolade"; it stems from that grisly episode in American history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid

 

If the shoe fits...

[jom]

...I can absolutely say for certain that how each company deals with/treats customers/people is DIRECTLY RELATED to what type of person each respective company has "at the wheel".... It is a direct reflection... Now, anyone with any business-sense knows that will usually be the case, I just found it amazing how much that applied here, with companies operating at the level they operate at, with how many levels of management there are in between the top and the bottom (Pres/CEO down to the secretary fielding incoming C.S phone calls). I just find it amazing at how much trickles right down to the very bottom in both cases.

 

That is without question absolutely true...especially in this case.

 

jom

[jpcienkus]

There is a sizable percentage of coins where grading standards overlap, probably 80%. Most of us do not deal in $2000 plus coins very often. All you have to do is scrutinize auction and CDN pricing to see what percentage of coins fit into the nether reaches of value, as you go through CDN quarterly I to quarterly III due out soon, and the coin issues listed in the monthly and weekly guide. To do a comprehensive analysis you would have to examine each sector of the market and then establish % differentials. NGC has spoken on the record on these issues: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259

 

Yes a very good read and you can tell he is an intelligent guy that is well spoken and thinks before he talks...

 

Now -- does anyone have a link to an interview that David Hall has done ? I would like to compare and contrast.

 

Yeah...uh...let's just say you won't come away with a similar impression.

 

jom

 

You aren't kidding..... last year in June, I attended the PCGS grading course at Long Beach. part of the "class" was an appearance from David Hall.. He came in and started talking, and I was completely STUNNED. His ego almost knocked me over. I still cannot believe how "out of touch with reality" he is.

 

picture a room with about 30 numismatist who are just starting out, or at least far from experts at best.... He told this room of people that if they are serious about learning how to grade, that they should go buy a bag/1000 silver dollars! (one thousand silver dollars- this was June 2013), as if that $25-$30K wasn't unrealistic enough, the point of doing so was to go though each one, grade it (or at least try, by guessing the grade as best you can) and then.... ARE YOU READY??? Send them to PCGS and have them graded..... "SEE HOW CLOSE YOU WERE".... LMAO....... Nothing about all of the amazing resources out there... no Summer Seminar or inexpensive books.... Just get ahold of $50K-$60K.... send over $30K of it to PCGS, and "attempt" to learn not by expert guidance, but by trial and error at the expense of whatever it would cost to grade 1000 silver dollars......... He told the room that is how "he would do it" if he were starting out today, he then went to say that those of us who were really serious about coins, would be willing do whatever it takes to figure it out...

 

I could go on and on.

 

Here is what I find the most amazing, about 1.5-2 years ago I started sending coins for encapsulation... At that point I was open to using either our hosts here or the guys ATS as I had really nothing that would sway me one direction or the other. Looking back on my first few contacts with both companies, and after reading that interview with Mark Salzberg, and the other things I have read and heard being said about him, compared to initial contact with ATS and my amazing "30 minute" Q&A with David Hall... I can absolutely say for certain that how each company deals with/treats customers/people is DIRECTLY RELATED to what type of person each respective company has "at the wheel".... It is a direct reflection... Now, anyone with any business-sense knows that will usually be the case, I just found it amazing how much that applied here, with companies operating at the level they operate at, with how many levels of management there are in between the top and the bottom (Pres/CEO down to the secretary fielding incoming C.S phone calls). I just find it amazing at how much trickles right down to the very bottom in both cases.

 

Koodos to you NGC! Koodos to you.

 

PS- no Kool-Aid here folks. Just water for me.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. Very eye opening.

 

Agree 100% about company/corporate culture. I can relay a personal experience about corporate culture, but I won't bore you with the details. Here's the cliff notes: I was working for a $5B division of a company. Our division had 30K employees. We were a conservative engineering company, if you know what I mean. Anyway, one day, the executives came up with the bright idea that they wanted to change our corporate culture, so they wrote a memo. I was incredulous. Really, a memo! Everyone is supposed to just get in line because of a company wide memo? Boy, were they clueless.

 

Being on top in a field is a precarious position unless you have the right leadership in place. Go back 20-30 years. Who were the industry leaders? How many of those industry titans from years past are still in that same position? The list of those who fell down is long and distinguished. Nothing lasts forever.

 

The last 2 paragraphs were not a rebuttal to anything you posted. Just me being on my soap box about business/leadership/ and companies getting out of touch with their market.

 

Thanks again for posting your experience. I wonder how many others in the room felt the same way you did. The look on my face might have been this:

[TonerGuy]

He told this room of people that if they are serious about learning how to grade, that they should go buy a bag/1000 silver dollars! (one thousand silver dollars- this was June 2013), as if that $25-$30K wasn't unrealistic enough, the point of doing so was to go though each one, grade it (or at least try, by guessing the grade as best you can) and then.... ARE YOU READY??? Send them to PCGS and have them graded..... "SEE HOW CLOSE YOU WERE".... LMAO....... Nothing about all of the amazing resources out there... no Summer Seminar or inexpensive books.... Just get ahold of $50K-$60K.... send over $30K of it to PCGS, and "attempt" to learn not by expert guidance, but by trial and error at the expense of whatever it would cost to grade 1000 silver dollars.........

 

Well if nothing else, he's consistent. That was the same impression I got from him 12 yrs ago.

 

However, I cannot really disagree with his concept of learning by doing.

 

Though I would suggest that instead of a bag of 1000 Morgans or Peace $ that the newbie start with bag of $1000 Ikes (which I can provide for a small mark up ) and go through them and grade them all by groups.

 

Keep all of the VF20, XF40, AU50... MS62, MS63 ect coins together.

 

Then take 1 coin representative from each grading group and send it in to a TPG to see how close they are in grading. So in the end you might have 10-15 coins to submit in total. I would actually recommend doing this with ANACS when they have their 10 Dollars for $10 special. So total grading fees might be $150.

 

For a total investment of $1500 you can get the same experience. And I would keep regrading and resubmitting the other coins from the grading groups until I hit an 85% or more success rate on my grading estimates.

 

Of course I would also recommend the grading classes and just looking at as many coins as possible in auctions and on the show floor.

 

The best way I have learned to not only grade but to be able to spot AT from MA toned coins is to submit coins to all 3 services (NGC, PCGS and ANACs) to understand what each service will grade and what they wont grade.

 

It does take time and money... there's no way around that.

[Raisethis2]

If I bought an original bag of 1000 Morgans, graded them and then shipped them off to be professionally graded for comparison, fully 1/3 would come back cleaned.

 

Now what do I do?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, that was a pretty "out of touch" suggestion.

[Nutmeg Coin]

With the exception of occasional specials or the pre-screen option for dealers who want generic Morgans graded that meet specific criteria (MS63,64,65) at discount pricing, getting 1000 Morgans graded will set you back about $20,000! The only ones making money in that equation will be PCGS and CLCT. You might learn something the hard way, and by the way who are you supposed to be getting these 1000 Morgans from? BU rolls from a show dealer? Random purchases at shops and shows? Do buyers have sufficient bargaining and grading skills to avoid all the traps and pitfalls of doing this?

 

How about a really innovative idea. Instead of online price and grade guides why don't they put out several grading tutorials. It shouldn't be that hard to do several a day with 30 plus graders who may want to instruct others in the skills they already possess. And evolve the video tutorials based on feedback they are getting. Personally if I were involved in the management of a company the last thing I would want to do is have a bunch of disgruntled customers who are getting back a sizable percentage of details or genuine holder coins. Eventually scanning devices will develop to do the pre-screening of potentially problem coins, maybe clubs could share them with all their members if there are not sharp former graders or significant submitters who can help collectors avoid some of the pitfalls of buying problem material.

[coinman_23885]

Though I would suggest that instead of a bag of 1000 Morgans or Peace $ that the newbie start with bag of $1000 Ikes (which I can provide for a small mark up ) and go through them and grade them all by groups.

 

Keep all of the VF20, XF40, AU50... MS62, MS63 ect coins together.

 

Then take 1 coin representative from each grading group and send it in to a TPG to see how close they are in grading. So in the end you might have 10-15 coins to submit in total. I would actually recommend doing this with ANACS when they have their 10 Dollars for $10 special. So total grading fees might be $150.

 

For a total investment of $1500 you can get the same experience.

 

Or one could take that money, visit several regional shows or perhaps a national show or two and view thousands of coins. It would be even better to take advantage of Heritage and Stacks-Bowers lot viewing while there. Why waste money by certifying bullion or pocket change?

[jom]

If I bought an original bag of 1000 Morgans, graded them and then shipped them off to be professionally graded for comparison, fully 1/3 would come back cleaned.

 

Now what do I do?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, that was a pretty "out of touch" suggestion.

 

While "hyperbolic" the suggestion is actually spot on. You learn by looking at as many coins as possible...and then...do it all over again. Rinse and repeat.

 

jom

[coinman_23885]

If I bought an original bag of 1000 Morgans, graded them and then shipped them off to be professionally graded for comparison, fully 1/3 would come back cleaned.

 

Now what do I do?

 

 

, that was a pretty "out of touch" suggestion.

 

While "hyperbolic" the suggestion is actually spot on. You learn by looking at as many coins as possible...and then...do it all over again. Rinse and repeat.

 

jom

 

 

But why spend so much money to do it inefficiently?

[jom]

If I bought an original bag of 1000 Morgans, graded them and then shipped them off to be professionally graded for comparison, fully 1/3 would come back cleaned.

 

Now what do I do?

 

 

, that was a pretty "out of touch" suggestion.

 

While "hyperbolic" the suggestion is actually spot on. You learn by looking at as many coins as possible...and then...do it all over again. Rinse and repeat.

 

jom

 

 

But why spend so much money to do it inefficiently?

 

He was using hyperbole...it's obviously stupid to do that when all you have to do is go to an auction preview and do the same thing. I was just defending his underlying point NOT the way he presents it.

 

jom

[Hard Times]

Though I would suggest that instead of a bag of 1000 Morgans or Peace $ that the newbie start with bag of $1000 Ikes (which I can provide for a small mark up ) and go through them and grade them all by groups.

 

Keep all of the VF20, XF40, AU50... MS62, MS63 ect coins together.

 

Then take 1 coin representative from each grading group and send it in to a TPG to see how close they are in grading. So in the end you might have 10-15 coins to submit in total. I would actually recommend doing this with ANACS when they have their 10 Dollars for $10 special. So total grading fees might be $150.

 

For a total investment of $1500 you can get the same experience.

 

Or one could take that money, visit several regional shows or perhaps a national show or two and view thousands of coins. It would be even better to take advantage of Heritage and Stacks-Bowers lot viewing while there. Why waste money by certifying bullion or pocket change?

 

+1

 

Yup I agree, best way to learn how to grade is go to major coin shows, 1000s of graded coins to look at. And if you have to travel, you get a nice trip to boot, and get to hang out with a bunch of coinees talking coins. That to me is a great way to spend $500-1000. You might even meet someone like QD Bowers or even Mark Feld.

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

OK, I'm the poster from ATS and no I'm not a "Kool-Aid" drinker at all. Have plenty of coins in non-PCGS slabs and some of my best Morgan toners are in NGC and ANACS slabs and I don't plan to cross or crack them out.

 

I was overhearing the dealer comments while quietly going through various trays, slab boxes and 2x2's looking for stuff to add to my collection. I did not pose any question to any dealer about slabs nor add anything to those conversations; love how one poster already assumed I baited a question to 'elicit the kool-aid response' I was looking for. Jeez! Also, how am I supposed to know which dealers are the 'PCGS peddlers' before I sit at their table?

 

To brg - why is it hogwash? I heard what I heard. If what they are saying is hogwash, then yes I can live with that. Of course NGC is still here and I hope they are around for a long time. And what do you mean by 'expected by that poster ATS'? I usally just post my purchases ATS and don't make stuff up. If I had passed thru those dealer tables 15 minutes sooner or later, I probably would have missed those 'anti NGC' conversations altogether. I didn't even say they were right or wrong, that is what they were saying and probably believed too. They are in it to make a buck.

 

Like or not, what coinman_23885 says in his post is pretty much true. I deal a lot in capped bust halves (in VF to AU-58) and see the spread in the selling prices for that series, especially in the AU-58 grade. It is what it is, and that's why people do crackouts and crossovers in a series like this.

 

Give me a frickn' break and go back the lala land........... If everyone knew how grade, the PCGS marketing gimic would never work - WHY did the Newman collection go to NGC? WHY does the Smithsonian use NGC? Well gosh, could be they are very good at what they do, and therez lots of money to be made (and lost) in the Newman collection, and I am sure Mr. Newman et al. did not take that decision on which grading company to use lightly, and oh BTW, about 80% of them thar NGC Newman coins CACed FWIW. That speaks volumes on the quality of NGC grading. So if the dumb- dealers caint figure it out, too bad for them - y'allz can go on belivin' the kool-aid mantra and miss yore 'tang.

 

Best, HT

 

Your rude reply indicates that either you didn't read or comprehend his post. You sound as if you were replying to something other than what was actually written.

 

He reported what he heard. He didn't say that he agreed with it. He owns and doesn't try to cross his NGC coins. Edited to add: "Have plenty of coins in non-PCGS slabs and some of my best Morgan toners are in NGC and ANACS slabs and I don't plan to cross or crack them out".

 

And, deserved or not and like it or not, there often is a spread in selling prices between NGC and PCGS coins. There was nothing "lala land" about his post.

 

Mark, thanks for noticing my 'rude' reply, I aims to please. (thumbs u

 

Best, HT

[jpcienkus]

Though I would suggest that instead of a bag of 1000 Morgans or Peace $ that the newbie start with bag of $1000 Ikes (which I can provide for a small mark up ) and go through them and grade them all by groups.

 

Keep all of the VF20, XF40, AU50... MS62, MS63 ect coins together.

 

Then take 1 coin representative from each grading group and send it in to a TPG to see how close they are in grading. So in the end you might have 10-15 coins to submit in total. I would actually recommend doing this with ANACS when they have their 10 Dollars for $10 special. So total grading fees might be $150.

 

For a total investment of $1500 you can get the same experience.

 

Or one could take that money, visit several regional shows or perhaps a national show or two and view thousands of coins. It would be even better to take advantage of Heritage and Stacks-Bowers lot viewing while there. Why waste money by certifying bullion or pocket change?

 

I like that idea!

 

[TonerGuy]

Though I would suggest that instead of a bag of 1000 Morgans or Peace $ that the newbie start with bag of $1000 Ikes (which I can provide for a small mark up ) and go through them and grade them all by groups.

 

Keep all of the VF20, XF40, AU50... MS62, MS63 ect coins together.

 

Then take 1 coin representative from each grading group and send it in to a TPG to see how close they are in grading. So in the end you might have 10-15 coins to submit in total. I would actually recommend doing this with ANACS when they have their 10 Dollars for $10 special. So total grading fees might be $150.

 

For a total investment of $1500 you can get the same experience.

 

Or one could take that money, visit several regional shows or perhaps a national show or two and view thousands of coins. It would be even better to take advantage of Heritage and Stacks-Bowers lot viewing while there. Why waste money by certifying bullion or pocket change?

 

Did you not read all of my post ? I said to do that as well. Even look at coins on EBay if you cant go to shows regularly. Study as much as possible ---

 

However, there really is no substitute for actually grading coins and risking your own money and doing it over and over again until you get it down.

 

I use to play QB. I went to a lot of different football camps. I took lessons from former college and pro players. I watched a lot of game film. I watched a lot of film on techniques to improve accuracy and touch. I practiced throwing footballs into garbage cans and through rings.

 

All of that practice, watching, talking and learning only came together when I was on the field in a real live game with full pads. There are only certain things you can learn from a book or from someone else. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to really tighten your game skills.

 

While I rarely agree with anything Hall says I do agree with his belief that you have to put up or shut up. Rarely have I had coins bagged for AT or comeback further than 1 point off what I graded them. I didnt learn to do that by just looking.

 

I rather spend $1500 on some useless coins than lose $1500 on an important coin.

 

And remember you can always spend the $1000 so you are really only out $500 or so in grading fees. That is a small price to pay for an education. Unless you live next to a major show its going to cost that much to fly, stay and eat.

[Prethen]

This is a very interesting thread. At least for now, it's cool of NGC to allow it to stay alive.

 

Here's my opinion for what it's worth:

 

I really like NGC for a lot of reasons. I've had very nice coins in different holders, including NGC. In the past, I've not had a major issue selling NGC coins. NGC offers decent competition for other major player in the arena, PCGS.

 

However, I actually have to back up the OP on something. I have heard the same type of stuff from multiple players (collectors and dealers) in the coin game in regards to NGC plastic. It breaks my heart when I hear this, because what I'm really hearing from those people is that there's no other valid grading business other than PCGS. Moreover, it makes me angry.

 

This perception is due to a wide number of factors, including the reality/perception of the marketplace in various areas. Different areas of the country experience different attitudes. In Colorado, I think it's largely indifferent and you'll see a lot of ANACS slabs here (where you used to see a lot of ICG but no more).

 

One of the factors includes the registry sets that seem to drive a lot of the fanaticism over PCGS slabs, their grades, crazy prices, etc.

 

Another factor that seems to self-perpetuate this whole PCGS "good" vs. NGC "bad" perception is the break-out crowd. Good stuff in NGC holders get broken out and put into PCGS holders for registry sets or for whatever reason the owner wants (maybe because they believe they'll get a better price...which can be a reality). I'm not saying that all the good stuff is broken out of NGC holders, but this type of trend could hurt the NGC brand and may actually have, since what's left in holders is average or so-so stuff which hurts prices.

 

I'm really pulling for NGC. I want to see serious competition for the "Kool-Aid" crowd. Competition in any arena should be good.

[Hard Times]

Hi Pretheren,

I will repeat what I said earlier in that on a very broad grading level, PCGS and NGC are very hard to tell apart. This is really just a marketing ploy. Sure there might be subtle differences in grading different series, but on a whole, both pretty much grade consistently and accurately within the market grading expectations. Testimony to this is the rate of coins in both holders that bean at CAC, in my experience, each CAC in about the same rate. Further, to the kool-aid drinkers that believe coins in PCGS holders to be superior in some way, why was the Newman collection graded by NGC and why, do tell, did around 80% of these get approved by CAC? That speaks volumes and is hard to come back saying PCGS is superior as graders. In fact, word on the street is that only around 30-40% of the coins submitted to CAC get the bean, and, assuming that folks try to send in their best, no question about the accuracy of grading NGC did with the Newman coins. Then how could they be inferior in grading? It is simply a ploy by a faction of numismatists to market PCGS coins as superior, that does not make it true.

There is also the argument that the 'good' coins get crossed to PCGS from NGC, if this is so and statistically significant, I don't see why my PCGS and NGC coins had equal success with CAC. Cain't figure that one out.

 

Best, HT

[AHFreak]

I think it is a lot less to do with the actual "coin", and more to do with the plastic. Take any coin where NGC and PCGS both have the same grade as the finest known (i.e. any common date modern Lincoln cent where the highest grade is MS68RED at both 3PG's), and go check out the ended listings/prices realized archives.... the PCGS coin will be significantly higher than the NGC equally graded coin majority of the time, if not every time. To me, I am all but convinced that this has virtually nothing to do with the coin inside the plastic.. and that it is rather simple actually. I believe it starts with the registry sets, collectors are the ones who are driving this price madness higher and higher and their motivation is moving up the ranks with their pcgs registry sets. This starts happening starts happening slowly early on, but more and more as time has went by after the "registry phenominom" as it progresses more and more, collectors/buyers/dealers notice, "hey, it seems like PCGS has a premium above NGC"-at some point, it would be hard not see the difference if you are paying any sort of attention to the market. As this happens more and more, it starts to create that "perception"... its only a matter of time before its a widely held belief but the worst part about it IMO is that it "self propels" as it gains momentum, that in and of itself creates more momentum. Almost any top pop PCGS coin commands retarded money at this point, if for not other reason, just because two or more guys "need" it for their registry set while the same coin in NGC is widely ignored, at best sold for a more realistic market price-(usually)". Then, collectors see PCGS prices commanding higher premiums, so they ask for PCGS graded coins regardless if its top pop or not, dealers start hearing collectors prefer one over the other, and therefore they start developing a preference for one over the other because that is how business works in any industry, you get what your clients/customers want. In the meantime, when the newbie collector walks into a random coin-dealers shop, or stops at his table, and sees that most if not all of his inventory is PCGS plastic, it likely contributes to this perception about this plastic versus that plastic and which one is "better".....

 

I think this argument/debate/discussion/whatever it is, has merit and is very valid. It seem to mes like most people perceive it a bit differently, but the fact is that there is a difference between the two when it comes to final listings and prices realizes.

 

I personally think that it has almost nothing to do with the actual coin majority of the time, or who grades better than who, and everything to do with the bidders who want that coin, and the reasons why they want it. Both companies grade soooo many coins everyday, and I feel like they both do an absolutely amazing job with their accuracy, and I believe anyone who has been in the coin biz for any amount of time will say that there are overgraded and undergraded coins in any and all plastic, regardless of any other details. That is just part of the game, it would be unrealistic to expect that a coin wont slip through from time to time, or an important detail being missed or something.

 

 

That said, I see competition in this arena as being extremely critical to the hobby overall, I couldn't even imagine one grading company or the other being the only one that was credible.... (shivers). Considering the type of company that NGC is and has been, I for one am confident that they are aware of this growing "perception" and are very pro-active in creating and pursuing solutions... I believe they are here to stay. (that's just my opinion based on my little perspective).

 

 

 

[braddick]

If you trust your dealer and trust your grading service of choice, 'learning to grade' is moot.

[Hard Times]

AH some nice comments in there. I think you have an excellent point on the registry and how it played a role in PCGS holdered coins prices. Some others have said it but your thorough assessment brings it home that it is clearly a factor.

 

Braddick, that would be 'blind trust' and for many reasons, I think that learning to grade or assess a grade on a holder is still important. I trust my dealers fully, the two I buy from the most. But even after they have done their job of selecting outstanding examples, I still need to do my own assessment and don't always agree with them. So learning how to grade is not really moot even if one trusts their dealers, at least for me.

 

Best, HT

[braddick]

I think the "learn how to grade" mantra is overrated and overused.

 

It is possible to absolutely enjoy the heck out of this hobby, collecting what it is you strive complete all without knowing "how to grade".

 

Much past the basic fundamentals, it is somewhat a crapshoot anyway. IMO, much too much time is spent on "learning how to grade" rather than other more enjoyable aspects of this hobby.

 

Again, get a dealer you trust (someone like Mark) and a grading service you believe in and get out there and put together a set of coins you (and your heirs) will be proud of.

 

Less "learn how to grade" and more sharing the beauty and joy of this fine hobby.

[rrantique]

I think the "learn how to grade" mantra is overrated and overused.

 

It is possible to absolutely enjoy the heck out of this hobby, collecting what it is you strive complete all without knowing "how to grade".

 

Much past the basic fundamentals, it is somewhat a crapshoot anyway. IMO, much too much time is spent on "learning how to grade" rather than other more enjoyable aspects of this hobby.

 

Again, get a dealer you trust (someone like Mark) and a grading service you believe in and get out there and put together a set of coins you (and your heirs) will be proud of.

 

Less "learn how to grade" and more sharing the beauty and joy of this fine hobby.

 

Where is that I agree with you emoticon

[coinsbygary]

IMO, much too much time is spent on "learning how to grade" rather than other more enjoyable aspects of this hobby.

 

IMO, learning how to grade IS an enjoyable aspect of the hobby. Nevertheless, people are drawn to coin collecting for a variety of reasons. That said, TPG has taken much of the guesswork out of grading.

 

Still, you have to be comfortable with the coin in the plastic. If you think the coin in the plastic is overgraded you will not pay MS-65 money for what you think is an MS-64 coin. In the end, if you pay MS-65 money for what maybe an MS-64 coin, it will hurt you when you decide to sell the coin.

Gary

[TonerGuy]

I think the "learn how to grade" mantra is overrated and overused.

 

It is possible to absolutely enjoy the heck out of this hobby, collecting what it is you strive complete all without knowing "how to grade".

 

Much past the basic fundamentals, it is somewhat a crapshoot anyway. IMO, much too much time is spent on "learning how to grade" rather than other more enjoyable aspects of this hobby.

 

Again, get a dealer you trust (someone like Mark) and a grading service you believe in and get out there and put together a set of coins you (and your heirs) will be proud of.

 

Less "learn how to grade" and more sharing the beauty and joy of this fine hobby.

 

This is another reason why I like toners over blast white coins. I am not so hung up on grade as I am color. I would much rather have eye appealing toned coins in MS60-63 grades than dazzling dripping with luster coins at the MS65-67 level.

 

I think it would be far more stressful in making sure I chose the "right" MS67 and that it was all there for the grade then choosing a baggy MS62 but with really pretty colors. I didnt need to take a course or read a book to determine what I liked in toning - eye of the beholder.

 

Then again the guy that spends the time learning to grade and buying the right MS67 will financially do very well later on and more than likely much better than me. Thank God I dont do this for the money.

[MJ]

My take

 

NGC and PCGS grade more similar the past few years then at any other time since inception. The problem lies that NGC in the opinion of many graded looser for an extended period of time in between. Hence they have more "over graded" coins out there. Or maybe it's just that PCGS has more under graded coins. Same difference. Remember PCGS and NGC do not grade to the exact same standards anyways and I think that's where a lot of folks get hung up at. Certainly the majority of coins would grade the same between services but……….

 

As for the full point thing, I don't buy into it as fact although in one of my series it happens a lot. ( Walkers at gem plus). Then again since the services have different standards to begin with so it is what it is. Certainly if you look at the pops and prices by grades in 66 and up you would see noticeable differences. Over the years I've learned to look at Wakers through both NGC and PGGS eyes.

 

At the end of the day if I see an aesthetically pleasing coin regardless of the holder or the grade I try to find a way to buy it. I think grading is over rated to begin with but one day I will probably sell a lot of coins so I have to be cognizant of the market.

 

Mark Salzberg is one heck of a guy and NGC is fortunate to have him.

 

MJ

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

There is no substitute for the sheer numbers of coins the grading services see every day to maintain their sharp edge and clarity on where any given coin stands in the marketplace. If you do not keep up a skill-based activity you lose the level of competence that professionals who do practice it every day have.

 

PCGS permits crossover submissions from other grading services than NGC, so they have a chance to get coins into their holders and have for quite some time, than NGC which only allows PCGS coins for crossovers, all others have to be submitted as "raw". PCGS seems to be loosening their standards on the under $3000 coins at times from what I have seen. Where NGC has maintained and even strengthened it's strictness on what they will put in their numerical grade holders. Any real problem they see, and the coin comes back in the purple holder. But they seem to be easier to get AU58s on coins that get a number, sometimes where the coins would get a 55 or so with PCGS. Plus the PCGS holder is more aesthetic while the NGC holder has a mechanical look. There are way too many areas in this market to make blanket generalities. People like what they like.

 

 

[Hard Times]

My take

 

NGC and PCGS grade more similar the past few years then at any other time since inception. The problem lies that NGC in the opinion of many graded looser for an extended period of time in between. Hence they have more "over graded" coins out there. Or maybe it's just that PCGS has more under graded coins. Same difference. Remember PCGS and NGC do not grade to the exact same standards anyways and I think that's where a lot of folks get hung up at. Certainly the majority of coins would grade the same between services but……….

 

As for the full point thing, I don't buy into it as fact although in one of my series it happens a lot. ( Walkers at gem plus). Then again since the services have different standards to begin with so it is what it is. Certainly if you look at the pops and prices by grades in 66 and up you would see noticeable differences. Over the years I've learned to look at Wakers through both NGC and PGGS eyes.

 

At the end of the day if I see an aesthetically pleasing coin regardless of the holder or the grade I try to find a way to buy it. I think grading is over rated to begin with but one day I will probably sell a lot of coins so I have to be cognizant of the market.

 

Mark Salzberg is one heck of a guy and NGC is fortunate to have him.

 

MJ

 

 

MJ,

That is an excellent take and many of us will benefit from your insight.

 

Best, HT

[$ilverHawk]

My take

 

NGC and PCGS grade more similar the past few years then at any other time since inception. The problem lies that NGC in the opinion of many graded looser for an extended period of time in between. Hence they have more "over graded" coins out there. Or maybe it's just that PCGS has more under graded coins. Same difference. Remember PCGS and NGC do not grade to the exact same standards anyways and I think that's where a lot of folks get hung up at. Certainly the majority of coins would grade the same between services but……….

 

As for the full point thing, I don't buy into it as fact although in one of my series it happens a lot. ( Walkers at gem plus). Then again since the services have different standards to begin with so it is what it is. Certainly if you look at the pops and prices by grades in 66 and up you would see noticeable differences. Over the years I've learned to look at Wakers through both NGC and PGGS eyes.

 

At the end of the day if I see an aesthetically pleasing coin regardless of the holder or the grade I try to find a way to buy it. I think grading is over rated to begin with but one day I will probably sell a lot of coins so I have to be cognizant of the market.

 

Mark Salzberg is one heck of a guy and NGC is fortunate to have him.

 

MJ

 

 

Agree with your insights and I am getting very tired of the "kool aid" comments. That's another story. A coin stands on it's merits regardless of the holder. I collect Walkers and I judge the coin without any deference to the holder and holder grade.

 

Mark Salzberg is a strong presence in our current market place. Yes, I'm glad that he is with NGC. Full confesssion, I'm a NGC "fan".

 

Carl

[jom]

I think the "learn how to grade" mantra is overrated and overused.

 

It is possible to absolutely enjoy the heck out of this hobby, collecting what it is you strive complete all without knowing "how to grade".

 

Much past the basic fundamentals, it is somewhat a crapshoot anyway. IMO, much too much time is spent on "learning how to grade" rather than other more enjoyable aspects of this hobby.

 

Again, get a dealer you trust (someone like Mark) and a grading service you believe in and get out there and put together a set of coins you (and your heirs) will be proud of.

 

Less "learn how to grade" and more sharing the beauty and joy of this fine hobby.

 

I think your animosity toward the "learn how to grade" mantra is mis-guided. I do not think people spend too much time learning how to grade at the expense of enjoying the hobby. I think people are spending too much time worrying about labels and registry nuances. Worrying about what holder your coin is in is NOT the same thing as "learning how to grade". IMO, far too little time is spent learning to grade from what I can tell as everyone seems to be dependent on the TPGs.

 

Just my take...

 

jom