General Opinion - NGC Overgraded by a Full Point... ?

[TonerGuy]

From a Long Beach Show report ATS ...

 

5) Saw many common PCGS coins priced crazy too. A 1942-D PCGS MS-66 RD cent for $90? I asked what his buy price was and got an answer that he's just trying to get rid of them and that was the 'retail' price and not my price. I walked away laughing from that table.

6) More than a few dealers were slagging NGC U.S. coins. Some were saying they just weren't bothering with NGC plastic any more and others were pretty much saying a 66=65 in a PCGS slab, 64=63 and so on. Some were also saying NGC plastic wasn't saleable in most series. I don't know if it was just me, but this kind of talk seemed more prevalent than before. Anyone else notice this too?

 

I spent two full days at the show and talked with many dealers and overhead quite a few conversations...

 

I never heard one dealer say that NGC plastic isnt selling nor did I hear any dealer tell me that any NGC coin I looked at was a full point over graded and he would sell it to me for less money just to get rid of it.

 

Did anyone at LB hear this sentiment from any dealer ?

 

Also, I think (5) is related to (6). If NGC is now "unsaleable" I would expect PCGS coins to shoot up in value.

 

Does anyone know if PCGS coins sold for a full point higher than NGC plastic at the Heritage or Goldberg Auctions ?

 

Or ultimately is this just more PCGS "Kool Aid" posting ATS ?

[brg5658]

From a Long Beach Show report ATS ...

 

5) Saw many common PCGS coins priced crazy too. A 1942-D PCGS MS-66 RD cent for $90? I asked what his buy price was and got an answer that he's just trying to get rid of them and that was the 'retail' price and not my price. I walked away laughing from that table.

6) More than a few dealers were slagging NGC U.S. coins. Some were saying they just weren't bothering with NGC plastic any more and others were pretty much saying a 66=65 in a PCGS slab, 64=63 and so on. Some were also saying NGC plastic wasn't saleable in most series. I don't know if it was just me, but this kind of talk seemed more prevalent than before. Anyone else notice this too?

 

I spent two full days at the show and talked with many dealers and overhead quite a few conversations...

 

I never heard one dealer say that NGC plastic isnt selling nor did I hear any dealer tell me that any NGC coin I looked at was a full point over graded and he would sell it to me for less money just to get rid of it.

 

Did anyone at LB hear this sentiment from any dealer ?

 

Also, I think (5) is related to (6). If NGC is now "unsaleable" I would expect PCGS coins to shoot up in value.

 

Does anyone know if PCGS coins sold for a full point higher than NGC plastic at the Heritage or Goldberg Auctions ?

 

Or ultimately is this just more PCGS "Kool Aid" posting ATS ?

 

Complete hogwash. And to be expected from that particular poster ATS. People have been saying what he posted ATS for years...NGC is still here. I think a good deal of what you hear at shows has to do with whose tables you go to. Of course you're going to hear anti-NGC sentiment from PCGS-peddling dealers.

 

With regard to point 5), pricing a coin crazy has nothing to do with reality. This is like complaining about BIN prices on eBay. Some dealers are just out of touch...let me know when those coins actually sell at those prices, then we'll discuss.

 

 

[BROADSTRUCK]

I've sold quite a few previously NGC graded coins that now reside in PCGS holders 1 full point higher. Here's an example as when I switched to AU58FH SLQ's I sold all my MS63-64 examples to my member friend Elbesaar over a period of time. He needed this 19-S in PCGS plastic for his registry set ATS and it crossed/upgraded.

 

 

 

 

 

[cpm9ball]

Consider the source and ignore it.

 

Chris

[MarkFeld]

From a Long Beach Show report ATS ...

 

5) Saw many common PCGS coins priced crazy too. A 1942-D PCGS MS-66 RD cent for $90? I asked what his buy price was and got an answer that he's just trying to get rid of them and that was the 'retail' price and not my price. I walked away laughing from that table.

6) More than a few dealers were slagging NGC U.S. coins. Some were saying they just weren't bothering with NGC plastic any more and others were pretty much saying a 66=65 in a PCGS slab, 64=63 and so on. Some were also saying NGC plastic wasn't saleable in most series. I don't know if it was just me, but this kind of talk seemed more prevalent than before. Anyone else notice this too?

 

I spent two full days at the show and talked with many dealers and overhead quite a few conversations...

 

I never heard one dealer say that NGC plastic isnt selling nor did I hear any dealer tell me that any NGC coin I looked at was a full point over graded and he would sell it to me for less money just to get rid of it.

 

Did anyone at LB hear this sentiment from any dealer ?

 

Also, I think (5) is related to (6). If NGC is now "unsaleable" I would expect PCGS coins to shoot up in value.

 

Does anyone know if PCGS coins sold for a full point higher than NGC plastic at the Heritage or Goldberg Auctions ?

 

Or ultimately is this just more PCGS "Kool Aid" posting ATS ?

 

I believe that you can easily answer your own questons.

[Mr. Smith Guesser]

Or ultimately is this just more PCGS "Kool Aid" posting

I was just thinking the LAST job I'd want in the late '70s early '80s was the PR director for Kool-Aid. Could you imagine what that poor guy's job was like following Jonestown? I can hear him now, "Why the !@#$ didn't they just use Tang?!" Whoever that guy is, I tip my hat to him.

[TonerGuy]

I was just thinking the LAST job I'd want in the late '70s early '80s was the PR director for Kool-Aid. Could you imagine what that poor guy's job was like following Jonestown? I can hear him now,"Why the !@#$ didn't they just use Tang?!" Whoever that guy is, I tip my hat to him.

 

That has to win funny post of the day ! Thank you for the laugh.

 

I believe that you can easily answer your own questons.

 

Actually I am serious about this one. I submitted a few coins to PCGS at LB and while at their table I watched dealers lining up to get in on the cross-over special. I saw one dealer I know try and cross 2 NGC MS68 Morgan Dollars to PCGS.

 

I sat there and watched several dealers walk up and ask about their walk-thru cross overs and whether they would be finished soon so they could sell the coin(s) at the show.

 

Im not saying this gives credence to the statements above but I did see evidence of several dealers playing the cross-over game.

 

As an aside, I really wish NGC would offer something like this. I hate the PCGS clear holders for toned coins. The NGC white holders are much more aesthetically pleasing for toned coins. And there are numerous toned coins in PCGS slabs that I am positive would star at NGC and command a larger premium than if they resided in PCGS plastic. NGC is missing the boat by not following suit with this idea.

[coinman_23885]

I don't buy into the mantra that NGC coins will always downgrade or that PCGS is necessarily superior. With that said, in many series, generic NGC coins appear far less liquid in the current market in many series than their PCGS counterparts. Many classic commemoratives, certain gold issues, and Capped Bust Half a Dollars come to mind (although the latter is more about price realized than liquidity). To this end, I think it is a good time to potentially play the crack out/crossover game.

[RWB]

The margin of error for commercial grading is greater than the supposed "1 point" difference, so the original comment is meaningless.

[Coinbuf]

I was at the show and did not hear any dealers bagging on NGC and/or make this claim. What I do think happened is that the poster ats phrased his questions to dealers in such a way as to elicit a desired kool-aid response. However it is impossible to ignore or refute that PCGS has done a better job of marketing itself to dealers and collectors and as such has become the market leader. Note that I did not say they are a better company, simply perceived that way by the majority and thus in many cases coins in PCGS plastic do sell for more.

[ElmerFusterpuck]

OK, I'm the poster from ATS and no I'm not a "Kool-Aid" drinker at all. Have plenty of coins in non-PCGS slabs and some of my best Morgan toners are in NGC and ANACS slabs and I don't plan to cross or crack them out.

 

I was overhearing the dealer comments while quietly going through various trays, slab boxes and 2x2's looking for stuff to add to my collection. I did not pose any question to any dealer about slabs nor add anything to those conversations; love how one poster already assumed I baited a question to 'elicit the kool-aid response' I was looking for. Jeez! Also, how am I supposed to know which dealers are the 'PCGS peddlers' before I sit at their table?

 

To brg - why is it hogwash? I heard what I heard. If what they are saying is hogwash, then yes I can live with that. Of course NGC is still here and I hope they are around for a long time. And what do you mean by 'expected by that poster ATS'? I usally just post my purchases ATS and don't make stuff up. If I had passed thru those dealer tables 15 minutes sooner or later, I probably would have missed those 'anti NGC' conversations altogether. I didn't even say they were right or wrong, that is what they were saying and probably believed too. They are in it to make a buck.

 

Like or not, what coinman_23885 says in his post is pretty much true. I deal a lot in capped bust halves (in VF to AU-58) and see the spread in the selling prices for that series, especially in the AU-58 grade. It is what it is, and that's why people do crackouts and crossovers in a series like this.

[MarkFeld]

OK, I'm the poster from ATS and no I'm not a "Kool-Aid" drinker at all. Have plenty of coins in non-PCGS slabs and some of my best Morgan toners are in NGC and ANACS slabs and I don't plan to cross or crack them out.

 

I was overhearing the dealer comments while quietly going through various trays, slab boxes and 2x2's looking for stuff to add to my collection. I did not pose any question to any dealer about slabs nor add anything to those conversations; love how one poster already assumed I baited a question to 'elicit the kool-aid response' I was looking for. Jeez! Also, how am I supposed to know which dealers are the 'PCGS peddlers' before I sit at their table?

 

To brg - why is it hogwash? I heard what I heard. If what they are saying is hogwash, then yes I can live with that. Of course NGC is still here and I hope they are around for a long time. And what do you mean by 'expected by that poster ATS'? I usally just post my purchases ATS and don't make stuff up. If I had passed thru those dealer tables 15 minutes sooner or later, I probably would have missed those 'anti NGC' conversations altogether. I didn't even say they were right or wrong, that is what they were saying and probably believed too. They are in it to make a buck.

 

Like or not, what coinman_23885 says in his post is pretty much true. I deal a lot in capped bust halves (in VF to AU-58) and see the spread in the selling prices for that series, especially in the AU-58 grade. It is what it is, and that's why people do crackouts and crossovers in a series like this.

 

Thanks for the well balanced and gentlemanly reply.

[Raisethis2]

I think it's logical for some "over here" to defend NGC when it's cast in a negative light "over there" when the evidence is dubious at best. My observations these past few years are that Dealers prefer to purchase coins that are slabbed in PCGS plastic but, not all coins are.

 

I can certainly agree that it's complete hogwash that systematically, NGC coins are overgraded (which was the thrust of the post), the facts from where I sit suggest that's not the case and certainly not a full grade. Similarly, Dealer pricing has never reflected any differences between grading companies opinions, auctions however will at times reward a coin in PCGS plastic over a similar coin in NGC clothing.

 

Dealers trade between one another with literature intended for Dealers that breaks out pricing differences between the same coin in PCGS vs NGC plastic however, that's a reflection of sight unseen coins on a wholesale level that I think reflects some favoritism BY DEALERS toward PCGS vs NGC plastic. That's a reflection of Dealer/Collector preference toward the plastic, not the coin inside.

 

I think the reality is that PCGS might be just one tiny hairline tighter in some series, but that's all. NGC's grading accuracy is normally within one to two points of PCGS's for all coins ever graded in the publication they hold so dear.

 

I'd trust that as fact vs some random unidentified Dealers ramblings since the track record goes back almost to the beginning.

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I think it's logical for some "over here" to defend NGC when it's cast in a negative light "over there" when the evidence is dubious at best. My observations these past few years are that Dealers prefer to purchase coins that are slabbed in PCGS plastic but, not all coins are.

 

I can certainly agree that it's complete hogwash that systematically, NGC coins are overgraded (which was the thrust of the post), the facts from where I sit suggest that's not the case and certainly not a full grade. Similarly, Dealer pricing has never reflected any differences between grading companies opinions, auctions however will at times reward a coin in PCGS plastic over a similar coin in NGC clothing.

 

Dealers trade between one another with literature intended for Dealers that breaks out pricing differences between the same coin in PCGS vs NGC plastic however, that's a reflection of sight unseen coins on a wholesale level that I think reflects some favoritism BY DEALERS toward PCGS vs NGC plastic. That's a reflection of Dealer/Collector preference toward the plastic, not the coin inside.

 

I think the reality is that PCGS might be just one tiny hairline tighter in some series, but that's all. NGC's grading accuracy is normally within one to two points of PCGS's for all coins ever graded in the publication they hold so dear.

 

I'd trust that as fact vs some random unidentified Dealers ramblings since the track record goes back almost to the beginning.

 

 

 

 

I must take issue with this part of your post:

 

"Similarly, Dealer pricing has never reflected any differences between grading companies opinions, auctions however will at times reward a coin in PCGS plastic over a similar coin in NGC clothing."

 

Dealer pricing often (if not usually) reflects differences between the two companies. And auction prices often do so, as well. I say this as a non koolaid drinker and a supporter of the "buy the coin" not the holder, concept. But at the same time, I am realistic.

 

[TonerGuy]

 

Dealer pricing often (if not usually) reflects differences between the two companies. And auction prices often do so, as well. I say this as a non koolaid drinker and a supporter of the "buy the coin" not the holder, concept. But at the same time, I am realistic.

 

So if I understand your statement, you believe/know that coins in PCGS plastic bring more at auction and should because they are graded slightly more accurately ?

 

In advance, please forgive me for not answering this myself or misinterpreting your comments.

[TonerGuy]

OK, I'm the poster from ATS and no I'm not a "Kool-Aid" drinker at all. Have plenty of coins in non-PCGS slabs and some of my best Morgan toners are in NGC and ANACS slabs and I don't plan to cross or crack them out.

 

If you believe what you posted why wouldnt you cross, and if necessary, crack out and submit the Morgan toners to PCGS ?

 

 

[MarkFeld]

 

Dealer pricing often (if not usually) reflects differences between the two companies. And auction prices often do so, as well. I say this as a non koolaid drinker and a supporter of the "buy the coin" not the holder, concept. But at the same time, I am realistic.

 

So if I understand your statement, you believe/know that coins in PCGS plastic bring more at auction and should because they are graded slightly more accurately ?

 

In advance, please forgive me for not answering this myself or misinterpreting your comments.

 

I believe that PCGS graded coins tend to bring more at auction. Not always or close to always, but often.

 

Please note, I didn't say or even imply that they necessarily should bring more. In some cases, I think it's justified and in many others, not.

 

There are a number of factors responsible for the differences in prices. Among them are: Differences in grading standards, perceived differences in grading standards, crossover of many better NGC coins into PCGS holders, a bias among many buyers in favor of PCGS (or PCGS only) coins and the registry set phenomenon.

[mdwoods]

Both services have nice coins in their holders. As is always a good idea buy the coin, not the holder.

[jom]

Perception is reality. The problem as I see it is as follows:

 

1) Registry set people need to have coin in PCGS holder OR

1a) Someone can't sell a coin in an NGC so they cross over to PCGS

 

2) What could be left over in NGC slabs are possibly the over-graded coins or properly graded coins that aren't eye appealing.

 

3) The above then adds fuel to the fire to the perception that PCGS is the "better" service.

 

4) The cycle continues...rinse and repeat.

 

If we were all able to view the data on what coins got crossed over and at what grades were given the REALITY might very well be drastically different than what the market perceives. See the above SLQ as an example.

 

jom

[brg5658]

I was told not too long ago by Mr. "MJ" that perception is reality. I guess if you believe that (which I don't -- cf. Plato's Allegory of the Cave"), then continue on your merry way. I will continue to buy nice coins in NGC holders, regardless of what gossip nonsense I overhear from the "dealers" at coin shows.

 

As a collector I'm happy to pay less for NGC graded nice coins -- regardless of the perception of their quality. If your goal is to flip, sell, or otherwise capitalize on the marketing of PCGS vs. NGC, then that's your prerogative. My goal is to collect nice coins, regardless of their plastic clothing.

 

As has been said before, but I'll state it again -- what's the big deal about selling a PCGS coin for more when you paid more for it in the first place? The coin is the coin -- all of the rest (brand of tomb, stickers, labels, etc.) are distractions.

 

Cheers.

[Matt_dac]

I'm another collector who is happy to continue to pay less for NGC slabbed coins. I would not exclude a PCGS coin from consideration, but when I look at the prices and find what I think is a similarly nice coin for a few dollars less in an NGC holder I will go with it every time.

[Raisethis2]

Let me further clarify my statement:

 

Dealer pricing, applied to the general public in my experience doesn't include a discount because a coin happens to be in an NGC slab. As I stated, the Certified Coin Dealers Newsletter (Blue Sheet) which is a Dealer to Dealer sight unseen tool shows significant differences. Now maybe Collectors who buy coins at very high price points get some consideration when buying a coin in an NGC holder, but at my collector level differences are all but invisible.

 

Further, If it were true that NGC overgrades by a full point there would be people all across America cracking everything they could get their hands on out of PCGS plastic to get the improved grade from our host. Many issues show multiples of value for just one grade higher, who wouldn't take the chance?

 

That's just crazy talk I know but the underlying theory is just as nuts.

[AHFreak]

Let me further clarify my statement:

 

Dealer pricing, applied to the general public in my experience doesn't include a discount because a coin happens to be in an NGC slab. As I stated, the Certified Coin Dealers Newsletter (Blue Sheet) which is a Dealer to Dealer sight unseen tool shows significant differences. Now maybe Collectors who buy coins at very high price points get some consideration when buying a coin in an NGC holder, but at my collector level differences are all but invisible.

 

Further, If it were true that NGC overgrades by a full point there would be people all across America cracking everything they could get their hands on out of PCGS plastic to get the improved grade from our host. Many issues show multiples of value for just one grade higher, who wouldn't take the chance?

 

That's just crazy talk I know but the underlying theory is just as nuts.

 

 

YEP.

[coinman_23885]

Further, If it were true that NGC overgrades by a full point there would be people all across America cracking everything they could get their hands on out of PCGS plastic to get the improved grade from our host. Many issues show multiples of value for just one grade higher, who wouldn't take the chance?

 

For some coins a PCGS coin one grade lower is worth more than the next grade up at NGC. For instance, I own a top pop cameo proof Liberty Head Nickel where this is the case. The coin is 1/0 at PCGS and 3/0 at NGC. It happens. The Registry phenomenon can create super high prices for some PCGS coins.

 

I still don't buy into the automatic upgrade at NGC mantra.

[orifdoc]

A little thought experiment??

 

For many issues, coins in one holder unquestionably sell for more than coins in another holder. Are there actual differences in grading? Let's explore it for the gem 1924-S Peace dollar, a condition rarity in the Peace dollar series.

 

From the last 20 sales at Heritage, there were 13 PCGS dollars and 7 NGC dollars. The average price of the PCGS coin was $7059 while the NGC coins brought $4812 for a difference of $2250.

 

Assume for a second that the coins are of identical quality (graded to the same standards). A crack-out artist could pay the 17.5% auction commission ($842) to acquire an NGC coin and pay a grading fee ($55) for the chance to get the coin into PCGS plastic. Let's say the crack-out guy is willing to submit the coin 5 times to get it to come back MS65 (not an unreasonable game in this era). 5x$55 = $275. Total investment = $1,117 leaving $1,113 profit, on average. If the coins really are graded correctly to start with, and the standards really are the same, a guy could do quite well for himself exploiting the difference in pricing between the services. Of course there is always a risk the coin will never go back into an MS65 holder, leaving him stuck with a $1,500 coin.

 

If the greater market thinks coins are graded to the same standard, huge price differences won't last long...... Crack-out guys will be willing to pay more and more to acquire said coins, up to the point that it isn't worth the risk to try to get them into the "right" plastic. If the greater market thinks the coins are graded to a different standard, there is little incentive to take the risk...... the odds of crossing into the "right" plastic don't favor playing the game and large price differences persist.

 

There are some series with enormous profit motive to move coins to another holder. I would argue, than all things considered, the market has decided that (on average) some series of coins are graded more tightly in one TPG holder vs. another. This "leveling-out" happens independent of marketing and hype, based just on economics.

 

There are more than a few people making a fortune playing this game and not all of them are excellent graders. A person with a math/statistics background could do quite well.......

[TonerGuy]

A little thought experiment??

 

For many issues, coins in one holder unquestionably sell for more than coins in another holder. Are there actual differences in grading? Let's explore it for the gem 1924-S Peace dollar, a condition rarity in the Peace dollar series.

 

From the last 20 sales at Heritage, there were 13 PCGS dollars and 7 NGC dollars. The average price of the PCGS coin was $7059 while the NGC coins brought $4812 for a difference of $2250.

 

Assume for a second that the coins are of identical quality (graded to the same standards). A crack-out artist could pay the 17.5% auction commission ($842) to acquire an NGC coin and pay a grading fee ($55) for the chance to get the coin into PCGS plastic. Let's say the crack-out guy is willing to submit the coin 5 times to get it to come back MS65 (not an unreasonable game in this era). 5x$55 = $275. Total investment = $1,117 leaving $1,113 profit, on average. If the coins really are graded correctly to start with, and the standards really are the same, a guy could do quite well for himself exploiting the difference in pricing between the services. Of course there is always a risk the coin will never go back into an MS65 holder, leaving him stuck with a $1,500 coin.

 

If the greater market thinks coins are graded to the same standard, huge price differences won't last long...... Crack-out guys will be willing to pay more and more to acquire said coins, up to the point that it isn't worth the risk to try to get them into the "right" plastic. If the greater market thinks the coins are graded to a different standard, there is little incentive to take the risk...... the odds of crossing into the "right" plastic don't favor playing the game and large price differences persist.

 

There are some series with enormous profit motive to move coins to another holder. I would argue, than all things considered, the market has decided that (on average) some series of coins are graded more tightly in one TPG holder vs. another. This "leveling-out" happens independent of marketing and hype, based just on economics.

 

There are more than a few people making a fortune playing this game and not all of them are excellent graders. A person with a math/statistics background could do quite well.......

 

Great example, only because I like Peace $....

 

However, if we arent talking MS65 1924-S Peace $ is the difference still there ?

 

Seeing how most collectors cant afford a MS65 1924-S Peace $ from either grading service and many buy a nice MS64 example instead - is there still a 30% price difference in MS64 between NGC and PCGS ?

 

What does the auction results show for MS64 coins ? - Im going to guess no.

 

So while the market may perceive PCGS grading that much better than NGC ... at least in this series (Peace $) Im going to say its probably restricted to the upper echelon coins.

 

And I think that PCGS has done a great job at catering to the moneyed investor collector but I find NGC much more friendly to the true collector.

 

Overall if you.re collecting coins in the rarefied air $5000+ coins I think the differences are more apparently and more reasonable. I just dont think that applies across the board to every coin and every series.

 

 

 

[Hard Times]

I don't buy into the mantra that NGC coins will always downgrade or that PCGS is necessarily superior. With that said, in many series, generic NGC coins appear far less liquid in the current market in many series than their PCGS counterparts. Many classic commemoratives, certain gold issues, and Capped Bust Half a Dollars come to mind (although the latter is more about price realized than liquidity). To this end, I think it is a good time to potentially play the crack out/crossover game.

 

Yup, go ahead and play the kool-aid marketing game.......

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

I was at the show and did not hear any dealers bagging on NGC and/or make this claim. What I do think happened is that the poster ats phrased his questions to dealers in such a way as to elicit a desired kool-aid response. However it is impossible to ignore or refute that PCGS has done a better job of marketing itself to dealers and collectors and as such has become the market leader. Note that I did not say they are a better company, simply perceived that way by the majority and thus in many cases coins in PCGS plastic do sell for more.

 

Question, it is reallly PCGS that has done a better job or is it the kool-aiders ats that have done a better job? What if folks around here started preaching an NGC only, PCGS inferior, yada yada yada mantra - would the market tide reverse?

 

Best, HT

[coinman_23885]

I don't buy into the mantra that NGC coins will always downgrade or that PCGS is necessarily superior. With that said, in many series, generic NGC coins appear far less liquid in the current market in many series than their PCGS counterparts. Many classic commemoratives, certain gold issues, and Capped Bust Half a Dollars come to mind (although the latter is more about price realized than liquidity). To this end, I think it is a good time to potentially play the crack out/crossover game.

 

Yup, go ahead and play the kool-aid marketing game.......

 

Best, HT

 

Whenever it comes to improving my bottom line when selling pieces, I will. I think one is smart to consider crossing over whenever it makes a substantial difference. To me it is like freshly painting a home before selling it - cosmetic differences can make a difference and it is wise to explore all ethical options available in maximizing the return on the investment.

[Hard Times]

OK, I'm the poster from ATS and no I'm not a "Kool-Aid" drinker at all. Have plenty of coins in non-PCGS slabs and some of my best Morgan toners are in NGC and ANACS slabs and I don't plan to cross or crack them out.

 

I was overhearing the dealer comments while quietly going through various trays, slab boxes and 2x2's looking for stuff to add to my collection. I did not pose any question to any dealer about slabs nor add anything to those conversations; love how one poster already assumed I baited a question to 'elicit the kool-aid response' I was looking for. Jeez! Also, how am I supposed to know which dealers are the 'PCGS peddlers' before I sit at their table?

 

To brg - why is it hogwash? I heard what I heard. If what they are saying is hogwash, then yes I can live with that. Of course NGC is still here and I hope they are around for a long time. And what do you mean by 'expected by that poster ATS'? I usally just post my purchases ATS and don't make stuff up. If I had passed thru those dealer tables 15 minutes sooner or later, I probably would have missed those 'anti NGC' conversations altogether. I didn't even say they were right or wrong, that is what they were saying and probably believed too. They are in it to make a buck.

 

Like or not, what coinman_23885 says in his post is pretty much true. I deal a lot in capped bust halves (in VF to AU-58) and see the spread in the selling prices for that series, especially in the AU-58 grade. It is what it is, and that's why people do crackouts and crossovers in a series like this.

 

Give me a frickn' break and go back the lala land........... If everyone knew how grade, the PCGS marketing gimic would never work - WHY did the Newman collection go to NGC? WHY does the Smithsonian use NGC? Well gosh, could be they are very good at what they do, and therez lots of money to be made (and lost) in the Newman collection, and I am sure Mr. Newman et al. did not take that decision on which grading company to use lightly, and oh BTW, about 80% of them thar NGC Newman coins CACed FWIW. That speaks volumes on the quality of NGC grading. So if the dumb- dealers caint figure it out, too bad for them - y'allz can go on belivin' the kool-aid mantra and miss yore 'tang.

 

Best, HT