General Opinion - NGC Overgraded by a Full Point... ?

[brg5658]

I don't buy into the mantra that NGC coins will always downgrade or that PCGS is necessarily superior. With that said, in many series, generic NGC coins appear far less liquid in the current market in many series than their PCGS counterparts. Many classic commemoratives, certain gold issues, and Capped Bust Half a Dollars come to mind (although the latter is more about price realized than liquidity). To this end, I think it is a good time to potentially play the crack out/crossover game.

 

Yup, go ahead and play the kool-aid marketing game.......

 

Best, HT

 

Whenever it comes to improving my bottom line when selling pieces, I will. I think one is smart to consider crossing over whenever it makes a substantial difference. To me it is like freshly painting a home before selling it - cosmetic differences can make a difference and it is wise to explore all ethical options available in maximizing the return on the investment.

 

"...far less liquid in the current market..."

 

That sounds an awful lot like dealer-speak to me...nothing wrong with that if your main goal is to milk a coin for the $$. I don't know what the market will look like in 30+ years when I plan to sell most of my coins, so I'll just leave them where they are for now...

 

 

[Hard Times]

I think it's logical for some "over here" to defend NGC when it's cast in a negative light "over there" when the evidence is dubious at best. My observations these past few years are that Dealers prefer to purchase coins that are slabbed in PCGS plastic but, not all coins are.

 

I can certainly agree that it's complete hogwash that systematically, NGC coins are overgraded (which was the thrust of the post), the facts from where I sit suggest that's not the case and certainly not a full grade. Similarly, Dealer pricing has never reflected any differences between grading companies opinions, auctions however will at times reward a coin in PCGS plastic over a similar coin in NGC clothing.

 

Dealers trade between one another with literature intended for Dealers that breaks out pricing differences between the same coin in PCGS vs NGC plastic however, that's a reflection of sight unseen coins on a wholesale level that I think reflects some favoritism BY DEALERS toward PCGS vs NGC plastic. That's a reflection of Dealer/Collector preference toward the plastic, not the coin inside.

 

I think the reality is that PCGS might be just one tiny hairline tighter in some series, but that's all. NGC's grading accuracy is normally within one to two points of PCGS's for all coins ever graded in the publication they hold so dear.

 

I'd trust that as fact vs some random unidentified Dealers ramblings since the track record goes back almost to the beginning.

 

 

 

 

I must take issue with this part of your post:

 

"Similarly, Dealer pricing has never reflected any differences between grading companies opinions, auctions however will at times reward a coin in PCGS plastic over a similar coin in NGC clothing."

 

Dealer pricing often (if not usually) reflects differences between the two companies. And auction prices often do so, as well. I say this as a non koolaid drinker and a supporter of the "buy the coin" not the holder, concept. But at the same time, I am realistic.

 

Mark,

I am not convinced your case would be correct if everyone knew how to grade as well as the PCGS and NGC graders. I think the very best out there probably would argue that the two companies are largely indistinguishable in their ability to grade coins. I could be wrong, but my personal experience suggests this to be the case with submissions to CAC. JMHO.

 

Best, HT

[Hard Times]

I don't buy into the mantra that NGC coins will always downgrade or that PCGS is necessarily superior. With that said, in many series, generic NGC coins appear far less liquid in the current market in many series than their PCGS counterparts. Many classic commemoratives, certain gold issues, and Capped Bust Half a Dollars come to mind (although the latter is more about price realized than liquidity). To this end, I think it is a good time to potentially play the crack out/crossover game.

 

Yup, go ahead and play the kool-aid marketing game.......

 

Best, HT

 

Whenever it comes to improving my bottom line when selling pieces, I will. I think one is smart to consider crossing over whenever it makes a substantial difference. To me it is like freshly painting a home before selling it - cosmetic differences can make a difference and it is wise to explore all ethical options available in maximizing the return on the investment.

 

I don't disagree with what you are saying, all I am saying is that it is marketing, not grading that is driving this.

 

Best, HT

[coinman_23885]

I don't buy into the mantra that NGC coins will always downgrade or that PCGS is necessarily superior. With that said, in many series, generic NGC coins appear far less liquid in the current market in many series than their PCGS counterparts. Many classic commemoratives, certain gold issues, and Capped Bust Half a Dollars come to mind (although the latter is more about price realized than liquidity). To this end, I think it is a good time to potentially play the crack out/crossover game.

 

Yup, go ahead and play the kool-aid marketing game.......

 

Best, HT

 

Whenever it comes to improving my bottom line when selling pieces, I will. I think one is smart to consider crossing over whenever it makes a substantial difference. To me it is like freshly painting a home before selling it - cosmetic differences can make a difference and it is wise to explore all ethical options available in maximizing the return on the investment.

 

I don't disagree with what you are saying, all I am saying is that it is marketing, not grading that is driving this.

 

Best, HT

 

And I don't disagree with you that marketing is a major factor and PCGS has done an incredible job of marketing its product. It was an early promoter of market makers to boost the market for its product whereas NGC did not encourage such networks. This created an early advantage for their product and a loyal base. PCGS was also the first to push the registry concept which has also helped its product.

[ElmerFusterpuck]

OK, I'm the poster from ATS and no I'm not a "Kool-Aid" drinker at all. Have plenty of coins in non-PCGS slabs and some of my best Morgan toners are in NGC and ANACS slabs and I don't plan to cross or crack them out.

 

I was overhearing the dealer comments while quietly going through various trays, slab boxes and 2x2's looking for stuff to add to my collection. I did not pose any question to any dealer about slabs nor add anything to those conversations; love how one poster already assumed I baited a question to 'elicit the kool-aid response' I was looking for. Jeez! Also, how am I supposed to know which dealers are the 'PCGS peddlers' before I sit at their table?

 

To brg - why is it hogwash? I heard what I heard. If what they are saying is hogwash, then yes I can live with that. Of course NGC is still here and I hope they are around for a long time. And what do you mean by 'expected by that poster ATS'? I usally just post my purchases ATS and don't make stuff up. If I had passed thru those dealer tables 15 minutes sooner or later, I probably would have missed those 'anti NGC' conversations altogether. I didn't even say they were right or wrong, that is what they were saying and probably believed too. They are in it to make a buck.

 

Like or not, what coinman_23885 says in his post is pretty much true. I deal a lot in capped bust halves (in VF to AU-58) and see the spread in the selling prices for that series, especially in the AU-58 grade. It is what it is, and that's why people do crackouts and crossovers in a series like this.

 

Give me a frickn' break and go back the lala land........... If everyone knew how grade, the PCGS marketing gimic would never work - WHY did the Newman collection go to NGC? WHY does the Smithsonian use NGC? Well gosh, could be they are very good at what they do, and therez lots of money to be made (and lost) in the Newman collection, and I am sure Mr. Newman et al. did not take that decision on which grading company to use lightly, and oh BTW, about 80% of them thar NGC Newman coins CACed FWIW. That speaks volumes on the quality of NGC grading. So if the dumb- dealers caint figure it out, too bad for them - y'allz can go on belivin' the kool-aid mantra and miss yore 'tang.

 

Best, HT

 

I really don't really get your rant at all. Lala land? If that's directed at me, please explain. Nowhere in my posts do I personally slag or degrade NGC at all or blindly sip or believe the PCGS 'kool-aid', like so many of you like to call it. Yes Newman used NGC along with the Smithsonian, and the Saddle Risge owners went with PCGS. There is plenty of room for both. OK, and here's an NGC coin I don't plan on cracking out, even though I think this one deserves a star.

 

[orifdoc]

A little thought experiment??

 

For many issues, coins in one holder unquestionably sell for more than coins in another holder. Are there actual differences in grading? Let's explore it for the gem 1924-S Peace dollar, a condition rarity in the Peace dollar series.

 

From the last 20 sales at Heritage, there were 13 PCGS dollars and 7 NGC dollars. The average price of the PCGS coin was $7059 while the NGC coins brought $4812 for a difference of $2250.

 

Assume for a second that the coins are of identical quality (graded to the same standards). A crack-out artist could pay the 17.5% auction commission ($842) to acquire an NGC coin and pay a grading fee ($55) for the chance to get the coin into PCGS plastic. Let's say the crack-out guy is willing to submit the coin 5 times to get it to come back MS65 (not an unreasonable game in this era). 5x$55 = $275. Total investment = $1,117 leaving $1,113 profit, on average. If the coins really are graded correctly to start with, and the standards really are the same, a guy could do quite well for himself exploiting the difference in pricing between the services. Of course there is always a risk the coin will never go back into an MS65 holder, leaving him stuck with a $1,500 coin.

 

If the greater market thinks coins are graded to the same standard, huge price differences won't last long...... Crack-out guys will be willing to pay more and more to acquire said coins, up to the point that it isn't worth the risk to try to get them into the "right" plastic. If the greater market thinks the coins are graded to a different standard, there is little incentive to take the risk...... the odds of crossing into the "right" plastic don't favor playing the game and large price differences persist.

 

There are some series with enormous profit motive to move coins to another holder. I would argue, than all things considered, the market has decided that (on average) some series of coins are graded more tightly in one TPG holder vs. another. This "leveling-out" happens independent of marketing and hype, based just on economics.

 

There are more than a few people making a fortune playing this game and not all of them are excellent graders. A person with a math/statistics background could do quite well.......

 

Great example, only because I like Peace $....

 

However, if we arent talking MS65 1924-S Peace $ is the difference still there ?

 

Seeing how most collectors cant afford a MS65 1924-S Peace $ from either grading service and many buy a nice MS64 example instead - is there still a 30% price difference in MS64 between NGC and PCGS ?

 

What does the auction results show for MS64 coins ? - Im going to guess no.

 

So while the market may perceive PCGS grading that much better than NGC ... at least in this series (Peace $) Im going to say its probably restricted to the upper echelon coins.

 

And I think that PCGS has done a great job at catering to the moneyed investor collector but I find NGC much more friendly to the true collector.

 

Overall if you.re collecting coins in the rarefied air $5000+ coins I think the differences are more apparently and more reasonable. I just dont think that applies across the board to every coin and every series.

 

 

 

In MS64 (ignoring 64+ coins), over the same period, the PCGS coins averaged $1260 while NGC averaged $1152 for a difference of only about 10%.

 

For another comparison, for 1922-P $1 coins in MS67 (of which there aren't that many sales), the average PCGS Heritage sale is for $12,300 and the average NGC price has been $3,700. Obviously, a large body of bidders feels rather strongly that there is an actual quality difference in this particular coin at this grade.

 

People who are vocal and dogmatic in their proclamations sometimes forget that forum posters (here and ATS) sometimes play in spectrums of numismatics and often in different ends of the pool. It's natural for them to view the PCGS vs. NGC debate from entirely different viewpoints..... and they might both be right, for the areas they participate in.

[brg5658]

For another comparison, for 1922-P $1 coins in MS67 (of which there aren't that many sales), the average PCGS Heritage sale is for $12,300 and the average NGC price has been $3,700. Obviously, a large body of bidders feels rather strongly that there is an actual quality difference in this particular coin at this grade.

 

People who are vocal and dogmatic in their proclamations sometimes forget that forum posters (here and ATS) sometimes play in spectrums of numismatics and often in different ends of the pool. It's natural for them to view the PCGS vs. NGC debate from entirely different viewpoints..... and they might both be right, for the areas they participate in.

 

It only takes 2 PCGS registry players with lots of money to blow for that price difference to manifest. I don't think you can ever tease apart the amount of the sale price that was paid for a "difference in quality" vs. the people who just have to have the "best" for their plastic-brand-specific registry set.

[TonerGuy]

 

In MS64 (ignoring 64+ coins), over the same period, the PCGS coins averaged $1260 while NGC averaged $1152 for a difference of only about 10%.

 

For another comparison, for 1922-P $1 coins in MS67 (of which there aren't that many sales), the average PCGS Heritage sale is for $12,300 and the average NGC price has been $3,700. Obviously, a large body of bidders feels rather strongly that there is an actual quality difference in this particular coin at this grade.

 

People who are vocal and dogmatic in their proclamations sometimes forget that forum posters (here and ATS) sometimes play in spectrums of numismatics and often in different ends of the pool. It's natural for them to view the PCGS vs. NGC debate from entirely different viewpoints..... and they might both be right, for the areas they participate in.

 

I think our little side discussion is on point of the actual issue. On higher end gem coins the market gives PCGS a distinctive advantage over NGC at least in Peace $. You really cant argue with the numbers. And I suspect that it might be applicable to numerous other series.

 

In the more numerous collector coins arena there really isnt a market distinction. Since I have never been able to afford and thus havent compared NGC and PCGS MS65 24-S or MS67 22-Ps I cant speak from experience. However in the MS65 and under category I have viewed thousands upon thousands of Peace $ and I never noticed a real difference in their grading standards.

 

So unless you can afford to buy gemmy Peace $ crossing really makes no difference. The potential risks (crack out) far outweigh the rewards. And does PCGS really care about another MS65 or 66 Peace $ being in their plastic. I am sure they do want as many 67s as they can get though.

 

As an aside this would also seem to support the idea that coins under that gemmy grade level could benefit from a trip to CAC as opposed to being crossed. Which is counter-intuitive to the reasoning now that only coins above a certain level should be sent to CAC.

 

Thank you for putting in the time to pull the numbers off HA.

[MarkFeld]

OK, I'm the poster from ATS and no I'm not a "Kool-Aid" drinker at all. Have plenty of coins in non-PCGS slabs and some of my best Morgan toners are in NGC and ANACS slabs and I don't plan to cross or crack them out.

 

I was overhearing the dealer comments while quietly going through various trays, slab boxes and 2x2's looking for stuff to add to my collection. I did not pose any question to any dealer about slabs nor add anything to those conversations; love how one poster already assumed I baited a question to 'elicit the kool-aid response' I was looking for. Jeez! Also, how am I supposed to know which dealers are the 'PCGS peddlers' before I sit at their table?

 

To brg - why is it hogwash? I heard what I heard. If what they are saying is hogwash, then yes I can live with that. Of course NGC is still here and I hope they are around for a long time. And what do you mean by 'expected by that poster ATS'? I usally just post my purchases ATS and don't make stuff up. If I had passed thru those dealer tables 15 minutes sooner or later, I probably would have missed those 'anti NGC' conversations altogether. I didn't even say they were right or wrong, that is what they were saying and probably believed too. They are in it to make a buck.

 

Like or not, what coinman_23885 says in his post is pretty much true. I deal a lot in capped bust halves (in VF to AU-58) and see the spread in the selling prices for that series, especially in the AU-58 grade. It is what it is, and that's why people do crackouts and crossovers in a series like this.

 

Give me a frickn' break and go back the lala land........... If everyone knew how grade, the PCGS marketing gimic would never work - WHY did the Newman collection go to NGC? WHY does the Smithsonian use NGC? Well gosh, could be they are very good at what they do, and therez lots of money to be made (and lost) in the Newman collection, and I am sure Mr. Newman et al. did not take that decision on which grading company to use lightly, and oh BTW, about 80% of them thar NGC Newman coins CACed FWIW. That speaks volumes on the quality of NGC grading. So if the dumb- dealers caint figure it out, too bad for them - y'allz can go on belivin' the kool-aid mantra and miss yore 'tang.

 

Best, HT

 

Your rude reply indicates that either you didn't read or comprehend his post. You sound as if you were replying to something other than what was actually written.

 

He reported what he heard. He didn't say that he agreed with it. He owns and doesn't try to cross his NGC coins. Edited to add: "Have plenty of coins in non-PCGS slabs and some of my best Morgan toners are in NGC and ANACS slabs and I don't plan to cross or crack them out".

 

And, deserved or not and like it or not, there often is a spread in selling prices between NGC and PCGS coins. There was nothing "lala land" about his post.

[brg5658]

Your rude reply indicates that either you didn't read or comprehend his post. You sound as if you were replying to something other than what was actually written.

 

He reported what he heard. He didn't say that he agreed with it. He owns and doesn't try to cross his NGC coins. And, deserved or not and like it or not, there often is a spread in selling prices between NGC and PCGS coins. There was nothing "lala land" about his post.

 

Actually, MarkFeld, in his full post ATS, ElmerFusterpuck made it very clear that he does indeed play the crossover game. That's his prerogative, but your statement above is incorrect.

 

A direct quote:

I took advantage of the quarterly crossover (regular service) special while at the show; I brought 5 NGC coins with me that I thought had a decent shot of crossing. I bought these over a decade ago; I'll post the results in another thread when I get the results. Then line for this got very LONG the two days I was there. The PCGS booth seemed to be the most busy, NGC has some traffic and the ANACS booth seemed forlorn most of the time.

[AHFreak]

Your rude reply indicates that either you didn't read or comprehend his post. You sound as if you were replying to something other than what was actually written.

 

He reported what he heard. He didn't say that he agreed with it. He owns and doesn't try to cross his NGC coins. And, deserved or not and like it or not, there often is a spread in selling prices between NGC and PCGS coins. There was nothing "lala land" about his post.

 

Actually, MarkFeld, in his full post ATS, ElmerFusterpuck made it very clear that he does indeed play the crossover game. That's his prerogative, but your statement above is incorrect.

 

A direct quote:

I took advantage of the quarterly crossover (regular service) special while at the show; I brought 5 NGC coins with me that I thought had a decent shot of crossing. I bought these over a decade ago; I'll post the results in another thread when I get the results. Then line for this got very LONG the two days I was there. The PCGS booth seemed to be the most busy, NGC has some traffic and the ANACS booth seemed forlorn most of the time.

 

I don't see Mark's statement being incorrect...

 

 

Just because someone "plays the crackout game" doesn't mean they do not have, and plan to keep coins that are currently slabbed by NGC".

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Your rude reply indicates that either you didn't read or comprehend his post. You sound as if you were replying to something other than what was actually written.

 

He reported what he heard. He didn't say that he agreed with it. He owns and doesn't try to cross his NGC coins. And, deserved or not and like it or not, there often is a spread in selling prices between NGC and PCGS coins. There was nothing "lala land" about his post.

 

Actually, MarkFeld, in his full post ATS, ElmerFusterpuck made it very clear that he does indeed play the crossover game. That's his prerogative, but your statement above is incorrect.

 

A direct quote:

I took advantage of the quarterly crossover (regular service) special while at the show; I brought 5 NGC coins with me that I thought had a decent shot of crossing. I bought these over a decade ago; I'll post the results in another thread when I get the results. Then line for this got very LONG the two days I was there. The PCGS booth seemed to be the most busy, NGC has some traffic and the ANACS booth seemed forlorn most of the time.

 

I don't see Mark's statement being incorrect...

 

 

Just because someone "plays the crackout game" doesn't mean they do not have, and plan to keep coins that are currently slabbed by NGC".

 

 

Either way, I was commenting, based on what the poster posted here and not what he posted on the other forum.

[AHFreak]

 

I think that anyone who plans on selling a coin or coins, whether a dealer, or a collector who for whatever reason is selling off part of his/her collection would be incredibly foolish and naïve not to at least evaluate the market for possible differences in PCGS/NGC, and then make decisions accordingly.

 

One thing I haven't heard said in this thread (not to say it hasn't been said) is that dealers buy/sell coins to make a living... Im guessing that most, if not all dealers "who are" operating with a preference for PCGS over NGC, are doing so because it is what their customers want, not ill-will towards NGC, consumption of magic "kool-aide", residence in "la la land", or any other reason that could imply to some that this is something bigger than it really is type of thing..... Most dealers I can think of don't really care, and are just perceptive to what their customers are asking for...

 

 

 

I dont know, maybe I am the one who is out of touch....

 

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

There is a sizable percentage of coins where grading standards overlap, probably 80%. Most of us do not deal in $2000 plus coins very often. All you have to do is scrutinize auction and CDN pricing to see what percentage of coins fit into the nether reaches of value, as you go through CDN quarterly I to quarterly III due out soon, and the coin issues listed in the monthly and weekly guide. To do a comprehensive analysis you would have to examine each sector of the market and then establish % differentials. NGC has spoken on the record on these issues: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259

[brg5658]

There is a sizable percentage of coins where grading standards overlap, probably 80%. Most of us do not deal in $2000 plus coins very often. All you have to do is scrutinize auction and CDN pricing to see what percentage of coins fit into the nether reaches of value, as you go through CDN quarterly I to quarterly III due out soon, and the coin issues listed in the monthly and weekly guide. To do a comprehensive analysis you would have to examine each sector of the market and then establish % differentials. NGC has spoken on the record on these issues: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259

 

Reading that (again) made me respect Mark Salzberg all the more. That guy is a class act! (thumbs u

[jom]

There is a sizable percentage of coins where grading standards overlap, probably 80%. Most of us do not deal in $2000 plus coins very often. All you have to do is scrutinize auction and CDN pricing to see what percentage of coins fit into the nether reaches of value, as you go through CDN quarterly I to quarterly III due out soon, and the coin issues listed in the monthly and weekly guide. To do a comprehensive analysis you would have to examine each sector of the market and then establish % differentials. NGC has spoken on the record on these issues: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259

 

Reading that (again) made me respect Mark Salzberg all the more. That guy is a class act! (thumbs u

 

Great article!

 

jom

[AHFreak]

wow.. what an insightful article...

 

 

[jpcienkus]

There is a sizable percentage of coins where grading standards overlap, probably 80%. Most of us do not deal in $2000 plus coins very often. All you have to do is scrutinize auction and CDN pricing to see what percentage of coins fit into the nether reaches of value, as you go through CDN quarterly I to quarterly III due out soon, and the coin issues listed in the monthly and weekly guide. To do a comprehensive analysis you would have to examine each sector of the market and then establish % differentials. NGC has spoken on the record on these issues: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259

 

Reading that (again) made me respect Mark Salzberg all the more. That guy is a class act! (thumbs u

 

Great article!

 

jom

 

+1

 

Great read! I printed it for my files so I can re-read from time to time. Thanks for the link Brandon!

[T&MSimmons]

This is an old myth that PCGS collectors hype to keep the value of their coins up in my opinion. I have tested this myth several times by cracking a PCGS slab and sending it in to NGC. The PCGS coin comes back from NGC with the same rating as it had in the PCGS slab. Try it yourself and shut up unless you have some facts.

At least half of my coins are PCGS however I will not pay more for PCGS.

[TonerGuy]

There is a sizable percentage of coins where grading standards overlap, probably 80%. Most of us do not deal in $2000 plus coins very often. All you have to do is scrutinize auction and CDN pricing to see what percentage of coins fit into the nether reaches of value, as you go through CDN quarterly I to quarterly III due out soon, and the coin issues listed in the monthly and weekly guide. To do a comprehensive analysis you would have to examine each sector of the market and then establish % differentials. NGC has spoken on the record on these issues: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259

 

Yes a very good read and you can tell he is an intelligent guy that is well spoken and thinks before he talks...

 

Now -- does anyone have a link to an interview that David Hall has done ? I would like to compare and contrast.

[jom]

There is a sizable percentage of coins where grading standards overlap, probably 80%. Most of us do not deal in $2000 plus coins very often. All you have to do is scrutinize auction and CDN pricing to see what percentage of coins fit into the nether reaches of value, as you go through CDN quarterly I to quarterly III due out soon, and the coin issues listed in the monthly and weekly guide. To do a comprehensive analysis you would have to examine each sector of the market and then establish % differentials. NGC has spoken on the record on these issues: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259

 

Yes a very good read and you can tell he is an intelligent guy that is well spoken and thinks before he talks...

 

Now -- does anyone have a link to an interview that David Hall has done ? I would like to compare and contrast.

 

Yeah...uh...let's just say you won't come away with a similar impression.

 

jom

[brg5658]

There is a sizable percentage of coins where grading standards overlap, probably 80%. Most of us do not deal in $2000 plus coins very often. All you have to do is scrutinize auction and CDN pricing to see what percentage of coins fit into the nether reaches of value, as you go through CDN quarterly I to quarterly III due out soon, and the coin issues listed in the monthly and weekly guide. To do a comprehensive analysis you would have to examine each sector of the market and then establish % differentials. NGC has spoken on the record on these issues: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259

 

Yes a very good read and you can tell he is an intelligent guy that is well spoken and thinks before he talks...

 

Now -- does anyone have a link to an interview that David Hall has done ? I would like to compare and contrast.

 

Yeah...uh...let's just say you won't come away with a similar impression.

 

jom

 

...so true!

 

 

----------------------------------

I found this (PCGS-jab) quite humorous and spot-on:

 

MR: Pressure must have been put to you by some submitters to grade their coins a certain way. How have you handled those pressures?

 

MS: The bottom line is that we have a solid guarantee on our product and over-graded coins won’t trade in the marketplace. Both factors are crucial to NGC’s business and reputation. What’s more, every coin that we overgrade is a contingent liability for us and will eventually cost us money to buy back. I don’t have shareholders or stock analysts breathing down my back demanding profits. Given all this, the pressures are easily mitigated. There’s another side to this. Sometimes when I walk the floor of a coin show, people complain to me about how we graded one of their coins. And you know what? They’re proven right. I have to have an open mind and be able to take a fresh look at those coins. However, keep in mind that if any coin comes in to NGC for regrading and I know who owns it, I recuse myself from the grading process.

[TonerGuy]

I don’t have shareholders or stock analysts breathing down my back demanding profits.

 

In a way though this one statement does explain quite a lot. While there is a downside to stock holders, there is an upside.

 

In my humble opinion, I do see PCGS picking up money off the table that NGC has left sitting there... in my area of experience it would be toned ASEs (PCGS might be picking up too much of that money) and toned moderns coins. These are two areas that are highly controversial and risky but PCGS will basically grade anything sent their way.

 

I also think the stockholders is what drives PCGS's marketing which does result in their slight edge in the market.

 

 

 

[RWB]

"...I do see PCGS picking up money off the table that NGC has left sitting there..."

 

Are you suggesting a difference between business profits and business ethics? Perish the MBA thought!

[brg5658]

"...I do see PCGS picking up money off the table that NGC has left sitting there..."

 

Are you suggesting a difference between business profits and business ethics? Perish the MBA thought!

 

 

NGC should start a new slogan -- "NGC the ethical choice among TPGs"

[TonerGuy]

"...I do see PCGS picking up money off the table that NGC has left sitting there..."

 

Are you suggesting a difference between business profits and business ethics? Perish the MBA thought!

 

Im not sure its a matter of ethics. I dont think evaluating toned ASEs and moderns and authenticating them is unethical. I think slabbing any ASE with toning is foolhardy and might tarnish their reputation now and down the line if someone ever comes forward publicly and demonstrates how easy it is to tone a .999 pure silver coin. (no pun intended).

 

It would only be unethical if PCGS knew that many of the toned ASEs they are encapsulating are in fact artificially enhanced. Im not sure how they dont suspect that but to know is something entirely different.

[TonerGuy]

Removed at the request of the original poster

 

Assuming you are correct and I have no reason to doubt you - yes - that is now an ethical problem for PCGS and quite honestly a potential stock issue under Sarbanes Oxley since authenticating and grading known AT coins could result in mass litigation if the owners of those coins decided to invoke rights under the PCGS guaranty and werent willing to except bullion value as a settlement, assuming that is what PCGS were to offer them. From my research toned ASEs in PCGS retail usually for $75 to $500 depending on how vivid the colors are. Quite a few people could be out significant sums.

[AHFreak]

There is a sizable percentage of coins where grading standards overlap, probably 80%. Most of us do not deal in $2000 plus coins very often. All you have to do is scrutinize auction and CDN pricing to see what percentage of coins fit into the nether reaches of value, as you go through CDN quarterly I to quarterly III due out soon, and the coin issues listed in the monthly and weekly guide. To do a comprehensive analysis you would have to examine each sector of the market and then establish % differentials. NGC has spoken on the record on these issues: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259

 

Yes a very good read and you can tell he is an intelligent guy that is well spoken and thinks before he talks...

 

Now -- does anyone have a link to an interview that David Hall has done ? I would like to compare and contrast.

 

Yeah...uh...let's just say you won't come away with a similar impression.

 

jom

 

You aren't kidding..... last year in June, I attended the PCGS grading course at Long Beach. part of the "class" was an appearance from David Hall.. He came in and started talking, and I was completely STUNNED. His ego almost knocked me over. I still cannot believe how "out of touch with reality" he is.

 

picture a room with about 30 numismatist who are just starting out, or at least far from experts at best.... He told this room of people that if they are serious about learning how to grade, that they should go buy a bag/1000 silver dollars! (one thousand silver dollars- this was June 2013), as if that $25-$30K wasn't unrealistic enough, the point of doing so was to go though each one, grade it (or at least try, by guessing the grade as best you can) and then.... ARE YOU READY??? Send them to PCGS and have them graded..... "SEE HOW CLOSE YOU WERE".... LMAO....... Nothing about all of the amazing resources out there... no Summer Seminar or inexpensive books.... Just get ahold of $50K-$60K.... send over $30K of it to PCGS, and "attempt" to learn not by expert guidance, but by trial and error at the expense of whatever it would cost to grade 1000 silver dollars......... He told the room that is how "he would do it" if he were starting out today, he then went to say that those of us who were really serious about coins, would be willing do whatever it takes to figure it out...

 

I could go on and on.

 

Here is what I find the most amazing, about 1.5-2 years ago I started sending coins for encapsulation... At that point I was open to using either our hosts here or the guys ATS as I had really nothing that would sway me one direction or the other. Looking back on my first few contacts with both companies, and after reading that interview with Mark Salzberg, and the other things I have read and heard being said about him, compared to initial contact with ATS and my amazing "30 minute" Q&A with David Hall... I can absolutely say for certain that how each company deals with/treats customers/people is DIRECTLY RELATED to what type of person each respective company has "at the wheel".... It is a direct reflection... Now, anyone with any business-sense knows that will usually be the case, I just found it amazing how much that applied here, with companies operating at the level they operate at, with how many levels of management there are in between the top and the bottom (Pres/CEO down to the secretary fielding incoming C.S phone calls). I just find it amazing at how much trickles right down to the very bottom in both cases.

 

Koodos to you NGC! Koodos to you.

 

PS- no Kool-Aid here folks. Just water for me.

[coinman_23885]

"...I do see PCGS picking up money off the table that NGC has left sitting there..."

 

Are you suggesting a difference between business profits and business ethics? Perish the MBA thought!

 

 

NGC should start a new slogan -- "NGC the ethical choice among TPGs"

 

That would result in lawsuits and even if NGC "won" legally, considering the attorney's fee, no one would come come out ahead (except perhaps the lawyers).

[coinman_23885]

Looking back on my first few contacts with both companies, and after reading that interview with Mark Salzberg, and the other things I have read and heard being said about him, compared to initial contact with ATS and my amazing "30 minute" Q&A with David Hall... I can absolutely say for certain that how each company deals with/treats customers/people is DIRECTLY RELATED to what type of person each respective company has "at the wheel"...

 

Apparently David Hall wanted to go back to coin dealing, so Don Willis now runs that ship. And as much as Hall's ego and bravado can be a turn off to many, he is a breath of fresh air compared to Don.