What do these Hoard examples have in common?

[BROADSTRUCK]

1.) The Saddle Ridge Gold Hoard all conserved and scrubbed until fingers bleed.

 

2.) The 314XXXXX Leather Pouch Peace Dollar Hoard considered AT by everyone in the know.

 

Care to guess?

 

[coinman_23885]

The underlying hype and story were over romanticized and/or made up? Both hoards were chemically treated?

 

Edited: I actually hate.both pieces and am surprised the coins stickered.

[coinman_23885]

Also I think that you and a good number of others are being unfair to coins that have a serial number starting with 314. Assuming that a coin doctor even did get through a couple submissions of AT coins, there are still many other submissions of 314 coins that are unrelated and those pieces are being unfairly stigmatized.

[physics-fan3.14]

Both examples you posted have the green football, for what its worth.

[Danye West]

I like the peace a lot. For AT, it is not 'over the top' and compliments the coin well. As for what's in common, I do not know, other than what people have said above.

[TonerGuy]

Also I think that you and a good number of others are being unfair to coins that have a serial number starting with 314. Assuming that a coin doctor even did get through a couple submissions of AT coins, there are still many other submissions of 314 coins that are unrelated and those pieces are being unfairly stigmatized.

 

Ive never seen a non Peace $ 314XXX coin. If you say they are getting unfairly labeled AT can you please post an image of a 314XXXX coin that isnt a Peace $...

 

 

[MarkFeld]

If, by chance, you were looking for unbiased replies, your slanted presentation wasn't the way to elicit them. Regardless, my answer is that what those "Hoard examples have in common" is disagreement regarding their market acceptability.

[AHFreak]

Also I think that you and a good number of others are being unfair to coins that have a serial number starting with 314. Assuming that a coin doctor even did get through a couple submissions of AT coins, there are still many other submissions of 314 coins that are unrelated and those pieces are being unfairly stigmatized.

 

Ive never seen a non Peace $ 314XXX coin. If you say they are getting unfairly labeled AT can you please post an image of a 314XXXX coin that isnt a Peace $...

 

 

No image, but cert # 314575-001 Is not a Peace dollar.... It is a 1926 cent in MS65RD

[AHFreak]

1.) The Saddle Ridge Gold Hoard all conserved and scrubbed until fingers bleed.

 

2.) The 314XXXXX Leather Pouch Peace Dollar Hoard considered AT by everyone in the know.

 

Care to guess?

 

I have found it surprising that so many people have such negative feelings about these gold coins being conserved and I was wondering, As far as these Saddle Ridge gold coins being "conserved".... may I ask those of you with negative thoughts/feelings towards the conservation exactly what it is that is so bothersome or concerning to you and also what the alternative is when you find an 19th century gold coin in UNC condition that was buried in the ground for over 100 years??? Should the dirt not be removed from the coin? Should they not be slabbed? Should they be put back in the ground where nobody can enjoy them? I don't understand what the fussing and crying is about???

 

no offense to anyone who is against it, I just do not understand why, and was hoping that maybe someone would care to enlighten me as clearly I am missing something on the issue.

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1.) The Saddle Ridge Gold Hoard all conserved and scrubbed until fingers bleed.

 

2.) The 314XXXXX Leather Pouch Peace Dollar Hoard considered AT by everyone in the know.

 

Care to guess?

 

I have found it surprising that so many people have such negative feelings about these gold coins being conserved and I was wondering, As far as these Saddle Ridge gold coins being "conserved".... may I ask those of you with negative thoughts/feelings towards the conservation exactly what it is that is so bothersome or concerning to you and also what the alternative is when you find an 19th century gold coin in UNC condition that was buried in the ground for over 100 years??? Should the dirt not be removed from the coin? Should they not be slabbed? Should they be put back in the ground where nobody can enjoy them? I don't understand what the fussing and crying is about???

 

no offense to anyone who is against it, I just do not understand why, and was hoping that maybe someone would care to enlighten me as clearly I am missing something on the issue.

 

 

Another way of presenting the question would be that if the coin was reclaimed and is graded a 63, and the story is known and the conservation is known, is another coin that was not conserved and was not enhanced that is also graded a 63 only equal in status? Should the grading of the conserved coin not clearly identify the enhancement?

[Nutmeg Coin]

Most of the SR hoard coins looked high end to me. Time will tell, coins do turn given enough duration.

 

Warren Mills was not so salubrious, no "crust" which RCNH likes:

 

"The Saddleridge hoard coins were on display. I spoke with Don Kagin when he came buy our table to say hi. I said that it was a nice numismatic treasure but I hated that the coins had to be so conserved, the color on them didn’t look right at all! If a collector needs a date from this hoard, good luck….just don’t expect the coins to look like your other gold pieces. PCGS also made a special gold insert tag for them."

http://www.rcnh.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86:march-2014-baltimore&catid=15&Itemid=114

[coinman_23885]

Also I think that you and a good number of others are being unfair to coins that have a serial number starting with 314. Assuming that a coin doctor even did get through a couple submissions of AT coins, there are still many other submissions of 314 coins that are unrelated and those pieces are being unfairly stigmatized.

 

Ive never seen a non Peace $ 314XXX coin. If you say they are getting unfairly labeled AT can you please post an image of a 314XXXX coin that isnt a Peace $...

 

 

You missed my point entirely. The numbers on the NGC slab ahead of the dash correspond to the invoice number and the three digit number after the dash represents a line or coin on an invoice. So by saying that out of the 7 digits or so all of them that begin with 314XXXX are AT, you are potentially including thousands of invoices and coins. Even assuming that there was a mass submission or two of coins with toning that you question, this would constitute a few submissions at most (more than likely).

 

And there are Peace Dollars that begin with 314 that look nothing like the example that Broadstruck has nor the few similarly toned examples I have seen. Forum member CopperToning has one. And when his coin looks nothing like the rest, looks completely natural, and is stable, I find it ludicrous to make broad claims, based on hearsay and speculation, that would only serve to stigmatize his piece and others similarly situated.

[TonerGuy]

 

You missed my point entirely. The numbers on the NGC slab ahead of the dash correspond to the invoice number and the three digit number after the dash represents a line or coin on an invoice. So by saying that out of the 7 digits or so all of them that begin with 314XXXX are AT, you are potentially including thousands of invoices and coins. Even assuming that there was a mass submission or two of coins with toning that you question, this would constitute a few submissions at most (more than likely).

 

And there are Peace Dollars that begin with 314 that look nothing like the example that Broadstruck has nor the few similarly toned examples I have seen. Forum member CopperToning has one. And when his coin looks nothing like the rest, looks completely natural, and is stable, I find it ludicrous to make broad claims, based on hearsay and speculation, that would only serve to stigmatize his piece and others similarly situated.

 

I misunderstood you actually. I thought you were saying there were other denominations submitted with the AT leather pouch hoard that werent AT. I dont know if there were other coins submitted with the Peace $. And of course all other toned 314 coins arent necessarily AT. I think when people talk about 314XXX Peace $ they are specifically talking about this hoard. Could there be 314XXX toned Peace $ that didnt come from this hoard ? Sure but I havent seen any in 15 years.

 

Ive seen 70+ of these Peace $ over the past 15 yrs. I can assure you that they dont look at all the same but they have certain similarities. I have owned/sold numerous (25+) 314XXX leather pouch hoard coins that dont look like the above coin but they are still from the same hoard. I still have one 314 coin that supposedly had the leather strapped wrapped around it. Its a very cool looking coin with the obverse being mostly white while the reverse is toned with a thick blue-opalescent stripe running from 12:30 to 6:30. It looks nothing like the other coins. I have also owned non 314XXX toned Peace $ that look very similar to the coin above. Were they cracked and resubmitted - probably.

 

Not all ducks look the same but if they all quack they are still ducks.

[AHFreak]

1.) The Saddle Ridge Gold Hoard all conserved and scrubbed until fingers bleed.

 

2.) The 314XXXXX Leather Pouch Peace Dollar Hoard considered AT by everyone in the know.

 

Care to guess?

 

I have found it surprising that so many people have such negative feelings about these gold coins being conserved and I was wondering, As far as these Saddle Ridge gold coins being "conserved".... may I ask those of you with negative thoughts/feelings towards the conservation exactly what it is that is so bothersome or concerning to you and also what the alternative is when you find an 19th century gold coin in UNC condition that was buried in the ground for over 100 years??? Should the dirt not be removed from the coin? Should they not be slabbed? Should they be put back in the ground where nobody can enjoy them? I don't understand what the fussing and crying is about???

 

no offense to anyone who is against it, I just do not understand why, and was hoping that maybe someone would care to enlighten me as clearly I am missing something on the issue.

 

 

Another way of presenting the question would be that if the coin was reclaimed and is graded a 63, and the story is known and the conservation is known, is another coin that was not conserved and was not enhanced that is also graded a 63 only equal in status? Should the grading of the conserved coin not clearly identify the enhancement?

 

Enhancement? I find it interesting that you not only changed the question, (that wasn't my question, and at the end of the day, for me it all boils down to the coin, especially on a 63 there can be a lot of variance to what matters when valuing a coin... for me, I value "eye appeal" so conservation or not, which one has more appeal?).

 

I find it even more curious that you also changed the word from conservation, to "enhancement"..... you might consider "conservation" to be "enhancing" a coin, but I consider it more like "preservation", and I feel that it is very important to effectively "preserve" something as historically significant as an UNC 19th century U.S. gold coin.

I myself am of the opinion that a coin that has been buried in the ground for many years should absolutely be "conserved" as how else are you going to get the dirt off??? should we leave the dirt on and slab it that way or not slab it at all because whoever it was buried it 150 years ago and now it has dirt on it?

 

I seriously do not get the problem. I do not see "conservation" as "enhancement"... at all. I respect that some people have the opinion that conservation is "enhancement", but it doesn't seem to work the other way around in my experience.

 

What else? There has to be more to it than the holder not clearly stating "conserved" after being found buried in the dirt for a hundred plus years... why is it that coins like this being properly preserved so unacceptable based on so many peoples views/opinions?

 

You do realize that there is a very big difference between being "dipped" and "conservation" right?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1.) The Saddle Ridge Gold Hoard all conserved and scrubbed until fingers bleed.

 

2.) The 314XXXXX Leather Pouch Peace Dollar Hoard considered AT by everyone in the know.

 

Care to guess?

 

I have found it surprising that so many people have such negative feelings about these gold coins being conserved and I was wondering, As far as these Saddle Ridge gold coins being "conserved".... may I ask those of you with negative thoughts/feelings towards the conservation exactly what it is that is so bothersome or concerning to you and also what the alternative is when you find an 19th century gold coin in UNC condition that was buried in the ground for over 100 years??? Should the dirt not be removed from the coin? Should they not be slabbed? Should they be put back in the ground where nobody can enjoy them? I don't understand what the fussing and crying is about???

 

no offense to anyone who is against it, I just do not understand why, and was hoping that maybe someone would care to enlighten me as clearly I am missing something on the issue.

 

 

Another way of presenting the question would be that if the coin was reclaimed and is graded a 63, and the story is known and the conservation is known, is another coin that was not conserved and was not enhanced that is also graded a 63 only equal in status? Should the grading of the conserved coin not clearly identify the enhancement?

 

Enhancement? I find it interesting that you not only changed the question, (that wasn't my question, and at the end of the day, for me it all boils down to the coin, especially on a 63 there can be a lot of variance to what matters when valuing a coin... for me, I value "eye appeal" so conservation or not, which one has more appeal?).

 

I find it even more curious that you also changed the word from conservation, to "enhancement"..... you might consider "conservation" to be "enhancing" a coin, but I consider it more like "preservation", and I feel that it is very important to effectively "preserve" something as historically significant as an UNC 19th century U.S. gold coin.

I myself am of the opinion that a coin that has been buried in the ground for many years should absolutely be "conserved" as how else are you going to get the dirt off??? should we leave the dirt on and slab it that way or not slab it at all because whoever it was buried it 150 years ago and now it has dirt on it?

 

I seriously do not get the problem. I do not see "conservation" as "enhancement"... at all. I respect that some people have the opinion that conservation is "enhancement", but it doesn't seem to work the other way around in my experience.

 

What else? There has to be more to it than the holder not clearly stating "conserved" after being found buried in the dirt for a hundred plus years... why is it that coins like this being properly preserved so unacceptable based on so many peoples views/opinions?

 

You do realize that there is a very big difference between being "dipped" and "conservation" right?

 

What I realize is that you asked for thoughts on the matter, you received a suggestion, you disregard the suggestion (without carefully reading) and do so without offering a clear and logical reason for the disregard.

 

I also realize your tendency to be condescending. You do that a lot.

 

I also realize your a curious fellow.

 

You need not reply. I don't need to win or belittle and dismiss others.

 

You are correct. It is not a big deal, in the big picture. Neither is your, or my, opinion.

[brg5658]

The all-powerful OZ has approved them both. They must be good.

 

 

 

Pssst....don't look behind the curtain.

[Afterword]

Restoration.

[RWB]

Funny -- and sad, too.

[johnny9434]

The underlying hype and story were over romanticized and/or made up? Both hoards were chemically treated?

 

Edited: I actually hate.both pieces and am surprised the coins stickered.

that struck me as odd as well them being stickered.

[EXOJUNKIE]

The underlying hype and story were over romanticized and/or made up? Both hoards were chemically treated?

 

Edited: I actually hate.both pieces and am surprised the coins stickered.

that struck me as odd as well them being stickered.

 

I agree. Surprising that CAC is not "in the know."

[MarkFeld]

The underlying hype and story were over romanticized and/or made up? Both hoards were chemically treated?

 

Edited: I actually hate.both pieces and am surprised the coins stickered.

that struck me as odd as well them being stickered.

 

I agree. Surprising that CAC is not "in the know."

 

Surprising that you apparently assume CAC is not "in the know". Perhaps they assessed the coins based on their technical qualities and appearances, while ignoring whatever stories and/or rumors you might have heard.

[coinman_23885]

The underlying hype and story were over romanticized and/or made up? Both hoards were chemically treated?

 

Edited: I actually hate.both pieces and am surprised the coins stickered.

that struck me as odd as well them being stickered.

 

I agree. Surprising that CAC is not "in the know."

 

Surprising that you apparently assume CAC is not "in the know". Perhaps they assessed the coins based on their technical qualities and appearances, while ignoring whatever stories and/or rumors you might have heard.

 

As it should do... I still think CAC was wrong on this one (not that my opinion matters or is as respected as CAC's).

[TonerGuy]

The underlying hype and story were over romanticized and/or made up? Both hoards were chemically treated?

 

Edited: I actually hate.both pieces and am surprised the coins stickered.

that struck me as odd as well them being stickered.

 

I agree. Surprising that CAC is not "in the know."

 

Surprising that you apparently assume CAC is not "in the know". Perhaps they assessed the coins based on their technical qualities and appearances, while ignoring whatever stories and/or rumors you might have heard.

 

I think that there are certain toned hoards, well actually all toned hoards, that have been encapsulated by PCGS and NGC that get "grandfathered in" so to speak - Leather Pouch, Appalachian, Battle Creek, Peacock ect....

 

I doubt highly that CAC would proclaim a certain hoard to be AT and not bean any of the coins.

 

And if I remember correctly isnt the green/gold bean nothing more than an affirmation that JA would buy that coin ?

 

When did a CAC bean become a seal of overall approval ?

[coinman_23885]

I think that there are certain toned hoards, well actually all toned hoards, that have been encapsulated by PCGS and NGC that get "grandfathered in" so to speak - Leather Pouch, Appalachian, Battle Creek, Peacock ect....

 

I have never, ever heard anyone question the toning on the Battle Creek Morgan Dollar hoard; thus, I am surprised to see you list it with hoards or speculated to exist hoards that are controversial. This is, of course, unless I am inferring more than you meant or am misunderstanding what you mean by "grandfathered in."

[TonerGuy]

I think that there are certain toned hoards, well actually all toned hoards, that have been encapsulated by PCGS and NGC that get "grandfathered in" so to speak - Leather Pouch, Appalachian, Battle Creek, Peacock ect....

 

I have never, ever heard anyone question the toning on the Battle Creek Morgan Dollar hoard; thus, I am surprised to see you list it with hoards or speculated to exist hoards that are controversial. This is, of course, unless I am inferring more than you meant or am misunderstanding what you mean by "grandfathered in."

 

I was just giving examples of toned hoards. I wasnt implying one or more were AT or even questionable. Coins from all of the hoards I mentioned have been graded by both PCGS and NGC hence they are market acceptable. And market acceptance is what I meant by grandfathered in.

 

As an example of the opposite, Shane sold some toned Ikes from the "Golden Nugget Casino Hoard." The coins look NT but since they are in IGC holders, NGC wont cross them - only PCGS will. But I havent seen a single PCGS "Golden Nugget Hoard" coin. Will CAC bean a 'Golden Nugget Hoard" IF someone can cross one into PCGS plastic ? I would imagine the answer to be yes since PCGS crossed it.

[Conder101]

Surprising that you apparently assume CAC is not "in the know".

Mark did you miss his smilie? I interpreted his "in the know" comment as a joke meaning "Well they obviously haven't consulted us." I did not see it as an implication that CAC was wrong.

[MarkFeld]

Surprising that you apparently assume CAC is not "in the know".

Mark did you miss his smilie? I interpreted his "in the know" comment as a joke meaning "Well they obviously haven't consulted us." I did not see it as an implication that CAC was wrong.

 

Thanks Conder. I saw the smile, but was not quite sure what to make of it.

[jom]

The underlying hype and story were over romanticized and/or made up? Both hoards were chemically treated?

 

Edited: I actually hate.both pieces and am surprised the coins stickered.

that struck me as odd as well them being stickered.

 

I agree. Surprising that CAC is not "in the know."

 

Surprising that you apparently assume CAC is not "in the know". Perhaps they assessed the coins based on their technical qualities and appearances, while ignoring whatever stories and/or rumors you might have heard.

 

As it should do... I still think CAC was wrong on this one (not that my opinion matters or is as respected as CAC's).

 

I don't think you or CAC are wrong. It's a difference of opinion only. They felt they could support the coin at that grade. They aren't "wrong" so to speak. YOU may not like it and that's fine...I don't either but I don't like Peace dollars so my opinion matters even less. heh

 

jom

[jom]

The all-powerful OZ has approved them both. They must be good.

 

 

 

Pssst....don't look behind the curtain.

 

Why not? Is that where Ankur is hiding?

 

jom