Break it out or not? PART 2

[benjmurts]

To all those that said show the image of the coin, I still can't tell it is cleaned in hand

 

Here is the link http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=2637620-002

Check it out

[AHFreak]

Oh man... that is harshly cleaned, and bad enough that it is totally visible in the NGC pic, which usually they are not that great for picking up little details like that. On the obverse the perpendicular hairlines are as plain and obvious as day.... On the reverse, it isn't nearly as clear as day, but the color is off, and there is that tell tell sign of a cleaning where the fields and devices meet/come together...

 

Definitely would leave that one alone, as it is as the label states... improperly cleaned.

[Mohawk]

Yeah, I have to agree with AHFreak.....that one's very obviously cleaned. The obverse shows it clear as day. I'd leave that one just as it is, sell it for what you can get for it, cut your losses and move on. I think we've all been there. I know I have.

[Mark T]

Why would you bother to crack this out and resubmit? At best the coin if not cleaned would be Ms 64 with a value below $80. If NGC put it in a details holder for cleaning they would do it again as would PCGS.

[RWB]

Maybe you could put the money saved toward the cost of the ANA coin grading course?

[A.Phillips]

As what AHFreak said, harshly cleaned without a doubt. In addition, it looks like it has been cleaned recently.

[Coinbuf]

Yep that looks cleaned for sure. No offense but if your not able to see the cleaning on that coin you should suspend your buying of raw coins until you learn to spot the signs of cleaning. If you continue to purchase coins like this you could throw away alot of money.

[World Colonial]

To all those that said show the image of the coin, I still can't tell it is cleaned in hand

 

Here is the link http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=2637620-002

Check it out

 

Why do you even want that coin? The 1881-S Morgan dollar is a very common coin and you can buy one in a lower MS grade (like an MS-63 or MS-64) for nominal premium over this one.

[benjmurts]

Maybe you could put the money saved toward the cost of the ANA coin grading course?

 

To all of those bashing me for not knowing it is cleaned. I have several similar looking to this that are NGC graded MS 63, MS 64 and they are NOT marked improperly cleaned. I dont do very much with Morgans and mainly collect Large Cents/Indian head cents. I have several high grade large cents that many people on this site said were obviously cleaned yet NGC graded them AU 55- MS 64. Here is one example that at least 5 people said was cleaned.

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=2583336-007

 

Was also told this was environmental damage by a few people

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=2637621-002

[AHFreak]

Hey buddy... I certainly didn't feel like, or don't feel like anybody here is "bashing" you.

 

I think its perfectly fine your eye isn't recognizing the "cleaning"... I can tell you from my own experience that it is something the eye must be trained to pick up and the only way it happens is via experience and there is none better than what you just did with this coin.

 

 

As for the other two coins that you specifically said x amount of people told you this that or the other..... welcome to wild world of coins my friend.

 

not that it matters because it is only an "opinion" just like everyone elses... but I think that Morgan with the toning where you were told it would details "environmental damage" does have a borderline, "environmental" issue on the reverse (obverse is a beauty). I think if you were to grade that 10 times, you would have a couple/few times where it was a details coin.

 

I think on that large cent that I have never seen one with that level of issues that was put in a problem free holder.. Ever! I think if you sent that one in 10 times, that it would probably only get put in a problem free holder once....

Again, all just opinions...

 

 

what isn't an opinion though, is that first Morgan in your thread and whether or not is is "improperly cleaned".. It is, and IMO, no matter how many times u sent that for grading, it would come back "cleaned" 100% of the time.

 

an improperly cleaned morgan is fairly straightforward, especially one like the one you found.. its a very very different thing than those other two examples you posted links too, where the "subjectivity" has a lot more to leave the outcome affected by "interpretation" of viewer/grader/buyer/etc.... All that said, I do not think either of those other two will sell for the problem-free price that same grade, problem free counterparts would... I would be curious to know how it ends up going, follow up after you sell them.

[physics-fan3.14]

Don't take this as bashing (I don't think anyone is bashing you here) - take it as an education. The NGC picture of your Morgan very clearly shows parallel horizontal hairlines across the entire obverse of the coin - a clear sign of cleaning.

 

You may see a similar effect from die polishing. If you look, the two will appear quite different - but at a cursory glance (or, if you don't really know what you are looking at), they may appear similar.

[coinman_23885]

I see hair lines all over the obverse. Based on the image, I agree with NGC's assessment.

[BillJones]

It is an 1881-S dollar. Get over it!

 

Even if the coin had been a good one, it would still be marginal for certification given how common this date is in MS-64 to 66.

 

This coin as hairlines from cleaning. There is no way around it. This should a learning experience, not a reason to question NGC's call.

[dadams]

Determining cleaned vs original has been harder for me to learn than anything else as it pertains to coins. I've learned that hairlines are incuse and die polish is raised. If the lines travel over the devices then that is almost always a sure sign of a coin having been cleaned.

 

What are Hairlines and How Are They Caused?

[A.Phillips]

Maybe you could put the money saved toward the cost of the ANA coin grading course?

 

To all of those bashing me for not knowing it is cleaned. I have several similar looking to this that are NGC graded MS 63, MS 64 and they are NOT marked improperly cleaned. I dont do very much with Morgans and mainly collect Large Cents/Indian head cents. I have several high grade large cents that many people on this site said were obviously cleaned yet NGC graded them AU 55- MS 64. Here is one example that at least 5 people said was cleaned.

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=2583336-007

 

Was also told this was environmental damage by a few people

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/index.aspx?CertNumber=2637621-002

 

 

The link that you shared, 1856 large cent, may looks like it is cleaned, but I think it has been cleaned a long time ago or something. So to TPG may think it is "market acceptable" at AU55 price. Same thing with 1897 Morgan Dollar link, it doesn't looking like "environmental damage" to me.

 

Same idea with my 1819/8 Capped Bust Half, it is obviously cleaned or dipped, but NGC graded it at VF30.

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

The 1881-s $1 would have only been worth submitting from a monetary standpoint if you had a shot at least at an MS64 grade. I would check out auction records of already certified mintstate coins for common type to compare and contrast. Another thing that may sometimes be hard to "see" is what is missing with impaired coins? Luster, cartwheel, "dimension", if a coin has been cleaned, buffed, whizzed, overdipped, AT'd or otherwise messed with. I know a dealer who has hundreds of MS Morgans and I advised him to do a bulk submission; NGC offers low cost options and will only grade coins and charge the dealer for coins that meet the minimum grade.

 

In this case there was no value to get the coin graded; if the image had been posted initially that would have been clear as day from the start. Thanks for the link.

 

It makes no sense to tell basic collectors that they need to take the ANA grading course which involves a great deal of expense, travelling to the place it is offered and precious time. For dealers it makes sense not for basic collectors.

[RWB]

"It makes no sense to tell basic collectors that they need to take the ANA grading course which involves a great deal of expense, travelling to the place it is offered and precious time. For dealers it makes sense not for basic collectors."

 

What a load of horse manure! I completely disagree with you on this subject.

 

Encouraging collectors - new, intermediate, or otherwise - to learn more and to especially learn how to grade and evaluate coins themselves is an excellent way to educate collectors and help them avoid the pitfalls of TPG dependency, or on less-than-honest dealers.

 

The classes are not expensive and are held in conjunction with several major regional shows in addition to the Summer Seminars. Anecdotal information from past participants indicates they saved many times the modest course cost by acquiring and using their new knowledge.

 

Have you taken the course? If not, why not? You purport to buy and sell coins, but can you make consistent, informed grading decisions?

 

Yep, my response is a bit more individualized than I'd like, but your avocation of ignorance is astounding!

[Nutmeg Coin]

"It makes no sense to tell basic collectors that they need to take the ANA grading course which involves a great deal of expense, travelling to the place it is offered and precious time. For dealers it makes sense not for basic collectors."

 

What a load of horse manure! I completely disagree with you on this subject.

 

Encouraging collectors - new, intermediate, or otherwise - to learn more and to especially learn how to grade and evaluate coins themselves is an excellent way to educate collectors and help them avoid the pitfalls of TPG dependency, or on less-than-honest dealers.

 

The classes are not expensive and are held in conjunction with several major regional shows in addition to the Summer Seminars. Anecdotal information from past participants indicates they saved many times the modest course cost by acquiring and using their new knowledge.

 

Have you taken the course? If not, why not? You purport to buy and sell coins, but can you make consistent, informed grading decisions?

 

Yep, my response is a bit more individualized than I'd like, but your avocation of ignorance is astounding!

 

I was thinking of this course: http://www.money.org/explore-the-world-of-money/school-of-numismatics/numismatic-diploma.aspx

 

Travel to Colorado Springs for the summer course, airfare, accommodations, the course cost, etc.; you are looking at well over $1000. It is a question of the level of investment in the hobby, for dealers and collectors over a sizable sum that may make sense not for collectors of $100 coins. There are regional grading courses offered by the grading services or in tandem with major shows, in which case it may make some sense. But this pablum about collectors who make basic mistakes with basic coins needing to travel half way across the country and spend lots and lots of money, that makes no sense.

[RWB]

"But this pablum about collectors who make basic mistakes with basic coins needing to travel half way across the country and spend lots and lots of money, that makes no sense."

 

What an idiotic statement, Nutmeg.

 

Would you prefer that collectors "spend lots and lots of money" on defective, misrepresented, or "genuine" but cracked out coins, instead of a little knowledge?

 

Repeat: Your advocacy of ignorance is astounding!

 

 

[Kurtdog]

Luster, cartwheel...

That's what they're looking for on a girl like this not wearing any makeup. This girl ought to be making you dizzy. They don't see that, those mint flow lines are disturbed, she's cleaned.

[AHFreak]

It makes no sense to tell basic collectors that they need to take the ANA grading course which involves a great deal of expense, travelling to the place it is offered and precious time. For dealers it makes sense not for basic collectors.

 

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. I have easily spent over $15K on my education in the last year and a half (Im not even talking the "lessons learned" through costly mistakes or anything like that. Im talking specific tuition paid to learn/be taught x). Now, for me the education has paid off in multiples I couldn't even begin to calculate... We are talking exponentially.

 

Now in fairness, coins are what I do full time, they are how I earn my living.. I understand you were talking about the "average collector" when you made that statement...and I agree, the average collector has no reason to shell out 10, 20, + thousand dollars for education on coins. But I am absolutely convinced that even for an average collector who lets say spends only a few hundred dollars or more per year on coins over the course of their adult life would be sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better off "INVESTING" 1500 or 2K bucks upfront to attend that grading class for instance at the ANA's summer seminar and/or the equivalent than if they skip all that because it "costs to much" thereby choosing to take the traditional, "school of hard knocks" approach.

 

Nutmeg I respect your opinion, but you are flat out labeling any fees/costs associated with attending ANA's grading an expense... I do not believe it is a cost/expense, I don't think its even close. I personally don't think it should be an option for anyone who is planning on spending any amount of money on coins on any sort of regular basis. I feel like an investment in to an education should be the first major purchase a collector makes.

 

Think about the difference an education like that will make on their future acquisitions... I mean, lets call it (the tuition) 2K. How long does it take even the most minor of collectors to make 2K worth of mistakes? That doesn't even begin to factor in the possible money gained over a few decades by having acquired the "right coins" versus the coins they'd have without that education being a factor... I don't think I or anyone else for that matter could begin to quantify how valuable an education like that would be in terms of dollars and cents spread out over the course of even the least serious collectors lifetime of coin-purchases.

 

If someone came to me and told me they would like to start "investing" in coins, or simply "collecting" as a hobbyist..... Lets say they had $50 or more per month to spend on coins ... THE VERY FIRST THING I WOULD RECOMMEND DOING WOULD BE TO PUT THE MONEY TOGETHER AND GET TO THE GRADING CLASS AT ANA SUMMER SEMINAR!!! MAKE THAT INVESTMENT THE VERY FIRST PRIORITY AS THERE IS NO COIN OR COINS THAT WOULD HAVE GAINS THAT COULD COME ANYWHERE CLOSE TO WHAT THAT EDUCATION WILL BE WORTH OVER THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME.

[Nutmeg Coin]

It makes no sense to tell basic collectors that they need to take the ANA grading course which involves a great deal of expense, travelling to the place it is offered and precious time. For dealers it makes sense not for basic collectors.

 

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. I have easily spent over $15K on my education in the last year and a half (Im not even talking the "lessons learned" through costly mistakes or anything like that. Im talking specific tuition paid to learn/be taught x). Now, for me the education has paid off in multiples I couldn't even begin to calculate... We are talking exponentially.

 

Now in fairness, coins are what I do full time, they are how I earn my living.. I understand you were talking about the "average collector" when you made that statement...and I agree, the average collector has no reason to shell out 10, 20, + thousand dollars for education on coins. But I am absolutely convinced that even for an average collector who lets say spends only a few hundred dollars or more per year on coins over the course of their adult life would be sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better off "INVESTING" 1500 or 2K bucks upfront to attend that grading class for instance at the ANA's summer seminar and/or the equivalent than if they skip all that because it "costs to much" thereby choosing to take the traditional, "school of hard knocks" approach.

 

Nutmeg I respect your opinion, but you are flat out labeling any fees/costs associated with attending ANA's grading an expense... I do not believe it is a cost/expense, I don't think its even close. I personally don't think it should be an option for anyone who is planning on spending any amount of money on coins on any sort of regular basis. I feel like an investment in to an education should be the first major purchase a collector makes.

 

Think about the difference an education like that will make on their future acquisitions... I mean, lets call it (the tuition) 2K. How long does it take even the most minor of collectors to make 2K worth of mistakes? That doesn't even begin to factor in the possible money gained over a few decades by having acquired the "right coins" versus the coins they'd have without that education being a factor... I don't think I or anyone else for that matter could begin to quantify how valuable an education like that would be in terms of dollars and cents spread out over the course of even the least serious collectors lifetime of coin-purchases.

 

If someone came to me and told me they would like to start "investing" in coins, or simply "collecting" as a hobbyist..... Lets say they had $50 or more per month to spend on coins ... THE VERY FIRST THING I WOULD RECOMMEND DOING WOULD BE TO PUT THE MONEY TOGETHER AND GET TO THE GRADING CLASS AT ANA SUMMER SEMINAR!!! MAKE THAT INVESTMENT THE VERY FIRST PRIORITY AS THERE IS NO COIN OR COINS THAT WOULD HAVE GAINS THAT COULD COME ANYWHERE CLOSE TO WHAT THAT EDUCATION WILL BE WORTH OVER THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME.

 

That is an extremely high level of expenditure for the tough grading curve, $15K, plus. Maybe you could share the specifics of this cost in all terms. I don't know any of the coin shop or show dealers in lower New England that have ever spent that kind of money on grading skills. A NY dealer told me he took the PCGS grading course, NGC has their grading seminars. There are all types of online training tutorials and one on one interaction with skilled dealers going over their methods of grading coins and many of them will do this for free.