Break it out or not ?

[benjmurts]

I sent in a high grade Morgan to NGC, it came back improperly cleaned, UNC details. If I wanted to sell it should I crack it out and sell it raw or sell it in the slab?

[coinman_23885]

I sent in a high grade Morgan to NGC, it came back improperly cleaned, UNC details. If I wanted to sell it should I crack it out and sell it raw or sell it in the slab?

 

Does it appear now, after looking back at the coin, that it was in fact cleaned? If so, leave it in the slab and sell as is. Someone will appreciate the nice holder to protect the coin from further damage. If you disagree, it depends. Images would help in that scenario.

[michael]

it all depends

 

without more information

the specific coin and grade and date mintmark combo or variety

and also

a high quality photograph with different angles showing the coin in the holder

 

impossible to say

 

 

[MarkFeld]

That depends upon whether you want to hide the fact that NGC was of the opinion that the coin was cleaned.

[cpm9ball]

Sell it in the slab. There are enough scumbags on SleazeBay already.

 

Chris

[Raisethis2]

 

 

I've found myself in this position as well. If the coin has been obviously cleaned (rubbed on or dipped), leave it in the holder and just eat your losses (if any). If it's salvagable, a crackout is in order.

 

I posted photos of an 1879 Morgan back about 6 months ago that our host indicated was improperly cleaned. From the photo's Yonico (I'm pretty sure it was him) suggested he could see dip residue about the stars and in his opinion a bath in Acetone was called for. I took that advice. The coin just returned from PCGS in an MS 64 holder. I think it's a green or gold bean candidate actually, that's next.

 

The moral to the story is that every cleaned coin isn't necessarily ruined.

[Kurtdog]

I sent in a high grade Morgan to NGC, it came back improperly cleaned, UNC details. If I wanted to sell it should I crack it out and sell it raw or sell it in the slab?

Let's see it, then I'll tell you. All that means is, they don't want it to play in their market, at their price guide, it's not of the quality they're looking for. "Improperly" is but a value judgment based on standards they can't articulate much less are willing to disclose to the public. That's how pretentious, i.e., meaningless, that designation is. It's just a line in the sand they attempt to draw based upon how they happen to be feeling that day. If their wife didn't give them such a hard time, , so much the better for you, that always helps.

[Matt_dac]

What Mark said...

 

This is why I never buy raw. While the top grading companies are not perfect, it is some insurance.

[Kurtdog]

What Mark said...

 

This is why I never buy raw. While the top grading companies are not perfect, it is some insurance.

If I were a top grading company, I think I'm loving you.

[Hurricane4911-migration]

See a picture.

Pay good money up-front to a person you've never met.

Only then, do you get to hold the coin in-hand.

 

When I kick-started my coin hobby after a 30 year hiatus, Back then, grading was subjective. I sent some of what I thought were my best coins to NGC for grading and was disappointed by how many were "improperly cleaned". Over time, I sold each and every one in it's slab with full disclosure.

 

There are many collectors who are happy buy "improperly" cleaned coins. You can save money, and to the buyer, it might not be that important.

 

If you are willing to go and pay for the conservation route, it might be possible a second grading will be thumbs up, and that IMHO is OK.

 

I received less than I expected, but that's the price we all pay for buying raw coins. I would leave it in the slab and sell disclosing as much as possible about the state of the coin and any residue.

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

 

I've found myself in this position as well. If the coin has been obviously cleaned (rubbed on or dipped), leave it in the holder and just eat your losses (if any). If it's salvagable, a crackout is in order.

 

I posted photos of an 1879 Morgan back about 6 months ago that our host indicated was improperly cleaned. From the photo's Yonico (I'm pretty sure it was him) suggested he could see dip residue about the stars and in his opinion a bath in Acetone was called for. I took that advice. The coin just returned from PCGS in an MS 64 holder. I think it's a green or gold bean candidate actually, that's next.

 

The moral to the story is that every cleaned coin isn't necessarily ruined.

 

That's just it, it is impossible to judge the issue without images, and another reason why sellers of raw coins should have some responsibility for coins that they claimed were high grade and ended up in unsaleable purple holders. Contact the person who sold it to you as high grade and report the response.

[MarkFeld]

A couple of posters have mentioned images as a possible way to help make a determination. And, while that can help on occasion, often, images fail to show the problem.

 

Given a choice between the sight seen opinion of a grading company or a poster's opinion, based upon images, I'll take the former.

[tenacious]

Sell it in the slab. There are enough scumbags on SleazeBay already.

 

Chris

 

That was my first thought also.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Sell it in the slab. There are enough scumbags on SleazeBay already.

 

Chris

 

That was my first thought also.

 

That is really an abusive and libelous statement as there are many excellent buyers and sellers on ebay, there is rigorous quality control in the ebay system.

 

Be careful when you point the finger as there are four fingers usually pointing back at you.

[MarkFeld]

Sell it in the slab. There are enough scumbags on SleazeBay already.

 

Chris

 

That was my first thought also.

 

That is really an abusive and libelous statement as there are many excellent buyers and sellers on ebay, there is rigorous quality control in the ebay system.

 

Be careful when you point the finger as there are four fingers usually pointing back at you.

 

There ARE enough scumbags on Ebay. I don't think the statement was libelous or abusive.

[Raisethis2]

 

 

Oddly enough, I just sold a coin Wednesday to a man on E-Bay with a feedback score of (1). I took the opportunity to write a short letter welcoming him and went on to describe what I think a good E-Bay seller looks like as well as those who probably don't deserve his business.

 

Most of it is common sense and driven by great pictures, better descriptions and always...........a return policy. The occasional cleaned coin might get through from even the best sellers but as a rule, those with high feedback scores usually aren't doing too much wrong.

 

Like anything else, it's buyer beware.

[okbustchaser]

Sell it in the slab. There are enough scumbags on SleazeBay already.

 

Chris

 

That was my first thought also.

 

That is really an abusive and libelous statement as there are many excellent buyers and sellers on ebay, there is rigorous quality control in the ebay system.

 

Be careful when you point the finger as there are four fingers usually pointing back at you.

 

There ARE enough scumbags on Ebay. I don't think the statement was libelous or abusive.

 

By the same token, cracking out a coin and then selling it as raw does not automatically equal scumbag. It may very well mean a seller doesn't agree with the label. It may also mean--just as it would if I were to sell coins on Ebay--that the seller simply doesn't like slabs and cracks out ALL his coins regardless of the label.

 

Once a coin is cracked out of a TPG holder the opinion of that grading company is irrelevant. Just because NGC claimed at some time in the past that a coin had been cleaned no longer counts any more than I can claim that my coin which at one time was in a PCGS MS 63 holder is still a PCGS 63 after cracking it. Raw coins are exactly that--RAW! Regardless of whether or not they had at one time or another been submitted to third party review.

[MarkFeld]

Sell it in the slab. There are enough scumbags on SleazeBay already.

 

Chris

 

That was my first thought also.

 

That is really an abusive and libelous statement as there are many excellent buyers and sellers on ebay, there is rigorous quality control in the ebay system.

 

Be careful when you point the finger as there are four fingers usually pointing back at you.

 

There ARE enough scumbags on Ebay. I don't think the statement was libelous or abusive.

 

By the same token, cracking out a coin and then selling it as raw does not automatically equal scumbag. It may very well mean a seller doesn't agree with the label. It may also mean--just as it would if I were to sell coins on Ebay--that the seller simply doesn't like slabs and cracks out ALL his coins regardless of the label.

 

Once a coin is cracked out of a TPG holder the opinion of that grading company is irrelevant. Just because NGC claimed at some time in the past that a coin had been cleaned no longer counts any more than I can claim that my coin which at one time was in a PCGS MS 63 holder is still a PCGS 63 after cracking it. Raw coins are exactly that--RAW! Regardless of whether or not they had at one time or another been submitted to third party review.

 

I disagree that cracking a coin out of a holder makes the grading company's opinion irrelevant. It just means that the coin is no longer in the holder and has lost whatever backing it might have had from the grading company.

[okbustchaser]

So I can claim that my coin is still a PCGS MS 63? Cool, all these years people have been telling me that it was crazy to crack out my coins.

[MarkFeld]

So I can claim that my coin is still a PCGS MS 63? Cool, all these years people have been telling me that it was crazy to crack out my coins.

 

You can claim whatever you want, but that's not the same thing as saying that the previous grade was relevant.There was no need for the sarcasm.

 

If you as a seller crack out a bunch of MS63 coins and offer them as MS68's, you are "grading" to a very different standard than the grading company. I believe that most people would consider that (and the prior grades) quite relevant.

[okbustchaser]

No sarcasm meant (well, maybe a little absurdity).

 

Either the prior opinion carries over to the raw coin or it doesn't. It makes no difference whether that prior opinion was positive (coin is MS 63) or negative (coin is cleaned).

 

It's my opinion that it doesn't carry over.

[cpm9ball]

Sell it in the slab. There are enough scumbags on SleazeBay already.

 

Chris

 

That was my first thought also.

 

That is really an abusive and libelous statement as there are many excellent buyers and sellers on ebay, there is rigorous quality control in the ebay system.

 

Be careful when you point the finger as there are four fingers usually pointing back at you.

 

It is neither libelous nor abusive. I have not singled out any one individual. The good buyers and sellers KNOW who they are!

 

As for SleazeBay's "rigorous quality control" (and I use that term very loosely) are you aware that they have done away with their reporting system for questionable listings? Is it because they are perfect? I doubt it! Or, is it because they can't afford to maintain a staff to handle the reports? Yeah, this is probably it because it increases their profit margin.

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

Sell it in the slab. There are enough scumbags on SleazeBay already.

 

Chris

 

That was my first thought also.

 

That is really an abusive and libelous statement as there are many excellent buyers and sellers on ebay, there is rigorous quality control in the ebay system.

 

Be careful when you point the finger as there are four fingers usually pointing back at you.

 

There ARE enough scumbags on Ebay. I don't think the statement was libelous or abusive.

 

By the same token, cracking out a coin and then selling it as raw does not automatically equal scumbag. It may very well mean a seller doesn't agree with the label. It may also mean--just as it would if I were to sell coins on Ebay--that the seller simply doesn't like slabs and cracks out ALL his coins regardless of the label.

 

Once a coin is cracked out of a TPG holder the opinion of that grading company is irrelevant. Just because NGC claimed at some time in the past that a coin had been cleaned no longer counts any more than I can claim that my coin which at one time was in a PCGS MS 63 holder is still a PCGS 63 after cracking it. Raw coins are exactly that--RAW! Regardless of whether or not they had at one time or another been submitted to third party review.

 

If a seller doesn't agree with the label, then why wouldn't he just leave it in the slab and express his opinion in the listing? Let the buyer have the option of cracking it out for resubmission or review.

 

I'm with Mark. Cracking out a coin doesn't negate the TPG decision. It merely hides it from the buyer.

 

Chris

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Sell it in the slab. There are enough scumbags on SleazeBay already.

 

Chris

 

That was my first thought also.

 

That is really an abusive and libelous statement as there are many excellent buyers and sellers on ebay, there is rigorous quality control in the ebay system.

 

Be careful when you point the finger as there are four fingers usually pointing back at you.

 

There ARE enough scumbags on Ebay. I don't think the statement was libelous or abusive.

 

By the same token, cracking out a coin and then selling it as raw does not automatically equal scumbag. It may very well mean a seller doesn't agree with the label. It may also mean--just as it would if I were to sell coins on Ebay--that the seller simply doesn't like slabs and cracks out ALL his coins regardless of the label.

 

Once a coin is cracked out of a TPG holder the opinion of that grading company is irrelevant. Just because NGC claimed at some time in the past that a coin had been cleaned no longer counts any more than I can claim that my coin which at one time was in a PCGS MS 63 holder is still a PCGS 63 after cracking it. Raw coins are exactly that--RAW! Regardless of whether or not they had at one time or another been submitted to third party review.

 

You have logical points.

 

However, in the situation being discussed, I think a review of the OP statement and question is important. He stated it came back X. He asks if he wants to sell it, should he crack it out or not. He does not state that he disagrees with the opinion. He does not state he is definitely keeping the coin. he does not state he is going to submit the coin again, to ant TPG.

 

He wants advice on selling the coin raw or cracked out.

 

It certainly is deserving of receiving a moral observation as an answer.

 

Lets not expand this scenario, and all the comments, to having the scenario apply to each and every dilemma of this type.

[okbustchaser]

By the same token, cracking out a coin and then selling it as raw does not automatically equal scumbag. It may very well mean a seller doesn't agree with the label. It may also mean--just as it would if I were to sell coins on Ebay--that the seller simply doesn't like slabs and cracks out ALL his coins regardless of the label.

 

Once a coin is cracked out of a TPG holder the opinion of that grading company is irrelevant. Just because NGC claimed at some time in the past that a coin had been cleaned no longer counts any more than I can claim that my coin which at one time was in a PCGS MS 63 holder is still a PCGS 63 after cracking it. Raw coins are exactly that--RAW! Regardless of whether or not they had at one time or another been submitted to third party review.

 

You have logical points.

 

However, in the situation being discussed, I think a review of the OP statement and question is important. He stated it came back X. He asks if he wants to sell it, should he crack it out or not. He does not state that he disagrees with the opinion. He does not state he is definitely keeping the coin. he does not state he is going to submit the coin again, to ant TPG.

 

He wants advice on selling the coin raw or cracked out.

 

It certainly is deserving of receiving a moral observation as an answer.

 

Lets not expand this scenario, and all the comments, to having the scenario apply to each and every dilemma of this type.

 

You're right, he does, and I failed to give him an answer--something that actually drives me a little batty when done to me. My apologies.

 

To the OP, it is a fact of life that there are many coins in ALL companies holders which state that they are cleaned that would if resubmitted come back with a straight grade. The opposite is also true. It therefore comes down to "Do you as the owner of the coin believe that it has been cleaned?". If so, leave it in the holder and sell as is. If not, crack it out and either resubmit it or sell it raw--with, IMO, no disclosure necessary as the old label no longer is relevant. But, only you can make this decision.

 

The only scumbag decision would be if you cracked it out and sold it without the disclosure that you YOURSELF thought that it had a problem.

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

By the same token, cracking out a coin and then selling it as raw does not automatically equal scumbag. It may very well mean a seller doesn't agree with the label. It may also mean--just as it would if I were to sell coins on Ebay--that the seller simply doesn't like slabs and cracks out ALL his coins regardless of the label.

 

Once a coin is cracked out of a TPG holder the opinion of that grading company is irrelevant. Just because NGC claimed at some time in the past that a coin had been cleaned no longer counts any more than I can claim that my coin which at one time was in a PCGS MS 63 holder is still a PCGS 63 after cracking it. Raw coins are exactly that--RAW! Regardless of whether or not they had at one time or another been submitted to third party review.

 

You have logical points.

 

However, in the situation being discussed, I think a review of the OP statement and question is important. He stated it came back X. He asks if he wants to sell it, should he crack it out or not. He does not state that he disagrees with the opinion. He does not state he is definitely keeping the coin. he does not state he is going to submit the coin again, to ant TPG.

 

He wants advice on selling the coin raw or cracked out.

 

It certainly is deserving of receiving a moral observation as an answer.

 

Lets not expand this scenario, and all the comments, to having the scenario apply to each and every dilemma of this type.

 

You're right, he does, and I failed to give him an answer--something that actually drives me a little batty when done to me. My apologies.

 

To the OP, it is a fact of life that there are many coins in ALL companies holders which state that they are cleaned that would if resubmitted come back with a straight grade. The opposite is also true. It therefore comes down to "Do you as the owner of the coin believe that it has been cleaned?". If so, leave it in the holder and sell as is. If not, crack it out and either resubmit it or sell it raw--with, IMO, no disclosure necessary as the old label no longer is relevant. But, only you can make this decision.

 

The only scumbag decision would be if you cracked it out and sold it without the disclosure that you YOURSELF thought that it had a problem.

 

 

This is a very good and honorable answer, and very logical.

[Afterword]

I would think that a buyer would want all available relevant knowledge pertaining to the coin disclosed, as that knowledge would benefit their endeavor to evaluate said coin - particularly the knowledge of coin evaluating experts such as TPGs and CAC.

 

What reason is there to withhold such knowledge?

 

[Kurtdog]

By the same token, cracking out a coin and then selling it as raw does not automatically equal scumbag. It may very well mean a seller doesn't agree with the label. It may also mean--just as it would if I were to sell coins on Ebay--that the seller simply doesn't like slabs and cracks out ALL his coins regardless of the label.

 

Once a coin is cracked out of a TPG holder the opinion of that grading company is irrelevant. Just because NGC claimed at some time in the past that a coin had been cleaned no longer counts any more than I can claim that my coin which at one time was in a PCGS MS 63 holder is still a PCGS 63 after cracking it. Raw coins are exactly that--RAW! Regardless of whether or not they had at one time or another been submitted to third party review.

You have logical points.

 

However, in the situation being discussed, I think a review of the OP statement and question is important. He stated it came back X. He asks if he wants to sell it, should he crack it out or not. He does not state that he disagrees with the opinion. He does not state he is definitely keeping the coin. he does not state he is going to submit the coin again, to ant TPG.

 

He wants advice on selling the coin raw or cracked out.

 

It certainly is deserving of receiving a moral observation as an answer.

 

Lets not expand this scenario, and all the comments, to having the scenario apply to each and every dilemma of this type.

 

You're right, he does, and I failed to give him an answer--something that actually drives me a little batty when done to me. My apologies.

 

To the OP, it is a fact of life that there are many coins in ALL companies holders which state that they are cleaned that would if resubmitted come back with a straight grade. The opposite is also true. It therefore comes down to "Do you as the owner of the coin believe that it has been cleaned?". If so, leave it in the holder and sell as is. If not, crack it out and either resubmit it or sell it raw--with, IMO, no disclosure necessary as the old label no longer is relevant. But, only you can make this decision.

 

The only scumbag decision would be if you cracked it out and sold it without the disclosure that you YOURSELF thought that it had a problem.

This is a very good and honorable answer, and very logical.

Like 2+2=4, right? It's nice to live in such a simple world. The reality is, it's not that easy, as the question you're asking is, "Is it improperly cleaned?" Maybe they say it is, and you say it isn't. That's a big grey area, there. It's "conserved." Yeah, that's what it is. There's another issue, too. It's that the odds are these days that buyer is going to submit that raw coin when he gets it. As the seller, you "know" that, going into the sale. It comes back "improperly cleaned." I'm that buyer, I better not find out you knew. I don't think I'm going to like that a lot.

 

No, I think it's stuck in that holder. If you're ethical, I'd think it has to be.

[cpm9ball]

There's another issue, too. It's that the odds are these days that buyer is going to submit that raw coin when he gets it. As the seller, you "know" that, going into the sale. It comes back "improperly cleaned." I'm that buyer, I better not find out you knew. I don't think I'm going to like that a lot.

 

No, I think it's stuck in that holder. If you're ethical, I'd think it has to be.

 

Amen to that!

 

Chris

 

[AHFreak]

In case there aren't already enough opinions on this thread.. Here is one more.

 

 

First of all, we are talking about a coin that is "improperly cleaned", not artificial color, questionable color, or something that leaves open very much room for interpretation.... improperly cleaned usually comes down to someone took an abrasive material to the surface of the coin (be it a rag, a broom, a hand-made camel-hair brush, or a brillo pad...). regardless as to what was used, there are going to be tell-tell signs of a "harsh" cleaning more often than not... I believe its hard for 3PG to get that wrong. (unless its a matter of die-polish marks, versus scratches/hairlines.... which I believe I have seen before.).

 

So, no matter how someone wants to dress it up, the bottom line is that an "improperly cleaned" is fairly straight forward in my experience.

 

The other thing, is that I have made my living buying/selling on Ebay for over a year now.

 

It is very true, there are an abundance of less than honest coin-sellers on Ebay... there are an abundance of over-graded coins that get dumped on Ebay.... Just because someone points that out, doesn't mean that they are condemning ALL SELLERS, or ALL COINS! I have a perfect feedback history, just passed 1100 feedbacks, Ive never had a neg feedback... (have had 2 "neutral" ratings.... for the record). So, I consider myself one of the "good guys" on Ebay. I'll be the first to say that one must navigate through the coins/sellers with care and caution.

 

I feel like it is just like dealers at coin shops... Everyone says, "get to know a dealer you can trust" "find a dealer you can trust and work with that dealer" and stuff like that.... I find that Ebay is the exact same way.... I have a handful who I trust 100%, I trust their description, I trust their pics, and I trust that when they hit me up and say "hey, I found what you are looking for" I can say, "send it" without worrying about it....

 

I personally have found Ebay to be an incredibly valuable tool/resource and would not be anywhere close to where I am without it. You just got to use a little tiny bit of common sense and caution just like at the local coin shop you walk into for the first time, or the coin show where you deal with a dealer for the very first time...

 

 

I think you should leave the coin in the holder.. Even though at the end of the day, I would like to say it doesn't matter cause a buyer should/would know the difference regardless. We all know that 2nd part about knowing the difference simply isn't true...

 

 

Just my Opinion.