For those of you don't think that the NGC - CAC grade combination means much ...

[BillJones]

The summer FUN auction that was run by Heritage included a nice collection of gold dollars. The key dates were in EF and AU, which was right down my ally, so I decided to see if I could finish my Type I gold dollar set. I got close.

 

The coin that stopped me was the 1852-P, which is one of the more common dates in the set. The piece I selected was in an NGC MS-65, CAC holder. The PCGS Coin Facts price guide says this coin is worth $4,350 so I bid $3,500 which works out to $4,112.50. The NGC price guide said the coin is worth $3,940. For those who might think that the Gray Sheet has any relevance to these auctions, the price there for an MS-65 graded 1852 gold dollar is $2,900.

 

This coin was a nice MS-65, but it was not super-duper. There was some die erosion on the reverse which caused some of the dentiles to fade and some microscopic roughness that was only visible with a 10X glass. This was noted in the auction description, and it was strictly due to the condition of dies that struck the coin. It was not bad, but it was there. When you get up to MS-65 and higher, you look at stuff like this.

 

I figured that I had a reasonable shot at the coin.

 

Ha Ha !!

 

The hammer price was $4,700 which works out to $5,522.50 with the buyer's fee. I could have bought a PCGS MS-66 graded example on the bourse floor for $7,000, which seemed like a better value to me. But I really don't want to have $7 grand in an 1852 gold dollar, thank you.

 

So I have one coin, a common date, to finish my gold dollar set.

 

So I guess the moral is the NGC - CAC combination means more than PCGS - CAC cheerleaders ATS think it does. It certainly did in this case. To me the coin brought a runaway price.

 

[Coinbuf]

I dare you to post this ATS haha. Of course you do realize that even if you did post this over there that the kool-aid fan-boys would only say that this was one of the exceptions and that the coin will certainly make it's way into their idea of the correct holder soon enough.

[BillJones]

I dare you to post this ATS haha.

 

On another day I might have, but the censors over there are on a hot streak. Today they locked a thread that was going though aspects of CAC, and they got piqued at it. They were being strict about the rule not to mention other grading services. Usually they don't have fit about it, but today they did.

 

You learn not poke the lion in the ribs or tug on Superman's cape when they are restless.

[coinman_23885]

Today they locked a thread that was going though aspects of CAC, and they got piqued at it. They were being strict about the rule not to mention other grading services. Usually they don't have fit about it, but today they did.

 

I thought Don Willis was acting childish in having the thread locked, and he seemed a bit defensive, regardless of whether that was his intent or not, with his comment that he "respect JA and do[es] not think that his opinions have hurt PCGS in any way. Actually they have confirmed the quality and consistency of PCGS grading." It's a coin forum, and they seriously expect that people aren't going to want to discuss a major player in the rare coin market?

[coinman_23885]

The hammer price was $4,700 which works out to $5,522.50 with the buyer's fee. I could have bought a PCGS MS-66 graded example on the bourse floor for $7,000, which seemed like a better value to me. But I really don't want to have $7 grand in an 1852 gold dollar, thank you.

 

So I have one coin, a common date, to finish my gold dollar set.

 

So I guess the moral is the NGC - CAC combination means more than PCGS - CAC cheerleaders ATS think it does. It certainly did in this case. To me the coin brought a runaway price.

 

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought JA even mentioned somewhere that premiums paid by some was getting to be a bit extreme for the so called "A" grade coins.

[brg5658]

Today they locked a thread that was going though aspects of CAC, and they got piqued at it. They were being strict about the rule not to mention other grading services. Usually they don't have fit about it, but today they did.

 

I thought Don Willis was acting childish in having the thread locked, and he seemed a bit defensive, regardless of whether that was his intent or not, with his comment that he "respect JA and do[es] not think that his opinions have hurt PCGS in any way. Actually they have confirmed the quality and consistency of PCGS grading." It's a coin forum, and they seriously expect that people aren't going to want to discuss a major player in the rare coin market?

 

The thread ATS was one of the tamest I have read there in a while. The "locking" of the thread made no sense to me.

[Walkerfan]

I'll buy a NGC/CAC graded PQ example coin for a premium any day of the week and twice on Sundays. I have seen them go for a lot of $$$ many times before.

[jom]

The hammer price was $4,700 which works out to $5,522.50 with the buyer's fee. I could have bought a PCGS MS-66 graded example on the bourse floor for $7,000, which seemed like a better value to me. But I really don't want to have $7 grand in an 1852 gold dollar, thank you.

 

So I have one coin, a common date, to finish my gold dollar set.

 

So I guess the moral is the NGC - CAC combination means more than PCGS - CAC cheerleaders ATS think it does. It certainly did in this case. To me the coin brought a runaway price.

 

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought JA even mentioned somewhere that premiums paid by some was getting to be a bit extreme for the so called "A" grade coins.

 

It certainly isn't CAC that does this as JA is a pretty low key guy. The facts are it is the MARKET that overreacts to these stuff.....and if you think that is bad look how it reacts to gold stickered coins. Some months ago I spoke to each of you guys separately about a certain 1809/8 half eagle that resided in a gold stickered slab. The price eventually paid for that coin was truly "amazing".

 

In a market that highly values Black Slab NGC coins and "doily" holders can you really expect anything different?

 

jom

[O mint bug]

Nice post I think once you get into the AU 55 and above the grading service has little effect. It is the coin not the holder. Read any book written by a high end collector and they repeat the same thing, which makes sense given you paid a high price for the coin not the holder. Not all AU 55 1852s bring the same money as the higher end collector is smart enough to buy what is in the holder. If it were a science resubmissions would not inflate the pop report as they would be a frugal effort. High end coins trade at prices well above the grey sheet and red book. Knowing how to grade you coins is key and can save you a lot of money.

 

In David bowers book he mentions a dealer he knows had a MS 1916 D merc dime and resubmitted it 25 times before it went from 54 to 65. I have seen coins in both NGC holders that just did not belong there. Like democracy coin grading is a terrible way to determine grade and therefore a starting place for value but it is the best thing we have.

 

I collect type one O mint DEs. I only wish I could post I just bought the coin that completed my set but it may well not happen as the 54 and 56 O are very difficult but usually in a Heritage auction. Its the 55, 59 and 1860 that are really tough to find.

 

Good job on completing your set. Your kids and grandkids will love you for it.

[MarkFeld]

Nice post I think once you get into the AU 55 and above the grading service has little effect...

I wish I could agree with that. But sadly, I strongly disagree. I believe that often, the grading service has a dramatic effect on price. It can be seen in direct sales, as well as in auctions. The latter includes cases where the identical coin sells for far more in one holder than it did previously in the other.

[$ilverHawk]

Nice post I think once you get into the AU 55 and above the grading service has little effect...

I wish I could agree with that. But sadly, I strongly disagree. I believe that often, the grading service has a dramatic effect on price. It can be seen in direct sales, as well as in auctions. The latter includes cases where the identical coin sells for far more in one holder than it did previously in the other.

 

I agree, sadly market forces have intruded into the integrity of coin grading. Let me explain. If you examine sales and auction records, PCGS holdered coins, on average sell for higher values than the same graded coins in other holders. The CAC sticker also results in higher value sales/auction results.

 

What I have found when examining coins for purchase for my collections ( Walkers and CBH's) is that as a collector, I sometimes prefer the NGC coin over the identically graded PCGS coin even though the PCGS coin sells at a higher market value. Hey, it's a better coin. I have often "scratched my head" trying to understand why in the world a certain coin sold for a certain price when a better coin in a different holder sold for a lower price and the reason is market forces.

 

The current market in most series is definitely slanted towards PCGS graded coins. Sad but that is the reality.

 

IMO the grade of a coin has become secondary to the marketing of the coin. Let me repeat that, the grade of a coin has become secondary to the marketing of the coin. As a collector, that is very sad.

 

Carl

[FishyOne]

This thread was an interesting read. Thanks to all who posted!

[MJ]

NGC coins better have a CAC sticker or you are faced with a hope for the best scenario if they don't……… Rejected coins are not quite kicked to the curb but heading in that direction. Discounting for sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,MJ

[Raisethis2]

I agree that many NGC graded coins sell at a discount over the same PCGS graded example. The Coin Dealer News even prints a version illustrating some of the differences from what I understand.

 

I think what this suggests is that Dealers either have this preconceived notion that PCGS is actually a better grading service or.......NGC has been doing an admirable job also but just gets less respect. I never have any qualms about buying NGC graded coins. Getting them at a discount, especially from a Dealer is (almost) impossible.

 

In a Dealers case the coins carry much he same pricing. At auction they don't.

[Nutmeg Coin]

What are the current statistics on PCGS vs. NGC CAC success? Last I saw the results were pretty comparable. And when you get over MS65 CAC approval rates go up significantly. Just try running a thread over at the PCGS forum on overgraded PCGS coins and see how long it lasts, like a block of ice in a geyser.

[BillJones]

I never have any qualms about buying NGC graded coins. Getting them at a discount, especially from a Dealer is (almost) impossible.

 

 

Have you found this to be true at the major shows? I haven't. I've bought a number of NGC graded coins in the same grade as their PCGS counterparts for less money. When I was looking to upgrade my Liberty $2.50 the dealer had a large stock of these coins from which to choose. In MS-67 the NGC coins were priced a few hundred dollars less across the board. Here is the piece I selected which was just as good as the PCGS graded coins.

 

[brg5658]

NGC coins better have a CAC sticker or you are faced with a hope for the best scenario if they don't……… Rejected coins are not quite kicked to the curb but heading in that direction. Discounting for sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,MJ

 

What's sad is that you are actually serious in this post I think.

 

As MarkFeld mentioned, there have been examples of the exact same coin in the exact same grade but in different brands of plastic that sell at very different prices. That price difference is clearly no longer a function of the coin and is all about the perception of the buyers.

 

With regard to your "rejected coins" comment -- CAC doesn't in any way tell you which coins are rejected, so there is no way of knowing whether a coin has ever been submitted to CAC unless 1) it has a sticker or 2) someone specifically tells you it didn't pass CAC. If you're willing to just ignore all other coins in NGC holders, then good -- that leaves a lot of nice coins for those of us who couldn't care less about the little holographic bean.

 

 

[MJ]

NGC coins better have a CAC sticker or you are faced with a hope for the best scenario if they don't……… Rejected coins are not quite kicked to the curb but heading in that direction. Discounting for sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,MJ

 

What's sad is that you are actually serious in this post I think.

 

As MarkFeld mentioned, there have been examples of the exact same coin in the exact same grade but in different brands of plastic that sell at very different prices. That price difference is clearly no longer a function of the coin and is all about the perception of the buyers.

 

With regard to your "rejected coins" comment -- CAC doesn't in any way tell you which coins are rejected, so there is no way of knowing whether a coin has ever been submitted to CAC unless 1) it has a sticker or 2) someone specifically tells you it didn't pass CAC. If you're willing to just ignore all other coins in NGC holders, then good -- that leaves a lot of nice coins for those of us who couldn't care less about the little holographic bean.

 

 

It just becomes math after awhile. Nothing more.

 

1) PCGS coins garner higher prices then NGC on like coins

 

2) PCGS/CAC coins garner the highest prices

 

3) NGC/CAC coins trade at a premium over NGC non stickers coins and comparable to like PCGS non stickered coins in a lot of cases

 

4) NGC non stickered coins are treated like red headed step children in a lot of series. Can you find value there? Sure? However, you are alway likely to find a lot of over grade coins. With PCGS coins trading for more it makes sense to cross the best coins into PCGS plastic. That is why PCGS has no problems crossing over the best NGC coins. Math. A lot collectors THINK they know how to grade. Thinking and knowing are two different things especially when it comes down to how the services grade. Knowing how the services grade becomes way more valuable then a collector using their own perceived methodology. Nobody cares about that.

 

5) No CAC doesn't tell you which NGC coins didn't sticker BUT there is a market perception of throwing out the baby with the bath water. If it ain't stickered I wonder why mentality. I've seen it. Also, I know a lot of collectors that will sell their NGC coins that didn't sticker into auctions or cross into PCGS at the next lower grade. Math.

 

MJ

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I understand your points.

 

I don't have a market perception opinion, and don't concern myself with it to much.

 

I would like to comment on #4 though.

 

Collectors that think they know how to grade being different from knowing how to grade, while a valid comment, elevates grading from opinion to fact, with only one correct finite method for any and all coins. Adding a caveat about how the Services grade, indicating that a person with an opinion even if the person knows how to grade doesn't matter because a person must know how the Service grades, seems counter productive to learning, and establishes TPG grading as the only factual method because the TPG opinion is not an opinion it is fact.

 

I am not of the School of Agreement that only the TPG Service is infallible and all other Grading is perceived Methodology without substance or importance.

[coinsbygary]

Hmm... Here's a little math I can get my arms around. Let's say there are two MS-65 Mercury Dimes with similar surface conditions. For example, let's just say they're both blast white with plenty of luster. The one coin is in a CAC stickered NGC holder and the other in a CAC stickered PCGS holder. Considering that CAC is impartial to the holder and the market perceives the NGC holdered coin to be less valuable, I'm buying the NGC coin every time.

 

One of the things that might be a market factor is the PCGS registry that only allows PCGS coins. I believe that this increases the demand for PCGS coins thus causing them to be more valuable. This is the number one reason I participate in the NGC registry, because NGC allows coins from both services. This in essence gives me a much broader number of coins to choose from for my registry sets. I consider this a win/win situation for me.

Gary

[Coinbuf]

NGC coins better have a CAC sticker or you are faced with a hope for the best scenario if they don't……… Rejected coins are not quite kicked to the curb but heading in that direction. Discounting for sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,MJ

 

What's sad is that you are actually serious in this post I think.

 

As MarkFeld mentioned, there have been examples of the exact same coin in the exact same grade but in different brands of plastic that sell at very different prices. That price difference is clearly no longer a function of the coin and is all about the perception of the buyers.

 

With regard to your "rejected coins" comment -- CAC doesn't in any way tell you which coins are rejected, so there is no way of knowing whether a coin has ever been submitted to CAC unless 1) it has a sticker or 2) someone specifically tells you it didn't pass CAC. If you're willing to just ignore all other coins in NGC holders, then good -- that leaves a lot of nice coins for those of us who couldn't care less about the little holographic bean.

 

 

It just becomes math after awhile. Nothing more.

 

1) PCGS coins garner higher prices then NGC on like coins

 

2) PCGS/CAC coins garner the highest prices

 

3) NGC/CAC coins trade at a premium over NGC non stickers coins and comparable to like PCGS non stickered coins in a lot of cases

 

4) NGC non stickered coins are treated like red headed step children in a lot of series. Can you find value there? Sure? However, you are alway likely to find a lot of over grade coins. With PCGS coins trading for more it makes sense to cross the best coins into PCGS plastic. That is why PCGS has no problems crossing over the best NGC coins. Math. A lot collectors THINK they know how to grade. Thinking and knowing are two different things especially when it comes down to how the services grade. Knowing how the services grade becomes way more valuable then a collector using their own perceived methodology. Nobody cares about that.

 

5) No CAC doesn't tell you which NGC coins didn't sticker BUT there is a market perception of throwing out the baby with the bath water. If it ain't stickered I wonder why mentality. I've seen it. Also, I know a lot of collectors that will sell their NGC coins that didn't sticker into auctions or cross into PCGS at the next lower grade. Math.

 

MJ

 

Geez I come over here to get away from the kool-aid

[MJ]

NGC coins better have a CAC sticker or you are faced with a hope for the best scenario if they don't……… Rejected coins are not quite kicked to the curb but heading in that direction. Discounting for sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,MJ

 

What's sad is that you are actually serious in this post I think.

 

As MarkFeld mentioned, there have been examples of the exact same coin in the exact same grade but in different brands of plastic that sell at very different prices. That price difference is clearly no longer a function of the coin and is all about the perception of the buyers.

 

With regard to your "rejected coins" comment -- CAC doesn't in any way tell you which coins are rejected, so there is no way of knowing whether a coin has ever been submitted to CAC unless 1) it has a sticker or 2) someone specifically tells you it didn't pass CAC. If you're willing to just ignore all other coins in NGC holders, then good -- that leaves a lot of nice coins for those of us who couldn't care less about the little holographic bean.

 

 

It just becomes math after awhile. Nothing more.

 

1) PCGS coins garner higher prices then NGC on like coins

 

2) PCGS/CAC coins garner the highest prices

 

3) NGC/CAC coins trade at a premium over NGC non stickers coins and comparable to like PCGS non stickered coins in a lot of cases

 

4) NGC non stickered coins are treated like red headed step children in a lot of series. Can you find value there? Sure? However, you are alway likely to find a lot of over grade coins. With PCGS coins trading for more it makes sense to cross the best coins into PCGS plastic. That is why PCGS has no problems crossing over the best NGC coins. Math. A lot collectors THINK they know how to grade. Thinking and knowing are two different things especially when it comes down to how the services grade. Knowing how the services grade becomes way more valuable then a collector using their own perceived methodology. Nobody cares about that.

 

5) No CAC doesn't tell you which NGC coins didn't sticker BUT there is a market perception of throwing out the baby with the bath water. If it ain't stickered I wonder why mentality. I've seen it. Also, I know a lot of collectors that will sell their NGC coins that didn't sticker into auctions or cross into PCGS at the next lower grade. Math.

 

MJ

 

Geez I come over here to get away from the kool-aid

 

Kool-aid is best served chilled with an open mind. Perception is reality. Of course there is hard evidence to this as well. It's all there but too each is own.

 

FYI I love the value in a lot NGC stickered coins.

 

MJ

[MarkFeld]

NGC coins better have a CAC sticker or you are faced with a hope for the best scenario if they don't……… Rejected coins are not quite kicked to the curb but heading in that direction. Discounting for sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,MJ

 

What's sad is that you are actually serious in this post I think.

 

As MarkFeld mentioned, there have been examples of the exact same coin in the exact same grade but in different brands of plastic that sell at very different prices. That price difference is clearly no longer a function of the coin and is all about the perception of the buyers.

 

With regard to your "rejected coins" comment -- CAC doesn't in any way tell you which coins are rejected, so there is no way of knowing whether a coin has ever been submitted to CAC unless 1) it has a sticker or 2) someone specifically tells you it didn't pass CAC. If you're willing to just ignore all other coins in NGC holders, then good -- that leaves a lot of nice coins for those of us who couldn't care less about the little holographic bean.

 

 

It just becomes math after awhile. Nothing more.

 

1) PCGS coins garner higher prices then NGC on like coins

 

2) PCGS/CAC coins garner the highest prices

 

3) NGC/CAC coins trade at a premium over NGC non stickers coins and comparable to like PCGS non stickered coins in a lot of cases

 

4) NGC non stickered coins are treated like red headed step children in a lot of series. Can you find value there? Sure? However, you are alway likely to find a lot of over grade coins. With PCGS coins trading for more it makes sense to cross the best coins into PCGS plastic. That is why PCGS has no problems crossing over the best NGC coins. Math. A lot collectors THINK they know how to grade. Thinking and knowing are two different things especially when it comes down to how the services grade. Knowing how the services grade becomes way more valuable then a collector using their own perceived methodology. Nobody cares about that.

 

5) No CAC doesn't tell you which NGC coins didn't sticker BUT there is a market perception of throwing out the baby with the bath water. If it ain't stickered I wonder why mentality. I've seen it. Also, I know a lot of collectors that will sell their NGC coins that didn't sticker into auctions or cross into PCGS at the next lower grade. Math.

 

MJ

 

Geez I come over here to get away from the kool-aid

 

He is not a kool-aid drinker, but rather, a realist, with a great deal of experience and a keen eye.

[BillJones]

He is not a kool-aid drinker, but rather, a realist, with a great deal of experience and a keen eye.

 

He is a perceptive market observer, but that does not say that he is correct in all cases. As I sat through the "Premier Session" of the recent Heritage, Summer FUN auction, I was amazed at how much some of those "red headed step children" without the green sticker brought. If the coin was nice, it didn't seem to matter if it was in a PCGS and NGC holder.

[Walkerfan]

NGC coins better have a CAC sticker or you are faced with a hope for the best scenario if they don't……… Rejected coins are not quite kicked to the curb but heading in that direction. Discounting for sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,MJ

 

What's sad is that you are actually serious in this post I think.

 

As MarkFeld mentioned, there have been examples of the exact same coin in the exact same grade but in different brands of plastic that sell at very different prices. That price difference is clearly no longer a function of the coin and is all about the perception of the buyers.

 

With regard to your "rejected coins" comment -- CAC doesn't in any way tell you which coins are rejected, so there is no way of knowing whether a coin has ever been submitted to CAC unless 1) it has a sticker or 2) someone specifically tells you it didn't pass CAC. If you're willing to just ignore all other coins in NGC holders, then good -- that leaves a lot of nice coins for those of us who couldn't care less about the little holographic bean.

 

 

It just becomes math after awhile. Nothing more.

 

1) PCGS coins garner higher prices then NGC on like coins

 

2) PCGS/CAC coins garner the highest prices

 

3) NGC/CAC coins trade at a premium over NGC non stickers coins and comparable to like PCGS non stickered coins in a lot of cases

 

4) NGC non stickered coins are treated like red headed step children in a lot of series. Can you find value there? Sure? However, you are alway likely to find a lot of over grade coins. With PCGS coins trading for more it makes sense to cross the best coins into PCGS plastic. That is why PCGS has no problems crossing over the best NGC coins. Math. A lot collectors THINK they know how to grade. Thinking and knowing are two different things especially when it comes down to how the services grade. Knowing how the services grade becomes way more valuable then a collector using their own perceived methodology. Nobody cares about that.

 

5) No CAC doesn't tell you which NGC coins didn't sticker BUT there is a market perception of throwing out the baby with the bath water. If it ain't stickered I wonder why mentality. I've seen it. Also, I know a lot of collectors that will sell their NGC coins that didn't sticker into auctions or cross into PCGS at the next lower grade. Math.

 

MJ

 

Geez I come over here to get away from the kool-aid

 

He is not a kool-aid drinker, but rather, a realist, with a great deal of experience and a keen eye.

 

The above stated in bold by Mark about MJ is the phrase of the day.

 

If you know what you are doing and can grade, especially MARKET grade------you will be fine in selecting PQ coins in NGC slabs and will sometimes get some fantastic deals, although I've paid up on occasion, too. But if you DON'T you are venturing into VERY dangerous waters.

 

My set is 35% NGC and some of my best coins are in NGC slabs and I am darned glad to own them. With the early Walker dates (1916-1933); I find that there are simply MORE PQ coins available in PCGS slabs. But the mid-late dates is another story----MUCH more available in NGC plastic and the good ones are ripe for the picking.

 

Since I am working on coins from 1934-1947, my NGC/PCGS ratio will likely increase, now.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

NGC coins better have a CAC sticker or you are faced with a hope for the best scenario if they don't……… Rejected coins are not quite kicked to the curb but heading in that direction. Discounting for sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,MJ

 

What's sad is that you are actually serious in this post I think.

 

As MarkFeld mentioned, there have been examples of the exact same coin in the exact same grade but in different brands of plastic that sell at very different prices. That price difference is clearly no longer a function of the coin and is all about the perception of the buyers.

 

With regard to your "rejected coins" comment -- CAC doesn't in any way tell you which coins are rejected, so there is no way of knowing whether a coin has ever been submitted to CAC unless 1) it has a sticker or 2) someone specifically tells you it didn't pass CAC. If you're willing to just ignore all other coins in NGC holders, then good -- that leaves a lot of nice coins for those of us who couldn't care less about the little holographic bean.

 

 

It just becomes math after awhile. Nothing more.

 

1) PCGS coins garner higher prices then NGC on like coins

 

2) PCGS/CAC coins garner the highest prices

 

3) NGC/CAC coins trade at a premium over NGC non stickers coins and comparable to like PCGS non stickered coins in a lot of cases

 

4) NGC non stickered coins are treated like red headed step children in a lot of series. Can you find value there? Sure? However, you are alway likely to find a lot of over grade coins. With PCGS coins trading for more it makes sense to cross the best coins into PCGS plastic. That is why PCGS has no problems crossing over the best NGC coins. Math. A lot collectors THINK they know how to grade. Thinking and knowing are two different things especially when it comes down to how the services grade. Knowing how the services grade becomes way more valuable then a collector using their own perceived methodology. Nobody cares about that.

 

5) No CAC doesn't tell you which NGC coins didn't sticker BUT there is a market perception of throwing out the baby with the bath water. If it ain't stickered I wonder why mentality. I've seen it. Also, I know a lot of collectors that will sell their NGC coins that didn't sticker into auctions or cross into PCGS at the next lower grade. Math.

 

MJ

 

Geez I come over here to get away from the kool-aid

 

He is not a kool-aid drinker, but rather, a realist, with a great deal of experience and a keen eye.

 

Good Afternoon, Mark.

 

While you are correct I am certain in the experience and ability of the Poster, is it possible that commentary not in favor of the opinion of the Postings may be due to the language conveyance used, that seems so finite and absolute of all other Services and opinions of others, and that the only consideration should be the end $ result?

[MarkFeld]

NGC coins better have a CAC sticker or you are faced with a hope for the best scenario if they don't……… Rejected coins are not quite kicked to the curb but heading in that direction. Discounting for sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,MJ

 

What's sad is that you are actually serious in this post I think.

 

As MarkFeld mentioned, there have been examples of the exact same coin in the exact same grade but in different brands of plastic that sell at very different prices. That price difference is clearly no longer a function of the coin and is all about the perception of the buyers.

 

With regard to your "rejected coins" comment -- CAC doesn't in any way tell you which coins are rejected, so there is no way of knowing whether a coin has ever been submitted to CAC unless 1) it has a sticker or 2) someone specifically tells you it didn't pass CAC. If you're willing to just ignore all other coins in NGC holders, then good -- that leaves a lot of nice coins for those of us who couldn't care less about the little holographic bean.

 

 

It just becomes math after awhile. Nothing more.

 

1) PCGS coins garner higher prices then NGC on like coins

 

2) PCGS/CAC coins garner the highest prices

 

3) NGC/CAC coins trade at a premium over NGC non stickers coins and comparable to like PCGS non stickered coins in a lot of cases

 

4) NGC non stickered coins are treated like red headed step children in a lot of series. Can you find value there? Sure? However, you are alway likely to find a lot of over grade coins. With PCGS coins trading for more it makes sense to cross the best coins into PCGS plastic. That is why PCGS has no problems crossing over the best NGC coins. Math. A lot collectors THINK they know how to grade. Thinking and knowing are two different things especially when it comes down to how the services grade. Knowing how the services grade becomes way more valuable then a collector using their own perceived methodology. Nobody cares about that.

 

5) No CAC doesn't tell you which NGC coins didn't sticker BUT there is a market perception of throwing out the baby with the bath water. If it ain't stickered I wonder why mentality. I've seen it. Also, I know a lot of collectors that will sell their NGC coins that didn't sticker into auctions or cross into PCGS at the next lower grade. Math.

 

MJ

 

Geez I come over here to get away from the kool-aid

 

He is not a kool-aid drinker, but rather, a realist, with a great deal of experience and a keen eye.

 

Good Afternoon, Mark.

 

While you are correct I am certain in the experience and ability of the Poster, is it possible that commentary not in favor of the opinion of the Postings may be due to the language conveyance used, that seems so finite and absolute of all other Services and opinions of others, and that the only consideration should be the end $ result?

 

Good afternoon, John. Perhaps it is due to the language used. I am basing my comments on a combination of that langauage and my personal observations of and dealings with MJ.

[brg5658]

 

Kool-aid is best served chilled with an open mind. Perception is reality. Of course there is hard evidence to this as well. It's all there but too each is own.

 

FYI I love the value in a lot NGC stickered coins.

 

MJ

 

Maybe you should brush up on your Plato. Might I suggest the allegory of the cave?

 

I function in an evidence-based world, not one of emotion and perceptions. The evidence has been offered here by one of your own -- the exact same coin sells for more in a PCGS holder -- but as a buyer/collector, I would actually prefer to have the exact same coin in the less expensive outer-wear.

 

Have you ever stopped and thought that dealer's want you to believe in the PCGS/CAC dogma? There are a great many dealers (very respected) who make a living by crossing coins from NGC holders to PCGS holders and selling them at huge mark-ups. The coins are still the coins. The perception of quality differences is what feeds their business profits. Purchasing coins that reside in only PCGS/CAC holders is not a benefit to the collecting hobby -- the profiteers are the dealers and flippers. From a collector's perspective, I'd much rather be on the NGC-slabbed end of a purchase, than the same coin in a PCGS slab marked up 50-300%.

 

[Walkerfan]

I function in an evidence-based world, not one of emotion and perceptions. The evidence has been offered here by one of your own -- the exact same coin sells for more in a PCGS holder -- but as a buyer/collector, I would actually prefer to have the exact same coin in the less expensive outer-wear.

 

Have you ever stopped and thought that dealer's want you to believe in the PCGS/CAC dogma? There are a great many dealers (very respected) who make a living by crossing coins from NGC holders to PCGS holders and selling them at huge mark-ups. The coins are still the coins. The perception of quality differences is what feeds their business profits. Purchasing coins that reside in only PCGS/CAC holders is not a benefit to the collecting hobby -- the profiteers are the dealers and flippers. From a collector's perspective, I'd much rather be on the NGC-slabbed end of a purchase, than the same coin in a PCGS slab marked up 50-300%.

 

Amen

[MJ]

 

Kool-aid is best served chilled with an open mind. Perception is reality. Of course there is hard evidence to this as well. It's all there but too each is own.

 

FYI I love the value in a lot NGC stickered coins.

 

MJ

 

Maybe you should brush up on your Plato. Might I suggest the allegory of the cave?

 

I function in an evidence-based world, not one of emotion and perceptions. The evidence has been offered here by one of your own -- the exact same coin sells for more in a PCGS holder -- but as a buyer/collector, I would actually prefer to have the exact same coin in the less expensive outer-wear.

 

Have you ever stopped and thought that dealer's want you to believe in the PCGS/CAC dogma? There are a great many dealers (very respected) who make a living by crossing coins from NGC holders to PCGS holders and selling them at huge mark-ups. The coins are still the coins. The perception of quality differences is what feeds their business profits. Purchasing coins that reside in only PCGS/CAC holders is not a benefit to the collecting hobby -- the profiteers are the dealers and flippers. From a collector's perspective, I'd much rather be on the NGC-slabbed end of a purchase, than the same coin in a PCGS slab marked up 50-300%.

 

Sure while we are at it reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

 

Anyways now you are just tossing around straw man numbers and scenarios which I actually call BS on. Whatever floats your boat.

 

Mark and Walker thanks for the kind words. John, there is nothing absolute but I don't have your thread stamina so you have to read between the lines which is what Mark is getting at. Bill, you are are in the upper 3% IMO so continue to use that to your advantage. One can always cite an example to derail an entire big picture point. You do that on occasion. I was speaking to the other 97%. Maybe half of the 97% think they are in the upper 3% of grading skills or marker perception. Most bargains are anything but. The proof is in the pudding when it comes time to sell. Maybe they won't care. That is totally cool. That is where my too each is own sentiment comes in. Just throwing it out there.

 

FYI 30% of my collection resides in NGC plastic and I haven't crossed any coins to date. I probably will one day.

 

MJ