RE: 1922 Medium Relief Peace Dollar 0

[RWB]

To “moosesr” or “BryceM” on PCGS regarding your post 1922 Medium Relief Peace Dollar?

 

If you will post your questions about these experimental pieces here I’ll try to answer them. BTW there are 3 known specimens including the last one made. Also don’t bother with counting rays – look for the hub defect just above the olive stem. See Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921 or A Guide Book to Peace Dollars for photos, etc.

 

[Keigwin]

This is the coin in question, Roger.

 

The cert checks out. But obviously it is not a Philly '22. I assume it is an NGC mechanical error.

Lance.

[RWB]

The ebay coin is just an error on the insert.

[jerseycat10]

The ebay coin is just an error on the insert.

 

Roger, can you elaborate? Obviously it is an error that it doesn't note the Denver mintmark.

 

Is this coin also mistakenly labeled as a medium relief coin?

[e1cnr]

interesting die rotation

[orifdoc]

Roger,

 

In both the 1st & 2nd editions of your Peace Dollar Guidebook, you state that there is only 1 example known, found in circulation, listed as Judd-2020. This coin was apparently authenticated by NGC in 2001.

 

Have 2 more been discovered? Do any high-quality photos exist? I'd love to see what you mean by the die defect above the olive branch. The portrait of the medium-relief coin shown on page 170 of the 2nd edition of your book seems "different", especially around the nose and brow.

 

As far as the coin on eBay, I think we all can agree that it's probably just a 1922-D with a bit of die rotation in a mislabeled holder.

 

- BryceM

 

 

[RWB]

"Obviously it is an error that it doesn't note the Denver mintmark. Is this coin also mistakenly labeled as a medium relief coin?"

 

Yep.

 

The next edition of the Guide Book for Peace Dollars will update this and several other items regarding the series. I'll post something here later today that might help clarify the early Peace dollar situation.

[RWB]

Here is a diagram I prepared that should help folks understand the relationships of early Peace dollar production and experimental pieces. None of the 1922 high relief trial pieces were put into circulation, but some were purchased for $1 by mint officers and used as samples for Sec of the Treasury and others. Jim Fraser had several of each for approval purposes. Others were purchased by Mint HQ staff as souvenirs.

 

The diagram is large so readers can see the differences in lettering. Also medal press proofs and production press strike will look a little different even when from the same dies. This is due to incomplete metal flow.

 

 

Photo sources are Heritage Auctions, ANR (Stack's-Bowers), Goldberg's Auctions, NGC and the author.

[Catbert]

Wow Roger. So nice to see you put this info up here.

[RWB]

Most 1921 Peace dollars have relief more like the 1922 HR/rev '21 - struck on production presses at reduced pressure.

 

Here's a poor quality image of the field of a 1921 Peace dollar from a fresh pair of dies. Notice the smooth metallic "satin" surface and absence of luster from flow lines caused by use. This coin came from an old album and had likely been there since it was collected in New York in early January 1921.

 

[RWB]

PS: This is also the surface on a satin proof coin. The medal press proof will be better struck and have sharper detail than a production coin.

[orifdoc]

Good stuff!

 

It's virtually incomprehensible to me that this coin went from design contest to multiple iterations of early dies & designs in a period of just several days. Throw in a million 1921 production pieces and the creation of a few proofs & trials..... it's no wonder there is some confusion about the "leftovers" from this process. All of this was more or less wrapped up in time to create some 84 million 1922 dollars - the highest total for any year of silver dollar production.

[Afterword]

Liberty's hair on the 1922 Med Relief is beautifully detailed, but I cannot see the difference in lettering. It is either a very subtle difference or my old eyes are failing me.

[RWB]

Lettering on the 1922 HR obv and 1922 HR rev is slightly thinner and more rounded than in 1921. The 1922 MR was rejected by Fraser specifically because of the detail in the hair....he wanted more "massing" as deFrancisci had done.

 

Just an opinion, but the 1922 HR reverse and Morgan's 1922 HR obverse are the best version of the design. Had Morgan reduced the obverse relief to that of the MR example, the coin would have some out OK (not great) under normal production conditions. The 1922 MR piece that is the last one off the trial run, is nicely detailed in lettering and central hair.

 

DeFracisci's low relief 1922 version goes too far, especially in flattening the reverse lettering.

[Afterword]

"Lettering on the 1922 HR obv and 1922 HR rev is slightly thinner and more rounded than in 1921. The 1922 MR was rejected by Fraser specifically because of the detail in the hair....he wanted more "massing" as deFrancisci had done."

 

Yes, I see the difference in the 1921 from the 1922s. I was looking for a difference between the three 1922 examples. My misunderstanding.

 

[RWB]

The two in the center are from the same hub. on the left is an obverse from a production press test and on the right is a medal press proof. Both working dies had the same detail.

 

FYI, just because a 1921 Peace dollar is sandblasted, it does not mean it is a proof. Some production trials were sandblasted before they were shown to officials; others were sandblasted by individuals wanting to cash in on "proof coin" prices in the 60s and 70s. ANA Authentication and later independent authentication has obviated most - not all - of this trickery.

[RWB]

orifdoc:

 

The Commission of Fine Arts knew what it was doing and the sculptors were selected for quality and ability to work quickly. After deFrancisci's design was selected, Jim Fraser was assigned for the CFA to critique the younger sculptor's work and make sure it was true to the Saint-Gaudens "Nike Erini "prototype. When deFrancisci took the models to Washington for final approval, Fraser was in New York with copies of the models. After approval deFrancisci telephoned Fraser, and Fraser then had iron casts made in NYC and delivered to the Philadelphia Mint. This saved time.

 

George Morgan had to remove the sword from the steel hub of the original reverse. (Converted it into parts of the olive branch.) He and deFrancisci worked all day on it to finish and then have master dies and working hubs made so that working dies could be produced.

[orifdoc]

Why can't new designs happen like this today? With all of our fancy computer design and CNC machining it takes months or even years for a coin to go from concept to completion. There are a hundred opportunities for all the artistry to be beaten completely out of the finished product.

 

The commission of Fine Arts in the 1920s were correct to have the sculptor so intensely involved in the process. From your book they seemed to grasp the importance of preserving the artistry.

 

It's a magnificent coin, even with its warts and bruises. Personally, I think all those little problems are part of the allure of this classic masterpiece.

[RWB]

The satin proof of the Medium Relief 1922 Peace dollar will be in the Stacks-Bowers auction in August. However, it has been incorrectly attributed by PCGS as a "modified" design when it is actually completely new and different. They also do not understand that it is a medal press proof not a toggle press production trial.

 

These are spectacular coins and I encourage anyone interested in Peace dollars to examine them in Chicago.

[AegisIII]

I want to go back to one of the coins Goldbergs sold last month, the "PF64" one. Am I right in thinking it's a 1922 high relief, reverse of 1921. But rather than proof, it's a business strike, but with post-striking "antiquing" processing? Which of course brings up what its designation should be. Again, I don't think it should be called a proof, but calling it just a vanilla business strike would not give the coin justice either. I also rather despise the term "specimen" for describing any US coin which is not a proof but also something different than a business strike, so I'd rather not call it that.

 

Also, for those who saw the coin in person, do you think it got sandblasted or not? The online photos have be uncertain either way, but I know from medals of that era that the sandblasted surfaces often had rather fine facets. (Plus, the "64" coin doesn't look like the "67" coin in the same sale, which was obviously a sandblast proof.)

 

 

[RWB]

I want to go back to one of the coins Goldbergs sold last month, the "PF64" one. Am I right in thinking it's a 1922 high relief, reverse of 1921. But rather than proof, it's a business strike, but with post-striking "antiquing" processing?

 

You are correct. But no change was made. After all, why should "they" bother to ask anyone who did almost all of the original research, analysis, work and publication on this? Must have been fun to be a befuddled bidder in that auction.

 

(PS: Many posters on PCGS and NGC boards quickly noticed that the coin's reverse was a 1921 from the photos released to the public. But maybe that didn't matter....?)

Edited July 12, 2014 by RWB

[RWB]

If everyone who wants it has had a chance to copy the illustration, I'll remove it tomorrow morning - after I walk the dog.

[leeg]

Super nice info.

 

(thumbs u

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I want to go back to one of the coins Goldbergs sold last month, the "PF64" one. Am I right in thinking it's a 1922 high relief, reverse of 1921. But rather than proof, it's a business strike, but with post-striking "antiquing" processing?

 

You are correct. But no change was made. After all, why should "they" bother to ask anyone who did almost all of the original research, analysis, work and publication on this? Must have been fun to be a befuddled bidder in that auction.

 

$$$$ are always more important than confirmed academic research.

That is why we pay teachers so little.

[RWB]

...might also be a reason why many students seem to learn so little.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

...might also be a reason why many students seem to learn so little.

 

[mhomei]

Thanks a bunch guys!!!

very educational thread...best I have read in some time

[zboyle04]

so how did they accidentally label that ebay coin as medium relief? If i had stumbled upon that auction i might have bought it, but glad i didnt since it was a typo?

[RWB]

"So how did they accidentally label that ebay coin as medium relief?"

 

I doubt if anyone here can answer. Did a label get switched?

 

For future reference, none of the 1922 HR or MR pieces were struck outside of Philadelphia. A few dies of the 1922 HR/rev '21 pairing were sent to Denver and San Francisco, but not used. They were returned to Philadelphia and presumably destroyed.

[zboyle04]

"So how did they accidentally label that ebay coin as medium relief?"

 

I doubt if anyone here can answer. Did a label get switched?

 

For future reference, none of the 1922 HR or MR pieces were struck outside of Philadelphia. A few dies of the 1922 HR/rev '21 pairing were sent to Denver and San Francisco, but not used. They were returned to Philadelphia and presumably destroyed.

 

thats kind of what i was thinking, i do have your peace dollar book and i remember reading something like that. i need to get the upgraded version