How late did Lettered Edge Capped Bust Halves circulate?

[CaptHenway]

Does anybody know of a credible source that says when LE Capped Bust halves became uncommon enough in circulation that it could be said that they were "no longer in circulation?" Obviously they were still legal tender and could have been spent into the 20th Century, just as I still saw the occasional well-worn Barber dime in circulation back in 1960, but when did they cease being common?

 

A lot of them probably got melted down during the great recoinage of 1853-55, but there are plenty of pre-1853 Seated halves around so we know that not everything got destroyed.

 

Most silver disappeared during the Civil War, but then reappeared in the mid-1870's as the price of silver fell and the coins became worth more as currency than as bullion. Were Capped Bust halves among them?

 

No conjecture, please. I am looking for documentation.

 

Thanks,

 

TD

 

[delta]

Interesting question, probably RWB can provide a decent answer. But I think you have overly restricted the possible replies by disallowing conjecture, even if based on anecdotal evidence. And the question itself is by nature imprecise.

[RWB]

I have not seen anything mentioning this subject. Denga might have.

[DaveG]

I've seen very little that addresses the circulation of Capped Bust halves.

 

I've seen a reference or two to government payments being made with half dollars (as the largest denomination available) in the 1804-1833 period (post-cessation of the silver dollar and before the reduced-size gold coins appeared in 1834), but these were, I think, modern numismatic references, not contemporary commercial references.

 

Regarding the oft-told story that Capped Bust halves spent many years as bank reserves, the only (almost) contemporary reference I've seen (Hugh McCulloch's memoirs) remarks that the reserves of his bank in Indiana consisted of Spanish and Mexican silver dollars until silver reached a premium following the California Gold Rush and the silver coins were sold and replaced with gold.

 

The only other reference I can think of, if you want to call it that, is Riddell's Monograph of the Silver Dollar, which includes, among the images of the many counterfeit Mexican dollars deposited at the New Orleans mint in the early 1840's, images of contemporary counterfeit Bust halves. Their presence implies that Bust halves were deposited at the New Orleans mint during the early 1840's.

 

edited to add: I also recall a contemporary report from, I think, the Michigan bank examiners that discusses opening a box of 'specie' that turned out to be broken glass under a thin layer of half dollars. Unfortunately, the report doesn't characterize the kind of half dollars, but the report was from the late-1830's, I think. If you're interested, I can dig out the reference.

[CaptHenway]

Thanks, but I would expect the bulk of the half dollar population to still be Capped Bust's in the late 1830's.

 

I am mainly wondering if they were still around at the start of the Civil War.

[messydesk]

I'm going to break the conjecture rule, sort of.

 

Could one figure this out based on mintages and current survival estimates of coins in low grade, comparing it with post-1853 halves and again with post-1873 halves? We know that CBHs from the mid 1830s exist in low grade, which means they would have circulated through the Panic of 1837 and the Crisis of 1839.

 

Were there other things that drove them underground, like coin sorters that didn't accommodate the larger size? I imagine, however, that these wouldn't have become mainstream until later in the 19th century.

 

Speaking of underground, it might be worth posing a question to the detectorists to see what mixtures, if any of bust and seated halves are found in various areas. Anecdotal evidence, of course, but evidence nonetheless.

 

It will be interesting to see what non-conjecture can be found. It would seem, however, that the odds seeing a CBH in circulation after reconstruction were pretty long, given they had to survive:

• The Great Half Dollar Downsizing of 1836
  
• The Panic of 1837
  
• The Crisis of 1839
  
• The Debasement of 1853
  
• The Civil War
  
• The Crime of 1873
  

[JIM F.]

I'm going to break the conjecture rule, sort of.

 

Could one figure this out based on mintages and current survival estimates of coins in low grade, comparing it with post-1853 halves and again with post-1873 halves? We know that CBHs from the mid 1830s exist in low grade, which means they would have circulated through the Panic of 1837 and the Crisis of 1839.

 

Were there other things that drove them underground, like coin sorters that didn't accommodate the larger size? I imagine, however, that these wouldn't have become mainstream until later in the 19th century.

 

Speaking of underground, it might be worth posing a question to the detectorists to see what mixtures, if any of bust and seated halves are found in various areas. Anecdotal evidence, of course, but evidence nonetheless.

 

It will be interesting to see what non-conjecture can be found. It would seem, however, that the odds seeing a CBH in circulation after reconstruction were pretty long, given they had to survive:

• The Great Half Dollar Downsizing of 1836
  
• The Panic of 1837
  
• The Crisis of 1839
  
• The Debasement of 1853
  
• The Civil War
  
• The Crime of 1873
  

 

I suspect that the debasement of 1853 accounted for a significant drop off in circulation of these.

[Coindude]

Believe it or not, In the mid 80's, probably 1985, I saw an old half dollar in a till at a grocery store. Long story short, the teller sold it to me for 50 cents. Actually there were two, only one was a lettered edge. They turned out to be an 1858 and an 1811. Do I have any delusion that these had been in circulation since the day they were minted? Heck no, but I feel that I saved them from being lost. Anyhow, that's how I feel.

 

Just a trivial story that I never tire of sharing, or bragging about!

[RWB]

"How late did Lettered Edge Capped Bust Halves circulate?"

An alternative answer is : Until the bar closed at 1AM.

[Nysoto]

Does anybody know of a credible source that says when LE Capped Bust halves became uncommon enough in circulation that it could be said that they were "no longer in circulation?" Obviously they were still legal tender and could have been spent into the 20th Century, just as I still saw the occasional well-worn Barber dime in circulation back in 1960, but when did they cease being common?

 

Mint Director Samuel Moore to Campbell P. White of the House of Representatives, May 4, 1832 (excerpt):

 

"Within the first two periods [1792-1811] the exportation of our national coins must have been very inconsiderable, for reasons before suggested. But the ten years ending with 1821, including the war, and the subsequent years of extreme disturbance in the currency, present a different aspect. An exhausting exportation of specie marked this period, the result of causes surmounting all imaginable control of any seignorage, or other system of legislative restraint.

 

"The exportation of our silver coins within the last period [1822-1831] was not very important in amount. They have, during the greater part of that interval, been protected by foreign coins, which were preferred for exportation even at a small premium. Besides supplying this demand for remittance abroad, a large surplus of foreign coins has annually been sent to the mint for coinage. It is, on the whole, rendered exceedingly probable, on adequate data, that the residue of previous issues, which remained at the commencement of 1822, was greater that the amount which has been exported within subsequent years, and that the silver coins of the United States, now remaining in our currency, exceed twenty-one millions of dollars."

 

Moore's letter coincides with the relatively large number of post 1822 capped bust half dollars currently available for collectors, and those in collections.

 

Max Mehl's "The Star Rare Coin Encyclopedia" of 1925 shows the wholesale prices for CBH's at 50-55 cents in "good to proof" condition, except 1807 and 1815. All FH an DBH's were wholesaling for a numismatic premium in 1925. Prices for CBH's began to increase after the release of Martin Luther Beistle's book "A Register of Half Dollar Die Varieties" in 1929.

 

Collectors of CBH's could go to banks in the 1920's, where CBH's were still being held, and obtain them for trade at face value (talk about the good old days!).

 

Based on the above, CBH's were in circulation throughout the nineteenth century, and probably would occasionally appear in circulation until a numismatic wholesale premium developed for them in the 1930's. There was no financial incentive to pull CBH's from circulation until Beistle's book was published.

[RWB]

...and very few read Beistle's book.

[Nysoto]

True, Beistle's book did not sell all that many, as is the case with all specialized die variety books, but it does not take many entrants into a market to begin bidding up prices, especially considering that die variety nuts can have hundreds or thousands of coins in their collections.

 

Moore's letter also stated that $30,937,000 in silver coins were minted 1792- Dec. 1831. More than 90% of that was half dollars, and the vast majority of the $21 million that Moore estimated as being in the US would have been half dollars. Certainly some were melted post 1853, but that would not have been a highly profitable venture as the number of extant CBH's attest.

 

Beistle stated that he examined "many thousands of half dollars" in preparation for his book, which probably came from banks, some collectors (E. H. Green), dealers (David Proskey), and I would expect some from circulation.

 

edit - the coin albums of the 1930's and later, of which Beistle had an integral role, also increased demand for half dollars and other coins in that time frame. I would not want to speculate as to which had the larger impact on prices, a few die variety collectors with hundreds of coins, or many album collectors with a few coins.

[DaveG]

Collectors of CBH's could go to banks in the 1920's, where CBH's were still being held, and obtain them for trade at face value (talk about the good old days!).

 

 

Nysoto,

 

Maybe I missed it in reading your post, but did you cite a reference for this?

[$ilverHawk]

Collectors of CBH's could go to banks in the 1920's, where CBH's were still being held, and obtain them for trade at face value (talk about the good old days!).

 

 

Nysoto,

 

Maybe I missed it in reading your post, but did you cite a reference for this?

 

Nysoto cited Samuel Moore and Max Mehl as sources for the comment.

 

I get it. During the 1920's CBH's could be picked up for face value except for a few dates. The publishing of Beistle's book in 1929 began a heightened awareness of collecting CBH's and contributed to the higher prices in the marketplace.

 

The Max Mehl citation clearly lists .50-.55 as the going rate for CBH's.

 

Are you disagreeing with the citations?

 

Carl

[DaveG]

$ilverhawk,

 

Pardon me, but surely Samuel Moore was dead long before the 1920's.

 

Also, I realize that a wholesale price of 50 cents to 55 cents implies that the coins are available for face value, presumably from banks, but to me at least, an implication is not the same as an actual market participant stating: "These coins are readily available from the banks in my locality."

 

Consider this: the wholesale price of Eisenhower dollars is pretty close to face value (last I heard, anyway), yet these coins are not readily available from banks (and have not been for decades, at least in my experience).

 

These days, in my experience, Ike dollars are most available in the hands of the heirs of casual coin collectors, most of whom are told to spend the coins when they have their inherited collections appraised.

 

Perhaps the situation was the same for Bust Halves in the 1920's?

[CaptHenway]

$ilverhawk,

 

Pardon me, but surely Samuel Moore was dead long before the 1920's.

 

Also, I realize that a wholesale price of 50 cents to 55 cents implies that the coins are available for face value, presumably from banks, but to me at least, an implication is not the same as an actual market participant stating: "These coins are readily available from the banks in my locality."

 

Consider this: the wholesale price of Eisenhower dollars is pretty close to face value (last I heard, anyway), yet these coins are not readily available from banks (and have not been for decades, at least in my experience).

 

These days, in my experience, Ike dollars are most available in the hands of the heirs of casual coin collectors, most of whom are told to spend the coins when they have their inherited collections appraised.

 

Perhaps the situation was the same for Bust Halves in the 1920's?

 

I suspect that you are right. Common, well-circulated Capped Bust halves would have been of little interest to a coin dealer, just as Mehl's "Star Rare Coin Book" offered no premium at all for 1853 Arrows and Rays silver because it was so common. That did not mean that you could go down to the corner bank and get some.

[$ilverHawk]

$ilverhawk,

 

Pardon me, but surely Samuel Moore was dead long before the 1920's.

 

Also, I realize that a wholesale price of 50 cents to 55 cents implies that the coins are available for face value, presumably from banks, but to me at least, an implication is not the same as an actual market participant stating: "These coins are readily available from the banks in my locality."

 

Consider this: the wholesale price of Eisenhower dollars is pretty close to face value (last I heard, anyway), yet these coins are not readily available from banks (and have not been for decades, at least in my experience).

 

These days, in my experience, Ike dollars are most available in the hands of the heirs of casual coin collectors, most of whom are told to spend the coins when they have their inherited collections appraised.

 

Perhaps the situation was the same for Bust Halves in the 1920's?

 

The appropriate citation would be Max Mehl's. Do a little work and check out prices for common CBH's in the 1920's. The market participants are simply reporting prices for CBH's in the 1920's. Do you have data that refutes the prices reported of 50 cents to 55cents for common date CBH's in the 1920's?

 

How in the world do Eisenhower Dollars enter into this discussion? The earlier post states that common date CBH's were readily available from banks. Yet you state that Eisenhower Dollars are not readily available from banks.

 

I don't follow your logic.

 

Carl

[coinman_23885]

 

The appropriate citation would be Max Mehl's. Do a little work and check out prices for common CBH's in the 1920's. The market participants are simply reporting prices for CBH's in the 1920's. Do you have data that refutes the prices reported of 50 cents to 55cents for common date CBH's in the 1920's?

 

How in the world do Eisenhower Dollars enter into this discussion? The earlier post states that common date CBH's were readily available from banks. Yet you state that Eisenhower Dollars are not readily available from banks.

 

I don't follow your logic.

 

Carl

 

He is making an analogy; the fact that a coin carries little premium over face does not mean that the coin is readily available in circulation, which is what the OP wants to know. Ikes don't carry a premium, yet they do not readily circulate. The same could be true of CBH during the Max Mehl era absent solid evidence to the contrary.

 

Edit: The citation for the bank data needs to be clarified. What source is being used here?

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Does anybody know of a credible source that says when LE Capped Bust halves became uncommon enough in circulation that it could be said that they were "no longer in circulation?" Obviously they were still legal tender and could have been spent into the 20th Century, just as I still saw the occasional well-worn Barber dime in circulation back in 1960, but when did they cease being common?

 

A lot of them probably got melted down during the great recoinage of 1853-55, but there are plenty of pre-1853 Seated halves around so we know that not everything got destroyed.

 

Most silver disappeared during the Civil War, but then reappeared in the mid-1870's as the price of silver fell and the coins became worth more as currency than as bullion. Were Capped Bust halves among them?

 

No conjecture, please. I am looking for documentation.

 

Thanks,

 

TD

Great question! I'd say one could "back into the answer" by looking at old hoards. For example, if someone found a buried hoard with numerous half-dollars dated through 1848, and a high percentage of them were bust halves, then one could probably assume they were circulating up until close to 1848, right?

[Conder101]

In order to find a creditable source for something like this you are probably going to need to find diaries or journal written by coin collectors. Financial writing, newspapers etc probably aren't going to be a good source. For them a half dollar is a half dollar and they probably aren't going to care or note the design of the coin. So your best shot would be numismatic publications or writings by collectors in the 1850 to 1880 period.

[CoinZip]

Awesome question that we may never know the real answer to.

 

 

Food for thought, the Steam Press was introduced during the Capped Bust Half era.

[RWB]

One should also be careful about ascribing cause-and-effect to the Beistle book.

[James_OldeTowne]

I went and back and reviewed a hoard that we sold at auction five years ago, called the Merten Treasure Hoard. These were coins turned up in an Illinois corn field by a couple of brothers in the early 1970s. The latest coins in the hoard were dated 1848, and there was a nice selection of lettered-edge bust halves, as well as a single 1836 reeded-edge. If this kind of information would be statistically helpful to you, let me know via PM (I don't want to spam the boards). I might still have a catalog from that sale laying around somewhere.

 

Incidentally, a VERY prominent dealer tried to get us to sell the hoard to him outright, but the consignor mandated it be placed in auction.

[CSdot]

I went and back and reviewed a hoard that we sold at auction five years ago, called the Merten Treasure Hoard. These were coins turned up in an Illinois corn field by a couple of brothers in the early 1970s. The latest coins in the hoard were dated 1848, and there was a nice selection of lettered-edge bust halves, as well as a single 1836 reeded-edge. If this kind of information would be statistically helpful to you, let me know via PM (I don't want to spam the boards). I might still have a catalog from that sale laying around somewhere.

 

Incidentally, a VERY prominent dealer tried to get us to sell the hoard to him outright, but the consignor mandated it be placed in auction.

 

Did the auction bring more than the prominent dealer's offer, or the amount you suspected the dealer would have offered?

[James_OldeTowne]

I went and back and reviewed a hoard that we sold at auction five years ago, called the Merten Treasure Hoard. These were coins turned up in an Illinois corn field by a couple of brothers in the early 1970s. The latest coins in the hoard were dated 1848, and there was a nice selection of lettered-edge bust halves, as well as a single 1836 reeded-edge. If this kind of information would be statistically helpful to you, let me know via PM (I don't want to spam the boards). I might still have a catalog from that sale laying around somewhere.

 

Incidentally, a VERY prominent dealer tried to get us to sell the hoard to him outright, but the consignor mandated it be placed in auction.

 

Did the auction bring more than the prominent dealer's offer, or the amount you suspected the dealer would have offered?

The dealer made a very strong offer, yet the coins outperformed even my wildest expectations. As a matter of fact, he placed bids and didn't win a thing!

 

Financially speaking, by far, the consignor(s) did the right thing using an auction house. But this is an aside from the OP. I've offered to send Capt Henway a copy of the auction catalogs in case they might prove useful for his research.