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Not another "Most Beautifully toned Bust half I've ever seen!" thread...

36 posts in this topic

OK, Maybe....

 

...but I would not call it the MOST beautiful. It is simple a really nice, totally original, highly lustrous, rainbow toned, circulated gem. Because of the late die state and flatness of the strike, it resembles a VF30 in terms of detail, but it is dripping with AU quality luster, and the wear is actually light over flatly struck high points. I would expect it to grade between XF45 and AU53.

1831o50_zpsa2f64c4d.jpg

 

1831r50_zps86a815c5.jpg

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totally original, highly lustrous, rainbow toned, circulated gem.

 

Are you really that confident to make the claim that this coin is "totally original"?

 

No disrespect intended, I am just curious as to why you would be so definitive on a coin that is getting close to 185 years old.

 

Also, I am color blind, but where is the "rainbow"? The toning, for some reason, just looks like it it riding on top of the coin and not part of the coin, in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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There is no way to tell definitively if a coin is 100% original, but this piece has undisturbed skin, and about as good a chance as there is of being so.

 

I can say without question that it is hairline free, which is of perhaps more importance on a coin like this than being "totally original."

 

The toning is phenomenal and has about every color of the rainbow in it, somewhere. I'm not sure why you think the color is floating, but I can assure you it is stuck to this coin like a lead balloon. Keep in mind there is a great deal of luster under the toning, lighting it up.

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There is no way to tell definitively if a coin is 100% original, but this piece has undisturbed skin, and about as good a chance as there is of being so.

 

I can say without question that it is hairline free, which is of perhaps more importance on a coin like this than being "totally original."

 

The toning is phenomenal and has about every color of the rainbow in it, somewhere. I'm not sure why you think the color is floating, but I can assure you it is stuck to this coin like a lead balloon.

 

I take your word for it. I was asking and not bashing your coin, because I do like it.

 

It may just be the lighting that is making the toning look crystallized to me, and as I said, not only am I color blind but old age and needing new bifocals does not help matters.

 

The part about it being "hairline free" allows me to better understand why you stated that.

 

Thanks.

 

 

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There is no way to tell definitively if a coin is 100% original, but this piece has undisturbed skin, and about as good a chance as there is of being so.

 

I can say without question that it is hairline free, which is of perhaps more importance on a coin like this than being "totally original."

 

The toning is phenomenal and has about every color of the rainbow in it, somewhere. I'm not sure why you think the color is floating, but I can assure you it is stuck to this coin like a lead balloon.

 

I take your word for it. I was asking and not bashing your coin, because I do like it.

 

It may just be the lighting that is making the toning look crystallized to me, and as I said, not only am I color blind but old age and needing new bifocals does not help matters.

 

The part about it being "hairline free" allows me to better understand why you stated that.

 

Thanks.

 

 

I think the crystalized look is an artifact of the harsh LED lighting, actually. I'm also noticing a vast difference in appearance as I switch from one monitor to the next. Some devices might not show the color that is displayed on my PC.

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I like it a lot! very nice toning and yes, a very original looking coin!

 

it reminds me a lot of my 1833 Bust Half i bought off eBay a couple months ago, also very lustrous (luster doesn't show well in my pics). my coin is in a PCGS AU50 holder, for comparison:

 

713698943_o_zpsd8b70f60.jpg

 

 

 

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The MS 62 1817 is not the most beautiful toned Bust but it is a nice original example. The 1811 has vivid colors .

147044.jpg.b07e98ec8ce3ba188cd0dac3a5cec4b8.jpg

147045.jpg.8427fdec0e095fb8ffdad7bfa030056d.jpg

147046.jpg.d147ab1a0fa48a06e66b50125f6ec126.jpg

147047.jpg.bdf8874d9a9f2b18b8ab969243783c63.jpg

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I remember that 1811 from other posts. It is a very nice coin!

 

I picked it up in early 2009 when the market was very soft after the stock market crash . It is one of my favorites.

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OK, Maybe....

 

...but I would not call it the MOST beautiful. It is simple a really nice, totally original, highly lustrous, rainbow toned, circulated gem. Because of the late die state and flatness of the strike, it resembles a VF30 in terms of detail, but it is dripping with AU quality luster, and the wear is actually light over flatly struck high points. I would expect it to grade between XF45 and AU53.

1831o50_zpsa2f64c4d.jpg

 

1831r50_zps86a815c5.jpg

 

Nice original VF35 maybe XF40. I like the toning. Clear indications of LDS. Toning/color does not trump honest circulation wear. Note curls and cap Eagle head and wings. Of course I am judging from pics. What is your Overton attribution?

 

If you decide to submit to a TPG I hope the grade makes your expectations.

 

Carl

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Color has no baring on the grade of a circulated coin. Also, Bust halves cannot be graded by detail, and one cannot assume that apparent wear spots are actually as heavy as they seem.

 

Bust halves are graded by actual wear and remaining luster, but only after the strike tendencies of the specific variety are considered. The flat details are due to weak strike, and there is simply light wear on top of those flat spots. The actual wear and luster are consistent with an AU50-53, but I would settle for XF45 due to the nuance involved. I would not expect most grading services to get the grade right on a coin like this. I would not be surprised to see it grade VF30, which is the details grade.

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Color has no baring on the grade of a circulated coin. Also, Bust halves cannot be graded by detail, and one cannot assume that apparent wear spots are actually as heavy as they seem.

 

Bust halves are graded by actual wear and remaining luster, but only after the strike tendencies of the specific variety are considered. The flat details are due to weak strike, and there is simply light wear on top of those flat spots. The actual wear and luster are consistent with an AU50-53, but I would settle for XF45 due to the nuance involved. I would not expect most grading services to get the grade right on a coin like this. I would not be surprised to see it grade VF30, which is the details grade.

 

I don't know if I'd even care what the grade is (other than trying to come up with a price). The coin is pretty...period.

 

jom

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Exactly. When I come across something like this, dripping with luster and beautifully toned, I don't care about the grade either.

 

Trying to determine just how much circulation a coin like this saw is nevertheless a challenge. I'm sure I purchased it as "VF+" or thereabouts, and knew instantly that it was much better, whether or not it could be easily proven outside the Bust nut world. ;)

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The coin looks attractive.

 

But I would not describe it as "totally original" since I don't know. Nor would I describe it as rainbow toned.

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But I would not describe it as "totally original" since I don't know. Nor would I describe it as rainbow toned.

 

Having the distinct advantage of holding it, I would suppose the former, and affirm the latter.

 

If it does not have a rainbow pattern, it certainly has virtually every color of the rainbow in it. Red, mauve, orange, yellow, lime green, teal, blue, lilac....Add chocolate and black and it would match Joseph's Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat, though I would rather not add those tones, personally.

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But I would not describe it as "totally original" since I don't know. Nor would I describe it as rainbow toned.

 

Having the distinct advantage of holding it, I would suppose the former, and affirm the latter.

 

If it does not have a rainbow pattern, it certainly has virtually every color of the rainbow in it. Red, mauve, orange, yellow, lime green, teal, blue, lilac....Add chocolate and black and it would match Joseph's Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat, though I would rather not add those tones, personally.

 

Even if I had the coin in hand and thought it was "totally original" I would not describe it that way.

 

I much prefer to err on the side of caution and describe such coins as "this coin looks original" or something along those lines. Said another way, I try to avoid stating opinion, guesses, supposition, etc., as fact. And I try to avoid absolutes, such as "totally", "always, "never". I believe that using such words is tantamount to looking for trouble and offers a lot more downside than upside.

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Mark, I agree that one should NEVER use absolutes. I also shy away from describing a coin like this as totally original, because, as I have already stated, there is no way to tell for certain. I would not shy away from using such terminology in touting the attributes of a coin, which is not for sale, in a tong-in-cheek thread about a former thread.

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Color has no baring on the grade of a circulated coin. Also, Bust halves cannot be graded by detail, and one cannot assume that apparent wear spots are actually as heavy as they seem.

 

Bust halves are graded by actual wear and remaining luster, but only after the strike tendencies of the specific variety are considered. The flat details are due to weak strike, and there is simply light wear on top of those flat spots. The actual wear and luster are consistent with an AU50-53, but I would settle for XF45 due to the nuance involved. I would not expect most grading services to get the grade right on a coin like this. I would not be surprised to see it grade VF30, which is the details grade.

 

Yes, I'm well aware that toning/color has no bearing on the grade of a circulated coin. I have assumed nothing about apparent wear spots.

 

I am also aware that die state, die condition and die wear must be taken into consideration when grading a Bust Half Dollar.

 

1831 is known for a very good to exceptional strike. (see Souders BHF p.291). I found no references that your die marriage, O-108, is known for a weak strike. There are no flat details due to a weak strike. Liberty and Eagle are average to strong. Even as a LDS there are good details in the protected areas. So I do not agree with your argument about a weak strike, light wear, nice luster therefore AU.

 

What I see is good, honest circulation wear for a VF+ to low XF Bust Half Dollar.

 

OK, when is Ankur going to post his neon 1831?

 

Carl

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I would grade the OP's coin as an EF-40, and would pay strong EF money for that toning on the reverse (the obverse, in my opinion, is fairly common - at least from the pictures).

 

While strike considerations may play into the grade somewhat at the AU level, they become irrelevant at EF and below. At that point, you are merely arguing semantics - there is sufficient detail missing to warrant an EF price, and thus an EF grade. I don't care if its due to a weak strike or wear at the EF level or below.

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I would grade the OP's coin as an EF-40, and would pay strong EF money for that toning on the reverse (the obverse, in my opinion, is fairly common - at least from the pictures).

 

While strike considerations may play into the grade somewhat at the AU level, they become irrelevant at EF and below. At that point, you are merely arguing semantics - there is sufficient detail missing to warrant an EF price, and thus an EF grade. I don't care if its due to a weak strike or wear at the EF level or below.

 

Very good points, but not arguing semantics, arguing grade and grades cost money. From Bust Half Dollars Auction and Sales Results. 1831 O-108 AU 250-450, XF 140-170, VF 140. Sales results 2012 to present.

 

I would not bid against you at the XF price. OP is looking to generate interest in a VF R1 coin with appealing color for an XF price while describing coin as an AU in disguise.

 

You may be correct, coin could sell in the XF price range based on the attractive toning. No way AU.

 

Carl

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Color has no baring on the grade of a circulated coin. Also, Bust halves cannot be graded by detail, and one cannot assume that apparent wear spots are actually as heavy as they seem.

 

Bust halves are graded by actual wear and remaining luster, but only after the strike tendencies of the specific variety are considered. The flat details are due to weak strike, and there is simply light wear on top of those flat spots. The actual wear and luster are consistent with an AU50-53, but I would settle for XF45 due to the nuance involved. I would not expect most grading services to get the grade right on a coin like this. I would not be surprised to see it grade VF30, which is the details grade.

 

Yes, I'm well aware that toning/color has no bearing on the grade of a circulated coin. I have assumed nothing about apparent wear spots.

 

I am also aware that die state, die condition and die wear must be taken into consideration when grading a Bust Half Dollar.

 

1831 is known for a very good to exceptional strike. (see Souders BHF p.291). I found no references that your die marriage, O-108, is known for a weak strike. There are no flat details due to a weak strike. Liberty and Eagle are average to strong. Even as a LDS there are good details in the protected areas. So I do not agree with your argument about a weak strike, light wear, nice luster therefore AU.

 

What I see is good, honest circulation wear for a VF+ to low XF Bust Half Dollar.

 

OK, when is Ankur going to post his neon 1831?

 

Carl

 

 

 

 

 

 

Carl,

 

This coin is not well-struck, and weak strike is a major problem across the series, especially on 1831 obverse dies. Overton states that "well struck, well preserved specimens of this date [1831] are not common," and Overton did not elaborate on every nuance of every die.

 

Most 1831 halves, and some of the 1832 examples are notorious for weak strike on the bustling and corresponding reverse features. Most 1831 dies were made from a very similar hub style, and a few different hub variations introduced in 1832 improved the strike problems somewhat. The pronounced weakness on the bustline could be the result of the depth to which the features were cut, making it extremely difficult for metal to fill the dies completely. The Overton plate coin for 1831 O-108 is from the same die state and shows the same flatness on the bustline, cheek, cap, and highest curls. In fact, most of the 1831 plate coins show similar weakness. For 1832, O-107, 108, 109, 110, and 122 were produced from a similar hub style, and often are weakly struck in the same areas. O-110 is the most problematic of them.

 

Bust halves are one of the hardest series in numismatics to grade. It is impossible to create a photo-pictorial for them, unless one is made for each die marriage; and even then, there would be inconsistencies. This coin has the details of a VF30 and the luster of an AU53. That luster is a clear sign that it was not honest wear that removed strong definition, but rather, much of that detail was never there. I would generally agree with Jason's rational for strong XF money. The coin has appreciable wear over its high points, but has lost minimal detail as a result.

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I would grade the OP's coin as an EF-40, and would pay strong EF money for that toning on the reverse (the obverse, in my opinion, is fairly common - at least from the pictures).

 

While strike considerations may play into the grade somewhat at the AU level, they become irrelevant at EF and below. At that point, you are merely arguing semantics - there is sufficient detail missing to warrant an EF price, and thus an EF grade. I don't care if its due to a weak strike or wear at the EF level or below.

 

Very good points, but not arguing semantics, arguing grade and grades cost money. From Bust Half Dollars Auction and Sales Results. 1831 O-108 AU 250-450, XF 140-170, VF 140. Sales results 2012 to present.

 

I would not bid against you at the XF price. OP is looking to generate interest in a VF R1 coin with appealing color for an XF price while describing coin as an AU in disguise.

 

You may be correct, coin could sell in the XF price range based on the attractive toning. No way AU.

 

Carl

 

Carl, I just typed out a well-reasoned, numismatically oriented response to how I think this coin should be graded. I've been collecting Bust halves for 22 years, so I have strong opinions on the matter. After I submitted that, I discovered that while I typing it, you insulted me.

 

OP, i.e., me, is not hyping anything. This coin is not for sale. I stand behind my opinion of the grade. I thought it was an attractive coin, and one that saw less circulation that it would at first seem, period

 

 

 

 

 

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This one was bagged for surface issues .

 

I think I remember this piece from an old thread. It strikes me as secondary album toning after cleaning or conservation to brighten the surfaces. The planchet streak is unattractive but these coins often grade choice mint state with prominent steaks. What was the stated reason for bodybagging it?

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I would grade the OP's coin as an EF-40, and would pay strong EF money for that toning on the reverse (the obverse, in my opinion, is fairly common - at least from the pictures).

 

While strike considerations may play into the grade somewhat at the AU level, they become irrelevant at EF and below. At that point, you are merely arguing semantics - there is sufficient detail missing to warrant an EF price, and thus an EF grade. I don't care if its due to a weak strike or wear at the EF level or below.

 

Very good points, but not arguing semantics, arguing grade and grades cost money. From Bust Half Dollars Auction and Sales Results. 1831 O-108 AU 250-450, XF 140-170, VF 140. Sales results 2012 to present.

 

I would not bid against you at the XF price. OP is looking to generate interest in a VF R1 coin with appealing color for an XF price while describing coin as an AU in disguise.

 

You may be correct, coin could sell in the XF price range based on the attractive toning. No way AU.

 

Carl

 

Carl, I just typed out a well-reasoned, numismatically oriented response to how I think this coin should be graded. I've been collecting Bust halves for 22 years, so I have strong opinions on the matter. After I submitted that, I discovered that while I typing it, you insulted me.

 

OP, i.e., me, is not hyping anything. This coin is not for sale. I stand behind my opinion of the grade. I thought it was an attractive coin, and one that saw less circulation that it would at first seem, period

 

 

 

 

 

No insults intended, I thought you got a bit out of hand mentioning an AU grade. A difference of opinion on grade. My opinion, no way this coin is AU as mentioned in previous post. Parsley/Overton states "Well struck, well preserved specimens of this date are not common." Souders states "Typical Strike: Very Good to Excellent (although the dentilation is often weak on many of the of the 1831 halves.)" I give greater weight to Souders research. Peterson does comment on the difficulty of grading some severely lapped and worn dies, but O-108 is not mentioned.

 

Interesting that you mention the 1832 halves, Kneass did make a new obverse master die, there are no notations of any weak strikes for any of the die marriages except for die lapping in the area of the Eagle tail feathers.

 

Damn, I bet most forum members are yawning.

 

Seems we both have "Bust Half Fever" if my comments were insulting, I offer my apology.

 

Carl

 

 

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