question about "details" coins and what that means...

[AHFreak]

Hello. I am wondering, is there a resource anywhere that explains what exactly all the "details" mean?

 

Specifically the "obverse wheel mark" details grade.

 

 

I got my first unexpected "details" grade from NGC, and it really caught me off guard. It was a 1964-D Kennedy half that I would have bet $$$ was a MS67... what the heck does obverse wheel mark mean, and how did I not see it?

[lehigh96]

A "details" coin is a problem coin. In years past, problem coins were given a body bag and not graded when submitted. In 2008, PCGS started encapsulating and authenticating problem coins to show that they are indeed genuine (not counterfeit) but ungradeable due to the problem. PCGS provides numerical codes for their problem coins instead of a written explanation.

 

In late 2009, NGC followed suit and created the "details" encapsulated coins to compete with the PCGS Genuine coins. They went one step further than PCGS to indicate what level of details the coin had and to give a written description of the problem associated with the coin.

 

With regards to your specific coin, the problem is a "wheel mark" found on the obverse of the coin. This refers to damage on the coin created by the wheel of a coin sorting machine. Usually the damage is in the form of a circular scrape or scratch near the periphery of the coin (see image below).

 

 

If when you receive the coin back from NGC and you still can't identify the damage and you really think it is worth of an MS67 grade, you might want to consider resubmitting the coin. Either way, please post a photo of the coin here so we can see it and maybe give you and extra set of eyes to see the damage.

 

Paul

[AHFreak]

Thank you for that explanation. I actually thought that is what "wheel" meant in the past, but because I am very familiar with what that particular type of damage does to a coin, I thought to myself, "it must be something different than what I thought". This coin is just too nice, and although I haven't gotten the coin back yet, I feel like I would be very very surprised if it truly has a wheel mark, or anything of that nature.

 

The other thing I might mention, is that I actually submitted 4 total 1964-D Kennedys, all 4 I thought were minimum MS66, 2 of which I "was extremely confident" were 67's, but seriously would not have been at all surprised if all 4 came back 67, I just knew for sure at least 1 would. In the last year I have submitted over 500 coins, and have become very good at determining where it will grade, before I send it... (one of the reasons I love NGC so much, I feel they are very consistent with the grades they assign, especially with the 1950-1970 proof/sms half dollars, which is where I deal mostly). So, I send these four 1964-D Kennedys, and freakin two out of four get "details" grade... One with the wheel mark, one with "improperly cleaned"... Now, the wheel mark is one thing, but improperly cleaned???... That is something that stands out like a sore thumb from a mile away... for me anyways. I almost wonder if I created some sort of "fishy-ness" or something by sending these four together maybe... I say that because all four have some level/degree of color/toning, all pretty different though, all are "enhanced" by the color vs. negatively affected, IMO. MS67's are pretty rare for the 1964 Kennedy, and every single one I have ever seen had character to some degree. None Ive seen where white.

 

Anyways, I would welcome any additional thoughts about my situation here, whether its my "poss. conspiracy" about sending 4 out of 4 that have random color, or how in the heck a "wheel mark", or "Improperly cleand" could even possibly slip by someone who has an eye for coins, etc...

 

Regardless though, I will get the best pictures of both that I can, and post them here as soon as I get the coins back. Im anxious to see them again for myself, and also get some thoughts from some of you here.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Thank you for that explanation. I actually thought that is what "wheel" meant in the past, but because I am very familiar with what that particular type of damage does to a coin, I thought to myself, "it must be something different than what I thought". This coin is just too nice, and although I haven't gotten the coin back yet, I feel like I would be very very surprised if it truly has a wheel mark, or anything of that nature.

 

The other thing I might mention, is that I actually submitted 4 total 1964-D Kennedys, all 4 I thought were minimum MS66, 2 of which I "was extremely confident" were 67's, but seriously would not have been at all surprised if all 4 came back 67, I just knew for sure at least 1 would. In the last year I have submitted over 500 coins, and have become very good at determining where it will grade, before I send it... (one of the reasons I love NGC so much, I feel they are very consistent with the grades they assign, especially with the 1950-1970 proof/sms half dollars, which is where I deal mostly). So, I send these four 1964-D Kennedys, and freakin two out of four get "details" grade... One with the wheel mark, one with "improperly cleaned"... Now, the wheel mark is one thing, but improperly cleaned???... That is something that stands out like a sore thumb from a mile away... for me anyways. I almost wonder if I created some sort of "fishy-ness" or something by sending these four together maybe... I say that because all four have some level/degree of color/toning, all pretty different though, all are "enhanced" by the color vs. negatively affected, IMO. MS67's are pretty rare for the 1964 Kennedy, and every single one I have ever seen had character to some degree. None Ive seen where white.

 

Anyways, I would welcome any additional thoughts about my situation here, whether its my "poss. conspiracy" about sending 4 out of 4 that have random color, or how in the heck a "wheel mark", or "Improperly cleand" could even possibly slip by someone who has an eye for coins, etc...

 

Regardless though, I will get the best pictures of both that I can, and post them here as soon as I get the coins back. Im anxious to see them again for myself, and also get some thoughts from some of you here.

 

 

Sometimes wheel marks and cleaning are not readily apparent and the coin needs to be tilted just right, under good light in order to detect them.

 

I would not put any credence in the conspiracy theory. And I would urge you to try as hard as you can to be objective and open minded when you get the coins back and re-examine them.

[AHFreak]

Yes, thank you Mark. as hard as it can be sometimes, the only way to truly learn is to be open, and objective. So I will be able to no prob.

 

I don't know if its possible to delete a thread, but if so I should delete this one. I made a new thread that I think is more to the point, and it has cert. #'s so anyone who cares enough can see pics..

 

Thanks.

[MarkFeld]

Yes, thank you Mark. as hard as it can be sometimes, the only way to truly learn is to be open, and objective. So I will be able to no prob.

 

I don't know if its possible to delete a thread, but if so I should delete this one. I made a new thread that I think is more to the point, and it has cert. #'s so anyone who cares enough can see pics..

 

Thanks.

 

I'd recommend deleting the other thread, if you can, not this one and soliciting feedback after you have reexamined the coins and provided good images.