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Starting to get really irritated - Saint dilemma

Started by CSdot,

21 posts in this topic

CSdot

CSdot

Posted
Posted

I am trying to put together a nice date set of Saints. I have most of the easy years, and now I'm trying to find a nice 1912 and 1920, but one thing I have noticed about these dates that I never saw with the easier dates is an abundance of rotated dies. What was going on at the US Mint during those years that prevented them from being able to produce a consistent product?

 

For example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1912-20-Saint-Gaudens-Graded-Mint-State-64-by-PCGS-Gold-Double-Eagle-Coinstats-/221412067755?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item338d3009ab

 

 

 

 

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CSdot

CSdot

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To add to the airing of grievances, what about multi thousand dollar coins that have shifted in the plastic. How hard is it for a major seller to get that sorted before selling?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1920-20-GOLD-ST-GAUDENS-DOUBLE-EAGLE-PCGS-MS64-NICE-EYE-APPEAL-LUSTROUS-/161255844817?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item258b98ebd1

 

 

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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To add to the airing of grievances, what about multi thousand dollar coins that have shifted in the plastic. How hard is it for a major seller to get that sorted before selling?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1920-20-GOLD-ST-GAUDENS-DOUBLE-EAGLE-PCGS-MS64-NICE-EYE-APPEAL-LUSTROUS-/161255844817?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item258b98ebd1

 

 

Apparently the sellers (and probably most buyers) aren't bothered about it - at least not to the extent that you are. What do you suggest the sellers do? Get coins re-holdered, each time the coins move inside the holder? Of course, even an inconvenient re-holdering won't necessarily solve the problem.

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Walkerfan

Walkerfan

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It is not dramatically shifted/rotated so I, personally, wouldn't be bothered by it JMHO.

 

People DO beat the out of slabs, though, which I agree with you on.

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CSdot

CSdot

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To add to the airing of grievances, what about multi thousand dollar coins that have shifted in the plastic. How hard is it for a major seller to get that sorted before selling?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1920-20-GOLD-ST-GAUDENS-DOUBLE-EAGLE-PCGS-MS64-NICE-EYE-APPEAL-LUSTROUS-/161255844817?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item258b98ebd1

 

 

Apparently the sellers (and probably most buyers) aren't bothered about it - at least not to the extent that you are. What do you suggest the sellers do? Get coins re-holdered, each time the coins move inside the holder? Of course, even an inconvenient re-holdering won't necessarily solve the problem.

 

I do not have a solution, and I don't really mean to blame the dealers as it's not their fault. Maybe my need for neatness and order (and a straight in the holder coin) is a sign of OCD or some other textbook diagnosis that I am unaware of? hm

 

Thanks for letting me vent. (thumbs u

 

 

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CSdot

CSdot

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Do you feel the linked coin is a rotated die?

 

Now that I look at it again I see the obverse is a little off too, so it may just be rotated in the holder? The eagle on the reverse has some serious upward tilt to it.

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BillJones

BillJones

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I have collected coins for over 50 years, and rotated dies have never bothered me. I even purchased an 1861 gold dollar one time because the dies were almost completely rotated, and I found that neat. After I got home I learned from my resource materials that it was a variation that was recognized by authorities like David Bowers. On the other hand, I would not pay more for a coin with rotated dies. To me it's not worth a premium.

 

Conversely I really don't like it when coins rotate in the slab. I find that quite annoying. :frustrated: I would not reject a coin out of hand because of that, but I still don't like it.

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CSdot

CSdot

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Conversely I really don't like it when coins rotate in the slab. I find that quite annoying. :frustrated: I would not reject a coin out of hand because of that, but I still don't like it.

 

Glad to hear I am not alone.

 

I wonder when the US Mint perfected its process to the point where rotated dies became rare or even unheard of. The 1920s? 1940s? 1970s? Today?

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CaptHenway

CaptHenway

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The linked 1912 and 1920 are both just slightly rotated within the holder (as opposed to the 1920 with the huge rotation within the holder.

 

Buy the coin, not the holder. Don't worry about the rotation within the holder. The coin is what it is!

 

TD

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breakdown-migration

breakdown-migration

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Coins rotating in the holder has never bothered me but I have seen people say on forums that it is easy to get the coin re-aligned by some method without gettingthe coin re-holdered. Don't remember what it was exactly but someone on here is likely to know.

Now scratched-up slabs, that bothers me...

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BillJones

BillJones

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Coins rotating in the holder has never bothered me but I have seen people say on forums that it is easy to get the coin re-aligned by some method without gettingthe coin re-holdered. Don't remember what it was exactly but someone on here is likely to know.

Now scratched-up slabs, that bothers me...

 

You whack the slab on a wooden surface in the direction you want it to rotate. I've this successfully a number of times. The trouble is it can rotate again. I've had them turn in the trunk of a car to or from a show.

 

PCGS boss, Dave Hall, has said that coins that turn in the holder are "unacceptable."

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jpcienkus

jpcienkus

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To add to the airing of grievances, what about multi thousand dollar coins that have shifted in the plastic. How hard is it for a major seller to get that sorted before selling?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1920-20-GOLD-ST-GAUDENS-DOUBLE-EAGLE-PCGS-MS64-NICE-EYE-APPEAL-LUSTROUS-/161255844817?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item258b98ebd1

 

 

Apparently the sellers (and probably most buyers) aren't bothered about it - at least not to the extent that you are. What do you suggest the sellers do? Get coins re-holdered, each time the coins move inside the holder? Of course, even an inconvenient re-holdering won't necessarily solve the problem.

 

I do not have a solution, and I don't really mean to blame the dealers as it's not their fault. Maybe my need for neatness and order (and a straight in the holder coin) is a sign of OCD or some other textbook diagnosis that I am unaware of? hm

 

Thanks for letting me vent. (thumbs u

 

 

I think many coin collectors are OCD each with varying degrees of affliction. Yes, I admit, I have some OCD tendencies.

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RWB

RWB

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I guess I'm a little dense -- what is your complaint?

 

Is it about coins rotating in the plastic slab, or is it rotation of obverse to reverse on the coin?

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CSdot

CSdot

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I guess I'm a little dense -- what is your complaint?

 

Is it about coins rotating in the plastic slab, or is it rotation of obverse to reverse on the coin?

 

Rotation in the plastic is annoying, but I would also prefer coins in my collection that do not have rotated dies. Obviously rotated dies are a reality in some series, especially with older coins. However, at some point modern minting methods reduced the likelihood of that occurring. Unfortunately, my search for a nice looking 1920 Saint has uncovered an unusually high number of rotated die examples. While there are not many examples I can point to on eBay at this moment, I have seen a good number of them in the past several years, and they all seems to be dated 1920.

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RWB

RWB

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All 1920 DEs were made in early December and kept as reserve funds until 1922. Dies used set pins to hold them in place, rather than machined key slots, so small amounts of rotation of one die to the other are common. The set up was done by eye-balling and a steel caliper.

 

Tapping one edge of the slab or the other will usually rotate the coin.

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James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

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Coins rotating in the holder has never bothered me but I have seen people say on forums that it is easy to get the coin re-aligned by some method without gettingthe coin re-holdered. Don't remember what it was exactly but someone on here is likely to know.

Done it numerous times.

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CSdot

CSdot

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All 1920 DEs were made in early December and kept as reserve funds until 1922. Dies used set pins to hold them in place, rather than machined key slots, so small amounts of rotation of one die to the other are common. The set up was done by eye-balling and a steel caliper.

 

Tapping one edge of the slab or the other will usually rotate the coin.

 

In addition to the sympathetic responses I received from fellow members, this is why this place is great. A logical answer to my question from a knowledgable source. Thanks RWB and others.

 

(thumbs u

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