The VDBs

[Kurtdog]

Were any of these VDBs "tooled out" to make the no-VDBs? It's my understanding some were. The rest were new dies. I'd think there would be "die markers" on those that were.

[RWB]

No.

Read "Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915" for details of what occurred.

[FishyOne]

Were any of these VDBs "tooled out" to make the no-VDBs? It's my understanding some were. The rest were new dies. I'd think there would be "die markers" on those that were.

 

I had heard there were but will differ to RWB's expertise. The story I got stated some pieces were struck with V.D.B. dies that had the initials ground off and when new dies were available they old V.B.D. dis were retired.

[Coindude]

Found this, and no I'm not trying to cause controversy here or undermine RWB's authority on the subject. Just something more for discussion.

 

The Elusive 1910 'VDB' Cent

 

By Dr. Sol Taylor

"Making Cents"

Saturday, May 10, 2008

 

In August 1909, the two United States Mints began releasing the new 1909 Lincoln cent — some 3/4-million from San Francisco and 26 million from the Philadelphia Mint. By the end of the first week, Chief Mint Engraver Charles Barber ordered production halted and all working dies with the initials "VDB" (Victor D. Brenner, the coin's designer) to be removed.

 

It was evident to me, many years later as a serious collector of Lincoln cents, that many 1909 "no VDB" cents had abrasion marks on the lower reverse where the dies were tooled to remove the initials.

Several hundred dies that were used, as well as hundreds of others awaiting use, were taken to the metal shop to have the initials removed. These dies were used later in the year to produce many of the new coins. In addition, new dies with no evidence of any initials came on line and produced the bulk of the remaining 1909 coins.

 

I noted many years ago that many uncirculated 1910 cents also showed these same abrasion marks on the lower reverse.

 

I concluded that some 1909 dies which had their initials removed were put into service in 1910 — since they saw so little (or no) use in the first week of August 1909.

 

It was around 1964 that I concluded that it was possible that some 1910 cents might bear traces of the "VDB" initials if not carefully removed in 1909. I published an article to that effect in the Numismatic Association of Southern California's NASC Quarterly. At the time, no one had seriously explored the possibility, and certainly no one had found any 1910 "VDB" cents.

 

It wasn't until 1985 that I found a 1910 cent in mint condition with traces of the "VDB." I sent it to Coin World. They returned it, uncertain if the marks were parts of the "VDB" or stray abrasion traces. No photograph was able to bring out the initial traces.

 

About 1995, Bill Fivaz (coauthor of "Cherrypickers' Guide to Rare Die Varieties") sent a certified matte proof 1910 cent to the Society of Lincoln Cent Collectors with pretty clear evidence of a "D" in the proper location of the "VDB" initials. That coin has been sold at least twice since then. However, once again, no certification service would certify the initial.

 

In an auction conducted by Bowers & Merena in the mid 1990s, Dave Bowers commented on a 1909-S VDB cent in the sale stating that the coin was originally listed as "1909-S." Later, under more careful scrutiny, it was evident that there were the tops of "VDB" on the reverse. He added that such faint "VDB" cents could easily pass casual inspection.

 

In several conversations over the years, Bowers admitted it was likely that a few 1910 "VDB" cents could exist, and he would love to see one. The specimen I found in 1985 was sold to a Brooklyn coin dealer who agreed that the tops of the VDB were there, and he has since resold it to a collector.

 

In the reference book on Lincoln cents by Flynn & Wexler, a full page is devoted to this enigmatic variety, and two photos which may actually show portions of the "VDB." To date, at least three other reputed 1910 "VDB" cents have been reported, but none has been certified by a major grading service. It is clear, however, that dies which originally had the "VDB" were used to produce coins in 1909 as well as in 1910.

 

Once a clearly defined specimen is located, all my speculation and research may bear fruit.

 

Dr. Sol Taylor of Sherman Oaks is president of the Society of Lincoln Cent Collectors and author of The Standard Guide to the Lincoln Cent. Click here for ordering information.

[drwstr123]

Here is the 1909 with the abrasion marks....

[RWB]

If you check the coins, you will find similar marks all over the place. In the photo above, notice that they appear at lower center and to the right at the rim beside the wheat stem....must have been a lot of extra "VDBs" running around.....

 

As to Sol Taylor's 2008 article; it's a pleasant bit of fluff filled with self-serving opinions, wishful thinking and few facts. The premise "that many 1909 "no VDB" cents had abrasion marks on the lower reverse where the dies were tooled to remove the initials" is logically faulty. The presence of "abrasion marks" do not have any meaning in and of themselves.

 

If you want to know what happened, read the book. If facts don't matter, then enjoy your fried bologna.

 

[drwstr123]

RWB, do you have any pics of other dates with the abrasions?

I'm trying to understand that some new dies were abraded and some were not abraded?

Can there be a reason why some new 1909 dies were lapped when there was no apparent reason for it?

[RWB]

Dies were used, repaired, and eventually withdrawn from production. The presence of minor abrasion from die maintenance establishes nothing in relation to the designer's initials.

 

Notice the highlighted area in your post – the V and D are free of die scratches, while scratches occur at the B and the along the rim to the right. The photo, thus, indicates no connection of any kind between the abrasions and the initials.

 

For the third – and final – time: Read the book to learn what actually happened in 1909. Also, get a copy of "From Mine to Mint" and learn about die maintenance, repair, polishing and the abrasives used.

 

[Coindude]

Sadly I believe that I only have the 1916 - 1021 copy of the Renaissance.

[Kurtdog]

I looked at many 1909s for remnants of the initials and have yet to find anything. Still, I can't help but think, nearly 30-million made, and they just trashed all those dies? But take somebody who carefully studied it, like Roger, and his opinion is they did. I think I'm inclined to believe it.

[leeg]

All of Roger' work deals strictly with the facts.

 

He takes the time to search various sources such as mint records and lists those sources in all his works.

 

I personally don't know of anyone who does it better.