Stirring the pot......Hard Times take a look! About cac :D

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Without reading too much into the usual discussion here, I'll just say that it's a surprisingly unattractive coin to my eye, going only by the photos, at the given grade.

 

X 2. As a 65 it should come as no surprise it did not green bean. What is a bit surprising is that it green beaned in the PCGS holder. Clearly CAC changed their mind and now sees it worthy as a 65.

 

I realize they're just images but doesn't it look brighter in the PCGS holder?

 

 

Looks less cruddy, regardless of picture quality. Conserved?

[MarkFeld]

Without reading too much into the usual discussion here, I'll just say that it's a surprisingly unattractive coin to my eye, going only by the photos, at the given grade.

 

X 2. As a 65 it should come as no surprise it did not green bean. What is a bit surprising is that it green beaned in the PCGS holder. Clearly CAC changed their mind and now sees it worthy as a 65.

 

I realize they're just images but doesn't it look brighter in the PCGS holder?

 

 

Looks less cruddy, regardless of picture quality. Conserved?

 

My guess is that nothing was done to the coin and that we're just seeing a difference in imaging/lighting.

 

While I would prefer that a grater portion of the surfaces be covered with original looking patina, unlike at least a couple of other posters, I don't find it the least bit unattractive.

[jom]

For whatever reason the PCGS coin seems brighter and it's far more likely it's due to either the photographic set up (lights) or an aperture issue. Sometimes NGC coins will reflect the light and the camera will adjust accordingly...if in auto mode or some such.

 

X 2. As a 65 it should come as no surprise it did not green bean. What is a bit surprising is that it green beaned in the PCGS holder. Clearly CAC changed their mind and now sees it worthy as a 65.

 

There seems to be a misunderstanding when it comes to CAC still. Just because a coin isn't stickered it does NOT mean it still isn't at that grade level. They are only saying the coin is not an A or B coin within the grade....it might be a "C" coin. And...just because a coin didn't sticker that doesn't mean:

 

1) It isn't a quality coin

2) A mistake by NGC or PCGS

3) A disease to be avoided at all cost.

 

It's simply a low end coin within the grade. As much as we like to believe that coins can be categorized within grades the fact is that coins are on a continuum from poor to excellent. Even then there are sometimes "quality" coins at lower grade levels and "butt ugly" coins in higher grades. It is what it is....and I think sometimes this gets forgotten in discussions such as this one.

 

jom

[mkman123]

So Jom, I'm guessing the coin was a "C" grade in NGC plastic so no cac but once its in PCGS plastic its now a "A" coin?

 

The grade was the same just that one has a sticker. If I was a seller and it was in the NGC holder, I would be upset........because CAC didn't sticker it in the first place, so then you sell for lets say a loss but now it got a CAC sticker so their is even more money left on the table!

[mkman123]

I think a good analogy would be if Mark Feld offered some sort of sticker.....lets say a thumbs up sticker or a thumbs down one. Thumbs up means he agrees with the grade and that its a great coin or could possibly even upgrade, thumbs down is not that good grade of a coin in the specified grade.

 

If I went to Mark to ask him to evaluate a coin for my collection and he told me he would give it a thumbs down on it and the reasons why, and so I decide to sell the coin and then a month later I see the same coin for sale at a much higher price AND with a thumbs up sticker I would be upset wonder why it now has a thumbs up sticker because Mark just a month before told me why it got a thumbs down.

 

I know CAC can make and has made mistakes but I think these things could damage some trust in CAC

 

[bsshog40]

Without reading too much into the usual discussion here, I'll just say that it's a surprisingly unattractive coin to my eye, going only by the photos, at the given grade.

 

X 2. As a 65 it should come as no surprise it did not green bean. What is a bit surprising is that it green beaned in the PCGS holder. Clearly CAC changed their mind and now sees it worthy as a 65.

 

I realize they're just images but doesn't it look brighter in the PCGS holder?

 

 

Looks less cruddy, regardless of picture quality. Conserved?

 

My guess is that nothing was done to the coin and that we're just seeing a difference in imaging/lighting.

 

While I would prefer that a grater portion of the surfaces be covered with original looking patina, unlike at least a couple of other posters, I don't find it the least bit unattractive.

I agree with Mark. By looking closely at the shadowing, it looks to be the lighting or the coin lightened up with photographic help. Doesn't look like any change in the coin itself.

[MarkFeld]

So Jom, I'm guessing the coin was a "C" grade in NGC plastic so no cac but once its in PCGS plastic its now a "A" coin?

 

The grade was the same just that one has a sticker. If I was a seller and it was in the NGC holder, I would be upset........because CAC didn't sticker it in the first place, so then you sell for lets say a loss but now it got a CAC sticker so their is even more money left on the table!

 

Yes, money could be left on the table. Just like when someone sells an NGC or PCGS coin and it subsequently upgrades. Or when someone sells an NGC coin which has failed to cross to a PCGS holder and it subsequently crosses. Even the sharpest dealers and collectors have experienced that numerous times. Because grading is at least somewhat subjective. It's a fact of life.

[MarkFeld]

I think a good analogy would be if Mark Feld offered some sort of sticker.....lets say a thumbs up sticker or a thumbs down one. Thumbs up means he agrees with the grade and that its a great coin or could possibly even upgrade, thumbs down is not that good grade of a coin in the specified grade.

 

If I went to Mark to ask him to evaluate a coin for my collection and he told me he would give it a thumbs down on it and the reasons why, and so I decide to sell the coin and then a month later I see the same coin for sale at a much higher price AND with a thumbs up sticker I would be upset wonder why it now has a thumbs up sticker because Mark just a month before told me why it got a thumbs down.

 

I know CAC can make and has made mistakes but I think these things could damage some trust in CAC

 

I don't believe that changing one's opinion of a grade and/or failing to be perfectly consistent is necessarily the same as making a mistake. But if you disagree, you need to be prepared for everyone in the industry to make "mistakes" and frequently, at that.

[jom]

So Jom, I'm guessing the coin was a "C" grade in NGC plastic so no cac but once its in PCGS plastic its now a "A" coin?

 

Who said it is now an "A" coin? Couldn't it be a just-made-it "B" coin? I'm pretty certain if the coin were, in fact, an obvious "A" coin it would have got the sticker in the NGC holder.

 

Of course, this is all just speculation. I'd be curious to hear what CAC would say about it.

 

jom

[coinman1794]

Cliff notes:

 

NGC Newman coin rejected at CAC.

Submitted to PCGS and receives same grade, green beans now!

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=914000

 

Hmmmm, why now a bean? Possible PCGS bias? Hard Times, perhaps some of your NGC coins that were denied a sticker, I wonder if they would sticker if in another holder! Discuss!

 

Perhaps it should have been resubmitted to CAC for a second try, while still in NGC plastic. They aren't 100% consistent, nor is any other grading service; and one example does not make a trend.

 

[bochiman]

Cliff notes:

 

NGC Newman coin rejected at CAC.

Submitted to PCGS and receives same grade, green beans now!

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=914000

 

Hmmmm, why now a bean? Possible PCGS bias? Hard Times, perhaps some of your NGC coins that were denied a sticker, I wonder if they would sticker if in another holder! Discuss!

 

Perhaps it should have been resubmitted to CAC for a second try, while still in NGC plastic. They aren't 100% consistent, nor is any other grading service; and one example does not make a trend.

 

 

And, they are also willing to take another look.

I did that with one I disagreed with and JA couldn't remember the coin exactly so asked me to send it back. When he got it, he called me (and, I am a very small timer so that was unexpected but just sincerely classy and nice on his part) and walked me through his reasoning.

 

Whether or not I agreed, or disagreed, I respect how he approached it and does business.

And, just for the record, I still have hundreds of coins that have never been to CAC and have no desire to send (not worth it, imho, or coins they don't look at (Roosies), or coins that I like but I know may be overgraded or have some issue that they wouldn't sticker, but I still like the coin).

[James_OldeTowne]

For the heck of it, I came back to re-read this thread and tried to approach it objectively. That may not be possible, though. Maybe I am just in a bad mood. Maybe these sorts of garbled, contorted discussions put me in a bad mood.

 

What I came away with the second time through is a feeling that borders on hopelessness over the absurd complications that have infiltrated the hobby and, in my mind, corrupted it almost beyond recognition. We have strayed so far from collecting coins that we might as well be collecting walnuts off of trees - CERTIFIED ad-nauseum and opinionated to death, of course. I just HAVE to know whether my walnuts are better than your walnuts even if they pretty much look exactly the same!

 

There was a time when you needed a certain date for your set, could simply come to agreement with a seller on a grade, look for that column in a price guide, and pass or play.

 

Apparently, that's ... just ... not ... good enough.

 

TODAY, you have to worry about how many stars, what sort of pluses, which brand of plastic, what flavor of sticker (green? gold? blue smiley??), which auction house's records to use, and on top of all that, what generation of slab it's in! Is it B quality? B+? C minus? Is it made with triple-whipple grade-A eggs??? Perhaps worst of all, it's paramount to get a never-ending supply of OPINIONS, because your own just won't cut it. Second opinion? not enough! Third party opinion? still not enough! FOURTH opinion? getting closer . EIGHTEEN OPINIONS???? Well, a few more can't hurt juuuuuust to make sure we get it exactly right.

 

Good grief!!!! WILL IT EVER STOP?!?!?

 

Will you EVER have ENOUGH second, third, fourth, eighteenth and 521st extra opinions to go around? Will I ever even get to learn how to decide for myself whether a coin is "good enough" for me?

 

Gosh, something simple like a walnut brownie sounds so quaint, doesn't it? But nope, I'll need to get at least twelve opinions from other people telling me whether or not it actually tastes good.

 

Of course, "they" will go to great lengths to convince me that if I don't get twelve opinions on the quality of the brownie, I just might get the taste wrong and pay too much for it. *sarcastic* thanks *sarcastic* for all these extra layers of insurance.

 

All I wanted was a stupid little walnut brownie. But first I had to get four opinions, a sticker, a 17.5% auction bidder's premium and shipping and handling charges on top of that. OOPS, Pay Pal wants a little, too. Better call my Accountant.

 

Think I'll just have some jello for dessert - they can't put a sticker on that.

 

CAN THEY?!?

 

over .

[brg5658]

James, you can rant any time you'd like. Your assessment is a breath of fresh air. I have truly missed you on the boards the past few months. It's great to have you back around here!!! (thumbs u

[jpcienkus]

Great post James.

 

I'm still fairly new to this hobby and have much to learn still. I've read almost every thread, trying to glean bits of knowledge from the more seasoned collectors on this and other sites. I've purchased many books on the series I currently like to collect and other series I plan to collect. I'm trying to build a foundation of knowledge, you know, the basics to follow. As someone who's spent their entire career in sales and marketing, some of the other stuff just doesn't make sense.

 

This is what resonates with me (I can't include everything otherwise this post will be even longer)

So you buy the book before the coin. That makes sense to me. Learn about what you're buying. Simple concept.

 

Buy the coin, not the plastic. Again, another simple concept to me. Use your knowledge to judge the coin yourself. Use the TPG grade as a guide.

 

Buy the best coins you can afford. Again, simple. Instead of getting two lower grades, buy one higher grade. Study the coin and make sure you agree it's properly graded and meets your own individual eye appeal standard. These coins have a better chance of holding value and possibly appreciating in the future.

 

Coins do not make a great investment. There are other investments that are more "reliable". It does not mean you can't make money in the hobby, but it takes experience.

 

The top two TPG's are PCGS and NGC. They have been the most consistent and market acceptable of all the grading services. That doesn't mean they're perfect. You still need to examine the coin. PCGS grades some series tougher than NGC and vice versa. There are other TPG's that are ranked below the top two and you can find nice coins in their holders, but you really need to be on your toes before buying them.

 

CAC: they attempt to identify the A and B coins in the grade. They make a market for their dealers to be able to buy sight unseen coins with confidence.

 

What I don't understand and one reason I don't spend a lot of time ATS, is the idea if a coin is NOT in PCGS plastic with a CAC sticker, it's not as valuable. I understand that in the current marketplace, these coins sell better and garner a premium. So if you are a dealer or like to move inventory, this makes sense at the moment. But what about learning grading the coin for yourself? I've seen illogical statements about the PCGS or PCGS/CAC thing and I just don't think it makes sense.

 

Saw a PCGS MS65 being sold on eBay and the guy put in his comments, buy this coin and cross it to NGC and you'll get one grade point higher!

 

I've read a comment today ATS where someone posted and I paraphrase "It's good you crossed it over to PCGS and a deserved resting place. No one will bother to crack it out again?

 

I was at a coin show 2 weekends ago. Dealer bought a huge hoard of 1896 Morgans last summer. I believe it was in the neighborhood of 30K coins. He said he still had 8K left to send for grading. Because of the quantity, he was initially sent them to NGC and PCGS. He felt NGC were too stringent on giving MS66 and MS67 grades, so he stopped sending coins to them. The coins he felt were undergraded were cracked and sent to PCGS where he got the grades he was looking for.

 

So my confusion comes from those who aspire to be Numismatists, yet believe the PCGS/CAC offering is the holy grail. I've looked at many coins in both holders with CAC stickers that I didn't like and passed on them. Isn't that we're supposed to be doing? Using the TPG and the CAC sticker as a reference point to begin the assessment?

 

I own coins in both holders. I prefer the look of the NGC holder, but I don't hesitate to buy a PCGS holdered coin either. I think the edge view holder looks more professional. I know it shouldn't matter what the holder looks like compared to the coin, but I compare it to a nice work of art. If you found a beautiful oil painting, would you put it in a cheap black acrylic frame or would you have it done properly?

 

I also think it's dangerous to believe that companies in a leadership position in their industry will always maintain that status. The business world is littered with companies that are now a shell of what they were in their heyday/zenith. In the case of this hobby, I think buying the coin, not the holder is the sagest long term advice I've learned.

 

 

 

 

[rrantique]

For the heck of it, I came back to re-read this thread and tried to approach it objectively. That may not be possible, though. Maybe I am just in a bad mood. Maybe these sorts of garbled, contorted discussions put me in a bad mood.

 

What I came away with the second time through is a feeling that borders on hopelessness over the absurd complications that have infiltrated the hobby and, in my mind, corrupted it almost beyond recognition. We have strayed so far from collecting coins that we might as well be collecting walnuts off of trees - CERTIFIED ad-nauseum and opinionated to death, of course. I just HAVE to know whether my walnuts are better than your walnuts even if they pretty much look exactly the same!

 

There was a time when you needed a certain date for your set, could simply come to agreement with a seller on a grade, look for that column in a price guide, and pass or play.

 

Apparently, that's ... just ... not ... good enough.

 

TODAY, you have to worry about how many stars, what sort of pluses, which brand of plastic, what flavor of sticker (green? gold? blue smiley??), which auction house's records to use, and on top of all that, what generation of slab it's in! Is it B quality? B+? C minus? Is it made with triple-whipple grade-A eggs??? Perhaps worst of all, it's paramount to get a never-ending supply of OPINIONS, because your own just won't cut it. Second opinion? not enough! Third party opinion? still not enough! FOURTH opinion? getting closer . EIGHTEEN OPINIONS???? Well, a few more can't hurt juuuuuust to make sure we get it exactly right.

 

Good grief!!!! WILL IT EVER STOP?!?!?

 

Will you EVER have ENOUGH second, third, fourth, eighteenth and 521st extra opinions to go around? Will I ever even get to learn how to decide for myself whether a coin is "good enough" for me?

 

Gosh, something simple like a walnut brownie sounds so quaint, doesn't it? But nope, I'll need to get at least twelve opinions from other people telling me whether or not it actually tastes good.

 

Of course, "they" will go to great lengths to convince me that if I don't get twelve opinions on the quality of the brownie, I just might get the taste wrong and pay too much for it. *sarcastic* thanks *sarcastic* for all these extra layers of insurance.

 

All I wanted was a stupid little walnut brownie. But first I had to get four opinions, a sticker, a 17.5% auction bidder's premium and shipping and handling charges on top of that. OOPS, Pay Pal wants a little, too. Better call my Accountant.

 

Think I'll just have some jello for dessert - they can't put a sticker on that.

 

CAN THEY?!?

 

over .

 

 

Well that about covers OPINIONS. (thumbs u

[bochiman]

 

There was a time when you needed a certain date for your set, could simply come to agreement with a seller on a grade, look for that column in a price guide, and pass or play.

 

Apparently, that's ... just ... not ... good enough.

 

TODAY, you have to worry about how many stars, what sort of pluses, which brand of plastic, what flavor of sticker (green? gold? blue smiley??), which auction house's records to use, and on top of all that, what generation of slab it's in! Is it B quality? B+? C minus? Is it made with triple-whipple grade-A eggs??? Perhaps worst of all, it's paramount to get a never-ending supply of OPINIONS, because your own just won't cut it. Second opinion? not enough! Third party opinion? still not enough! FOURTH opinion? getting closer . EIGHTEEN OPINIONS???? Well, a few more can't hurt juuuuuust to make sure we get it exactly right.

 

 

No, some of us CAN appreciate the coin and the price (or walk if we don't agree with it) and, at the same time, can make our own decisions on whether or not we care if it is stickered or slabbed. I prefer slabbed on coins 3 figures and over...and maybe even on $50+ depending on the reason and the coin.

 

I prefer a sticker if it is something I am not as comfortable in.

 

I have bought, and will still buy, coins that are raw and coins that are slabbed but not stickered.

 

 

Not all of us feel it is an either/or or we have to whine about it to try to convince others our way is the right way.

 

A wise numismatist once said "if you want it in a certain holder at a certain grade, buy it in that holder". If you don't care about the holder, then buy the coin. Sometimes, if you luck out or are patient, you CAN buy the coin AND the holder.

 

Too many anti-PCGS and/or anti-CAC fail to see that some people want it a certain way and SHOULD buy it the way they want. Maybe it is because it deprives them of a larger audience when they sell? Shouldn't matter, should it.

 

Nothing you buy will affect me (unless we are bidding against each other) and nothing I buy will affect you (me/you are generic for this purpose). So, why argue about it?

[leeg]

Some good post's lately in this thread.

 

(thumbs u

[Hard Times]

 

There was a time when you needed a certain date for your set, could simply come to agreement with a seller on a grade, look for that column in a price guide, and pass or play.

 

Apparently, that's ... just ... not ... good enough.

 

TODAY, you have to worry about how many stars, what sort of pluses, which brand of plastic, what flavor of sticker (green? gold? blue smiley??), which auction house's records to use, and on top of all that, what generation of slab it's in! Is it B quality? B+? C minus? Is it made with triple-whipple grade-A eggs??? Perhaps worst of all, it's paramount to get a never-ending supply of OPINIONS, because your own just won't cut it. Second opinion? not enough! Third party opinion? still not enough! FOURTH opinion? getting closer . EIGHTEEN OPINIONS???? Well, a few more can't hurt juuuuuust to make sure we get it exactly right.

 

 

No, some of us CAN appreciate the coin and the price (or walk if we don't agree with it) and, at the same time, can make our own decisions on whether or not we care if it is stickered or slabbed. I prefer slabbed on coins 3 figures and over...and maybe even on $50+ depending on the reason and the coin.

 

I prefer a sticker if it is something I am not as comfortable in.

 

I have bought, and will still buy, coins that are raw and coins that are slabbed but not stickered.

 

 

Not all of us feel it is an either/or or we have to whine about it to try to convince others our way is the right way.

 

A wise numismatist once said "if you want it in a certain holder at a certain grade, buy it in that holder". If you don't care about the holder, then buy the coin. Sometimes, if you luck out or are patient, you CAN buy the coin AND the holder.

 

Too many anti-PCGS and/or anti-CAC fail to see that some people want it a certain way and SHOULD buy it the way they want. Maybe it is because it deprives them of a larger audience when they sell? Shouldn't matter, should it.

 

Nothing you buy will affect me (unless we are bidding against each other) and nothing I buy will affect you (me/you are generic for this purpose). So, why argue about it?

 

Bochi, you make some very good points and I especially like James rant - he and I are on the same page these days on many things it appears . The problem with your perspective on 'Too many anti-PCGS and/or anti-CAC fail to see' is that really what it is about is marketing and many people have bought into it hook line and sinker without being able to evaluate a coin for themselves. What is frustrating to me is that if we don't follow along with the marketing, the value of our coins when we try to sell are perceived to be less if the don't have the PCGS plastic and a CAC bean and this is really independent of what coins grade really is and whether it is A, B, or C, which is many cases is very subject to individual opinion. So I would ask you, whatever happened to evaluating coins for what they are rather than their plastic and stickers? That is why many are frustrated - like Bill Jones says, how can we let one man control the value of our coins which is what is going on right now with the CAC marketing? That is what we are doing through the excellent marketing that so many adhere to.

 

Best, HT

[coinman1794]

For the heck of it, I came back to re-read this thread and tried to approach it objectively. That may not be possible, though. Maybe I am just in a bad mood. Maybe these sorts of garbled, contorted discussions put me in a bad mood.

 

What I came away with the second time through is a feeling that borders on hopelessness over the absurd complications that have infiltrated the hobby and, in my mind, corrupted it almost beyond recognition. We have strayed so far from collecting coins that we might as well be collecting walnuts off of trees - CERTIFIED ad-nauseum and opinionated to death, of course. I just HAVE to know whether my walnuts are better than your walnuts even if they pretty much look exactly the same!

 

There was a time when you needed a certain date for your set, could simply come to agreement with a seller on a grade, look for that column in a price guide, and pass or play.

 

Apparently, that's ... just ... not ... good enough.

 

TODAY, you have to worry about how many stars, what sort of pluses, which brand of plastic, what flavor of sticker (green? gold? blue smiley??), which auction house's records to use, and on top of all that, what generation of slab it's in! Is it B quality? B+? C minus? Is it made with triple-whipple grade-A eggs??? Perhaps worst of all, it's paramount to get a never-ending supply of OPINIONS, because your own just won't cut it. Second opinion? not enough! Third party opinion? still not enough! FOURTH opinion? getting closer . EIGHTEEN OPINIONS???? Well, a few more can't hurt juuuuuust to make sure we get it exactly right.

 

Good grief!!!! WILL IT EVER STOP?!?!?

 

Will you EVER have ENOUGH second, third, fourth, eighteenth and 521st extra opinions to go around? Will I ever even get to learn how to decide for myself whether a coin is "good enough" for me?

 

Gosh, something simple like a walnut brownie sounds so quaint, doesn't it? But nope, I'll need to get at least twelve opinions from other people telling me whether or not it actually tastes good.

 

Of course, "they" will go to great lengths to convince me that if I don't get twelve opinions on the quality of the brownie, I just might get the taste wrong and pay too much for it. *sarcastic* thanks *sarcastic* for all these extra layers of insurance.

 

All I wanted was a stupid little walnut brownie. But first I had to get four opinions, a sticker, a 17.5% auction bidder's premium and shipping and handling charges on top of that. OOPS, Pay Pal wants a little, too. Better call my Accountant.

 

Think I'll just have some jello for dessert - they can't put a sticker on that.

 

CAN THEY?!?

 

over .

 

On opinions: the fact that it's so hard to get all those various opinions to agree with one another tells you everything you need to know