doctored "puttied" gold coins

[Crohnos01]

I was recently talking to a dealer about a 1926 gold quarter eagle. He noted that at a recent HA, a third of all the coins for sale of this date/type had been puttied or doctored, both raw and in slabs. That kind of shocked me, and then I realized, I wouldn't even know what to look for on a gold coin as a tell for it being puttied. So I have two questions: first, do you agree with assessment that there are a high number of doctored '26 gold coins as this dealer asserts and second; what do you look for to tell if a coin has been puttied?

[wdrob]

Dwight,

You might find this thread helpful in watching my progress removing the putty from a $10 Indian Eagle.

 

In this thread there are pictures of the progression as I enlisted the help from other forum experts, first to ID what was wrong with the piece, and second how to go about correcting the problem. Kenny was extremely helpful in explaining how to go about using the acetone to remove it.

 

The coin came out great in the end.

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I was recently talking to a dealer about a 1926 gold quarter eagle. He noted that at a recent HA, a third of all the coins for sale of this date/type had been puttied or doctored, both raw and in slabs. That kind of shocked me, and then I realized, I wouldn't even know what to look for on a gold coin as a tell for it being puttied. So I have two questions: first, do you agree with assessment that there are a high number of doctored '26 gold coins as this dealer asserts and second; what do you look for to tell if a coin has been puttied?

The amount of hype and blaring warnings has caused perception to greatly exaggerate how many gold coins have actually been puttied. I think the percent is tiny overall. However, what can happen is for someone to get duped into buying a number of them by certain "distributors" whose job it is to fence puttied gold. So to those few unfortunate buyers, there may well appear to be an unfairly high percent of doctored gold coins.

 

That said, we did have one collection come in within the last year that had a disproportionately large percent of puttied coins. I would guess out of, say, 50 certified coins, perhaps 20 were puttied. Interestingly, most of the coins were in old holders, mostly OGH holders, but a few NGC fatties as well.

 

When we believe coins to be puttied, we mention that in our descriptions, but it can be very difficult to detect. It's too bad there are people out there who will stoop to such measures to fleece coin collectors.

[jom]

I had a $10 Indian that changed in the PCGS 64 holder. PCGS cleaned it up and it came back MS64 and still looked nice.

 

The question this is: what is the point of the putty if it doesn't "help" the grade?

 

jom

[cpm9ball]

The question this is: what is the point of the putty if it doesn't "help" the grade?

 

jom

 

Some sellers would prefer to hedge their bets. I would think if there is only one bidder, it wouldn't matter, but if there are two or more bidders, it could make a substantial difference in price.

 

Chris

[Crohnos01]

Thanks Bill for the link. That was indeed very I informative. So basically what I think I now understand is the "tells" to a puttied coin are an unnatural color and smooth fields?

 

What exactly is the "putty" that these crackpots put on coins anyway?

[MarkFeld]

I had a $10 Indian that changed in the PCGS 64 holder. PCGS cleaned it up and it came back MS64 and still looked nice.

 

The question this is: what is the point of the putty if it doesn't "help" the grade?

 

 

 

jom

 

It can help the grade, by masking flaws.

[jom]

I had a $10 Indian that changed in the PCGS 64 holder. PCGS cleaned it up and it came back MS64 and still looked nice.

 

The question this is: what is the point of the putty if it doesn't "help" the grade?

 

 

 

jom

 

It can help the grade, by masking flaws.

 

I suppose that is the idea but I just see the foggy gunk and think it just makes things worse...

 

I've only noticed this stuff used on Saints, Libs and $10 Indians (my OWN as it turned out!) but I've heard it's somewhat of an epidemic as the substance is "turning" in the holders over long periods of time. I've only heard about the issue with gold so I'm wondering if it is possible it might have been used with silver coins as well? Or does the putty only come in a color that might match up with gold better to get it by the graders?

 

jom

[wdrob]

What exactly is the "putty" that these crackpots put on coins anyway?

 

I can't answer that. I have heard of 'Doctors' using bondo that one would use when doing auto body work but I don't know how true that would be.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Thanks Bill for the link. That was indeed very I informative. So basically what I think I now understand is the "tells" to a puttied coin are an unnatural color and smooth fields?

 

What exactly is the "putty" that these crackpots put on coins anyway?

 

In reference to the linked thread, Bill Jones and I commented on the surfaces because it is rare to find a coin in that grade with surfaces that smooth, warranting further scrutiny, but that alone is not dispositive. When putty is applied, it is difficult to detect until it later turns, often producing discolored areas. Often these discolored areas look cloudy or milky looking. Legend had a really good photo of an extreme case of a $10 Indian I believe. I hope I can find it. Most coins aren't that noticeable, but still, it's useful for showing you some of the characteristics (i.e. even if at a more blatant level).

 

And to be fair, at least one dealer member disagree with Bill Jones and I that the coin was puttied. Regardless, there appeared to be some sort organic debris that was removed through an acetone bath. Putty is a problem, as pointed out, because it can mask flaws. Often times, a perfectly "healthy" coin lurks underneath and a doctor applied putty with hopes to improve the grade. In such cases, the putty can be removed through an acetone bath usually. (If this doesn't work, a light dip can be performed). In other cases, there are more serious problems underneath. So you never know what you are going to get. I would stay away from puttied coins all together (don't buy them with the intent to do a homemade restoration job), and if you end up with one in a TPG slab, send it back in and allow the grading service to remove the putty and reslab it or to otherwise invoke the guarantee.

 

Also, this is one of the reasons why I can see many gold collectors favoring PCGS OGH and NGC older holders over more recent holders. Putty is difficult to detect until it turns, so the longer the coin remains undisturbed in the slab without evidence of a problem, the lower the odds that it has been puttied. PCGS's secure plus tier also uses chemical spectroscopy methods to analyze a coin's surface and should be able to weed out putty.

 

Edited to add images: Note that not all examples are this blatant.

 

 

[PerryHall]

I had a $10 Indian that changed in the PCGS 64 holder. PCGS cleaned it up and it came back MS64 and still looked nice.

 

The question this is: what is the point of the putty if it doesn't "help" the grade?

 

 

 

jom

 

It can help the grade, by masking flaws.

 

.........especially hairline scratches which can limit mint state grades.

[MarkFeld]

I had a $10 Indian that changed in the PCGS 64 holder. PCGS cleaned it up and it came back MS64 and still looked nice.

 

The question this is: what is the point of the putty if it doesn't "help" the grade?

 

 

 

jom

 

It can help the grade, by masking flaws.

 

I suppose that is the idea but I just see the foggy gunk and think it just makes things worse...

 

I've only noticed this stuff used on Saints, Libs and $10 Indians (my OWN as it turned out!) but I've heard it's somewhat of an epidemic as the substance is "turning" in the holders over long periods of time. I've only heard about the issue with gold so I'm wondering if it is possible it might have been used with silver coins as well? Or does the putty only come in a color that might match up with gold better to get it by the graders?

 

jom

 

You're talking about "foggy gunk" on the ones that have turned, and which you can therefore see. But understandably, you're ignoring all of the ones which have not turned and which are and will be undetectable until they turn. So you have probably "seen" many puttied coins, but not noticed many or most of them.

[Crohnos01]

Wow... Those are some great illustrative examples. Thanks for uploading those for me. I can really see the affected areas you mentioned. Ok, so I think I'm starting to get the idea now. This is all kind of scary to me; that an inexperienced collector of gold like myself could easily be duped especially if the online photos are bad and/or the doctoring has recently been done.

[BillJones]

I was recently talking to a dealer about a 1926 gold quarter eagle. He noted that at a recent HA, a third of all the coins for sale of this date/type had been puttied or doctored, both raw and in slabs. That kind of shocked me, and then I realized, I wouldn't even know what to look for on a gold coin as a tell for it being puttied. So I have two questions: first, do you agree with assessment that there are a high number of doctored '26 gold coins as this dealer asserts and second; what do you look for to tell if a coin has been puttied?

 

First, I was not aware of a huge hoard of 1926 quarter eagles coming on the market all in the same auction. If there were three or six coins in the auction and one or two of them had been allegedly puttied, that would hardly seem to provide sufficient evidence to label it as "an epidemic." The putty problem is a real one to be sure, but that does not mean that a third or some other significant fraction of the coins offered for sale have had the treatment. It's one more thing we have to look for, and on coins like the Panama - Pacific fifty dollar gold coins, it's something of a concern, BUT there is really no reason to ruin the market for gold coins over concerns surrounding this problem.

[CSdot]

Bill,

 

The $50 PanPac is one of my dream coins. Being a dealer for 50 years, I bet you have come across one or two. I would love to have one of each, but unfortunately I am not at that point in my collecting career. Plus, at what they are going for now, I might prefer million dollar classic cars.

 

[EVillageProwler]

I own one gold coin in my collection. It's a (dark side) 17th century ducat from Silesia, and as expected has fantastic eye appeal and a high slabbed grade by a respected TPG. However, it also has traces of red wax indicating it was used as a plate coin in an old-time catalog.

 

While I'm not completely past the putty gestation period in the holder, I am somewhat comforted by the notion that someone long ago thought this coin was special enough to plate.

 

If only I were able to trace this coin's provenance... If you want to help, contact me offline via email or via PM.

 

EVP

[CSdot]

EVP- What is a plate coin?

[BillJones]

Bill,

 

The $50 PanPac is one of my dream coins. Being a dealer for 50 years, I bet you have come across one or two. I would love to have one of each, but unfortunately I am not at that point in my collecting career. Plus, at what they are going for now, I might prefer million dollar classic cars.

 

 

I have both of those coins in MS-64, CAC. The round one is NGC graded and the octagonal one is a PCGS. The purchases of those two coins were the only times I went out of my way to buy CAC approved pieces because of the putty concerns.

 

A well known dealer, who an expert on commemorative coins, told one of my customers, when I was a dealer, not to buy any Pan-Pac $50 gold coins because so many of them had been puttied. That didn't help me to sell him one of those coins to him to say the least. When I had been looking to find one for him I did see a couple of pieces that had been "improved" that were in certified, so I knew that it was a concern.

[BillJones]

EVP- What is a plate coin?

 

It is coin that has been used for a picture that is in a reference work. If it is a major reference work, it can make the coin easier to sell, perhaps at a higher price.

 

I have several plate coins in my collection, but I don't think I paid any extra for them. A couple of them I discovered that they were plate coins after I have bought them. As time goes on, and the books are updated or replaced, the fact that a piece has been a plate coin becomes less important unless the coin is used again for a picture in the new books.

[jom]

I had a $10 Indian that changed in the PCGS 64 holder. PCGS cleaned it up and it came back MS64 and still looked nice.

 

The question this is: what is the point of the putty if it doesn't "help" the grade?

 

 

 

jom

 

It can help the grade, by masking flaws.

 

I suppose that is the idea but I just see the foggy gunk and think it just makes things worse...

 

I've only noticed this stuff used on Saints, Libs and $10 Indians (my OWN as it turned out!) but I've heard it's somewhat of an epidemic as the substance is "turning" in the holders over long periods of time. I've only heard about the issue with gold so I'm wondering if it is possible it might have been used with silver coins as well? Or does the putty only come in a color that might match up with gold better to get it by the graders?

 

jom

 

You're talking about "foggy gunk" on the ones that have turned, and which you can therefore see. But understandably, you're ignoring all of the ones which have not turned and which are and will be undetectable until they turn. So you have probably "seen" many puttied coins, but not noticed many or most of them.

 

Although I wouldn't say "ignore" is an entirely accurate word for it but that's the gist of it.

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

I had a $10 Indian that changed in the PCGS 64 holder. PCGS cleaned it up and it came back MS64 and still looked nice.

 

The question this is: what is the point of the putty if it doesn't "help" the grade?

 

 

 

jom

 

It can help the grade, by masking flaws.

 

I suppose that is the idea but I just see the foggy gunk and think it just makes things worse...

 

I've only noticed this stuff used on Saints, Libs and $10 Indians (my OWN as it turned out!) but I've heard it's somewhat of an epidemic as the substance is "turning" in the holders over long periods of time. I've only heard about the issue with gold so I'm wondering if it is possible it might have been used with silver coins as well? Or does the putty only come in a color that might match up with gold better to get it by the graders?

 

jom

 

You're talking about "foggy gunk" on the ones that have turned, and which you can therefore see. But understandably, you're ignoring all of the ones which have not turned and which are and will be undetectable until they turn. So you have probably "seen" many puttied coins, but not noticed many or most of them.

 

Although I wouldn't say "ignore" is an entirely accurate word for it but that's the gist of it.

 

jom

 

You're right. Instead of saying "you're ignoring", I should have said "you're unaware of".

[DaveG]

To me, Puttied gold coins are just another reason to prefer coins in old holders!

[jom]

To me, Puttied gold coins are just another reason to prefer coins in old holders!

 

Instead of relying on holders I'd rather learn how to detect the putty BEFORE it turns...then you can avoid it OR at least know what you are getting.

 

Any expert advice from anyone on this?

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

To me, Puttied gold coins are just another reason to prefer coins in old holders!

 

Instead of relying on holders I'd rather learn how to detect the putty BEFORE it turns...then you can avoid it OR at least know what you are getting.

 

Any expert advice from anyone on this?

 

jom

 

If (as I am under the impression that) the grading companies can't do it, I don't like your odds.

[jom]

To me, Puttied gold coins are just another reason to prefer coins in old holders!

 

Instead of relying on holders I'd rather learn how to detect the putty BEFORE it turns...then you can avoid it OR at least know what you are getting.

 

Any expert advice from anyone on this?

 

jom

 

If (as I am under the impression that) the grading companies can't do it, I don't like your odds.

 

Neither do I but it's probably a good thing to learn...if possible. But Bill Jones did imply he used CAC on some purchases which leads me to believe JA might have some advice on this. If he does another CAC online discussion I think I'll ask him.

 

jom

[RWB]

Any alteration of the type suggested is wrong.

[BillJones]

Does anyone know if the PCGS "sniffer" is able to pick up the smell of putty or the gold colored stuff they use to cover it? If it does I would think that PCGS would use the "sniffer" on a gold coins as a matter of policy, not as an extra service. It would certainly give them a leg up in the gold coin grading business.

[RWB]

Interesting -- it would make a good research article to explore what can be detected and how successful that detection has been in a commercial environment.

[wdrob]

It is a shame to see such a scarce coin ruined. The coin on the right was after the putty was removed using acetone and I consider it to have been saved.
I wonder if the one on the left could be saved as well or if it is too far gone.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Does anyone know if the PCGS "sniffer" is able to pick up the smell of putty or the gold colored stuff they use to cover it? If it does I would think that PCGS would use the "sniffer" on a gold coins as a matter of policy, not as an extra service. It would certainly give them a leg up in the gold coin grading business.

 

Yes, the sniffer will detect putty, and I do think PCGS will go the route that you suggest in the future as they realize that the amount of payouts potentially exceeds increased revenue from charging for it.