2009 Ultra High Relief Double Eagle

[DaveG]

Attention: Dave Lange

 

What do you mean "a surface of 995 gold?" The alloy should be constant throughout on the originals. The only thing that would raise the fineness at the surface would be a chemical dip that extracted the copper, and I don't remember reading about this in your book. Did I miss something?

 

 

See page 245 of RoAC, 1905-1908 for Roger's brief mention of the acid treatment of these coins.

[GoldFinger1969]

Well, mystery solved...the premium for the listings earlier in this thread are strictly about the "First Strike" and "Early Release" monikers. PCGS MS70 PL coins are going for about the same $4,500 that an NGC coin is (which makes sense).

 

So the idiocy is strictly on the gimmick of believing you got the 1st coin off the presses.....

[GoldFinger1969]

Insanity Confirmed: Apparently, in 2010 a "First Strike" or "Early Release" designated coin 2009 UHR MS70 PL went for $30,000 on Ebay.

 

Now I've seen everything......

[CSdot]

Insanity Confirmed: Apparently, in 2010 a "First Strike" or "Early Release" designated coin 2009 UHR MS70 PL went for $30,000 on Ebay.

 

Now I've seen everything......

 

That is crazy! I was at the Amelia Island car show this weekend and watched classic cars sell for not much more than that figure. I also saw cars sell for many multiples of that, but we are talking about a modern coin, whose value is derived solely from a slip of paper in a piece of plastic.

[GoldFinger1969]

That is crazy! I was at the Amelia Island car show this weekend and watched classic cars sell for not much more than that figure. I also saw cars sell for many multiples of that, but we are talking about a modern coin, whose value is derived solely from a slip of paper in a piece of plastic.

There can never be anymore "First Strike" or "Early Release" designations and that was known in 2010, since PCGS/NGC would not accept such a grading option after 30 days from the 1st Day of Official Release.

 

Basically, this is a shipping/mailing distinction and I can't for the life of me figure out how anybody with $$$ or any serious collector (not necessarily the same thing) would value having one of these coins vs. 4-5 (or more) of the regular UHR's or even 10-12 (or more) regular bullion coins.

 

At least paying up for MS70 and/or PL you are getting 'something' of value, however much we determine it is worth. Why a shipping -- not striking -- date is important beyond maybe an extra 1-2% is beyond me. At least others have pointed out this insanity.

 

I sometimes think that if I had my 3-year old nephew at one time get chocolate stains on a slab and designated that there was a limited quantity of said slabs, that they could/would command huge premiums, too.

 

Come to think of it.....

[GoldFinger1969]

$10,700 Final Bidding -- and the Reserve Wasn't Met:

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=251470949305

[CSdot]

$10,700 Final Bidding -- and the Reserve Wasn't Met:

 

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=251470949305

 

I don't get it? What's that saying about a fool and his money?

[GoldFinger1969]

$10,700 Final Bidding -- and the Reserve Wasn't Met:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=251470949305

I don't get it? What's that saying about a fool and his money?

I really don't know who would be buying that coin at that price.

 

I understand 'the masses' paying hundreds for a coin worth $50 like on the TV Coin Shows. But anybody willing to shell out 5-figures for a coin would presumably know what they were buying. And if they Googled "First Strike" or "Early Release" they would have to run into tons of articles, message board posts, and warnings about paying up more than a miniscule amount for something of dubious (at best) merit.

 

At least the MS70 and PL designation are something TANGIBLE. All you have with the other monikers is some statement about shipping.

 

It's like everyone got their UHR 2009 on the same day, and then paying more for those folks lucky to have been 1st on the UPS or FedX delivery route !

 

This really could be the dumbest buying of something worth nothing or next-to-nothing that I can recall, in terms of the premium AND the absolute dollars involved.

 

Unless, of course, it's somebody from the Forbes 400 who has 1 million times the money involved and figured he get a kick out of getting folks like us to wonder who could be buying the coin at that premium.

[RWB]

I wonder what one made on the first day of production -- the real first day -- would bring?

[GoldFinger1969]

I wonder what one made on the first day of production -- the real first day -- would bring?

Roger, that's the thing as you probably know from your outstanding history of mint actions: there's NO RECORD of actual 'first strikes' except for the ones they put in the museums. The rest were accumulated and hoarded (!) and then shipped at the same time. About 40% of the entire production of 115,000 was ordered/shipped that 1st month, as I recall off the top of my head.

 

I think NGC has graded like 80-100 as "Early Release" and PCGS maybe 8-10 as "1st Strike" and since there aren't any plans to make any more UHR's anytime soon -- and certainly no more 2009's -- you have this made-up 'scarcity' factor.

 

The quality actual Saint Gaudens original coin you could buy with the $10,000+ instead of that coin is mind-baffling.

[CSdot]

 

The quality actual Saint Gaudens original coin you could buy with the $10,000+ instead of that coin is mind-baffling.

 

You could buy an original 1907 high relief Saint for that type of money. At $19,500 or whatever his BIN was, I bet you could even get a mint state example.

[GoldFinger1969]

You could buy an original 1907 high relief Saint for that type of money. At $19,500 or whatever his BIN was, I bet you could even get a mint state example.

 

I've seen high-reliefs from $10,000 - $30,000 on Ebay (haven't checked auction sites) but since that's a wee bit out of my price range, I haven't paid too much attention.

[GoldFinger1969]

In 2012, a similar coin went for just over $20,000:

 

http://www.coinworld.com/insights-temp/2009-ultra-high-relief-double-eagle-realizes-.html

 

A 2009 Saint-Gaudens, Ultra High Relief gold $20 double eagle auctioned Sept. 30 brought a price believed to be the highest paid for an example of the issue.

 

An unidentified East Coast collector paid $20,903.30 to acquire the coin in an online sale conducted by GreatCollections (www.greatcollections.com). The price included a 10 percent buyer’s fee.

 

The coin is graded Mint State 70 Prooflike, by Professional Coin Grading Service, and encapsulated by the third-party grading service with a First Strike designation on the grading insert.

 

GreatCollections President Ian Russell said Oct. 1 that to his knowledge, the price paid for the coin is the highest recorded.

 

“I don’t know of any other auction realizations close to this amount for this issue,” Russell said.

 

Russell said the coin sold by GreatCollections possesses the “trifecta” of having the highest numerical grade attainable at MS-70; the Prooflike superlative, having a superior finish bordering on Proof quality; and the First Strike designation, for being among the first examples delivered to collectors during the first 30 days of shipments from the U.S. Mint after the start of sales.

 

As of the Sept. 30 close of the GreatCollections auction, PCGS had certified just 26 coins PCGS MS-70 Prooflike First Strike.

 

The issue represents a Mint reproduction of one of the variants of sculptor Augustus Saint-Gaudens’ 1907 Ultra High Relief, Roman Numerals double eagle.

 

The U.S. Mint charged an initial price of $1,189 per coin when it went on sale on Jan. 22, 2009.

[GoldFinger1969]

If anybody is interested, there's an active bidding ending tonight for a 2009 UHR MS70 PL....these coins normally go for about $4,000 or so....asking prices on Ebay are usually about 10-15% higher but sellers are flexible.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262297349922?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Auction ends just before 10 PM EST. This is a PCGS graded coin, so it should sell for a slight premium to an NGC though I think for a modern coin that's ridiculous. Right now it's at $2,400.

 

I'm kind of surprised the current price is that low, but maybe there's gonna be a rush as we approach the auction deadline and it gets the price up closer to what is the recent FMV.

[GoldFinger1969]

Not sure why my previous post is showing up as almost 2 weeks ago, as I created it today. Let me bump the thread:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262297349922?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&rmvSB=true

[BillJones]

All I can say is that I paid $2,300 for a PCGS MS-70, and I am happy with it. I don't know about "First Strike" and "PL," and given the premiums they seem to bring, I'll pass.

[RWB]

"Proof-like" was not intentional. It was the result of using polished planchets that gradually altered the die faces.

[GoldFinger1969]

"Proof-like" was not intentional. It was the result of using polished planchets that gradually altered the die faces.

I haven't seen a good explanation from anybody, Roger -- not the dealers who specialize in them, not even Mint officials.

 

There appears to be an element of randomness involved. You didn't get all of the coins produced right after polishing having the PL look -- at least as far as I know.

Is it possible microscopic differences in the gold alloy content could account for the difference ?

[GoldFinger1969]

$3,725 for a PCGS MS70 PL:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262297349922?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&autorefresh=true

[RWB]

All I can tell you is how they were created. The dies were not intentionally polished to a semi-mirror finish.

 

How they occurred does not correlate with how they were packaged or distributed.

[GoldFinger1969]

All I can say is that I paid $2,300 for a PCGS MS-70, and I am happy with it. I don't know about "First Strike" and "PL," and given the premiums they seem to bring, I'll pass.

When did you buy yours, Bill ? I think that's pretty much been the market the last few years and even current Ebay auctions.

 

Supposedly, you CAN tell the difference between the PL and non-PL. The First Strike or Early Release premium is idiotic, IMO, unless you are super-rich and just like having the most unique coin no matter what, even when based on superficial dividing lines.

Article in Coin Week from a few years ago discussing the difference and the premiums:

 

http://news.coinupdate.com/proof-like-ultra-high-relief-double-eagle-gold-coins-0166/

[World Colonial]

The First Strike or Early Release premium is idiotic, IMO, unless you are super-rich and just like having the most unique coin no matter what, even when based on superficial dividing lines.

Article in Coin Week from a few years ago discussing the difference and the premiums:

 

http://news.coinupdate.com/proof-like-ultra-high-relief-double-eagle-gold-coins-0166/

 

First Strike and Early Release is a marketing gimmick and nothing more. Although few can tell the difference between a 69 and 70 in or out of the holder aside from the label, crack the coin out and no one could identify a First Strike or Early Release because there literally isn't a difference at all.

 

My recollection is that First Strike was incorrectly interpreted by some buyers as the "initial" coins struck by the Mint. But then since this isn't true as it's impossible to usually know (unless the Mint states so), they now use Early Release with an arbitrary cut-off date. Neither has or had anything to do with coin collecting.

[BillJones]

When did you buy yours, Bill ? I think that's pretty much been the market the last few years and even current Ebay auctions.

 

I bought it last July. I was getting quotes of over $3,000 in the years before that.

 

First Strike and Early Release is a marketing gimmick and nothing more.

 

Take this advice. People have been banned ATS for saying this. It's a point of view that you can never mention over there if you wish to continue posting. I hope I won't get banned here.

[GoldFinger1969]

The First Strike or Early Release premium is idiotic, IMO, unless you are super-rich and just like having the most unique coin no matter what, even when based on superficial dividing lines.Article in Coin Week from a few years ago discussing the difference and the premiums:http://news.coinupdate.com/proof-like-ultra-high-relief-double-eagle-gold-coins-0166/

First Strike and Early Release is a marketing gimmick and nothing more. Although few can tell the difference between a 69 and 70 in or out of the holder aside from the label, crack the coin out and no one could identify a First Strike or Early Release because there literally isn't a difference at all. My recollection is that First Strike was incorrectly interpreted by some buyers as the "initial" coins struck by the Mint. But then since this isn't true as it's impossible to usually know (unless the Mint states so), they now use Early Release with an arbitrary cut-off date. Neither has or had anything to do with coin collecting.

Exactly...if the Mint makes 50,000 coins and holds them in February and March....then releases them all on April 1st....20,000 coins total....no way to tell if a coin was struck on February 1st or March 29th....but if the ones made on March 29th get delivered first to buyers via mail and the ones from February 1st are sent out weeks or months later, then the ones from March 29th are "First Strike" or "Early Release."

[GoldFinger1969]

When did you buy yours, Bill ?Take this advice. People have been banned ATS for saying this. It's a point of view that you can never mention over there if you wish to continue posting. I hope I won't get banned here.

ATS ? What's that ?

 

I think both PCGS and NGC entered into some kind of resolution regarding the terminology. Personally, I had no problem with it though I could see how it could be misleading. As long as they disclose on their websites the criteria for the designations on their websites, I think they did enough.

 

The problem isn't with the TPGs. It's with some people valuing very rare coins like the 2009 UHR and charging a 100-500% premium for the designation. On more common coins like silver ASEs, it's just a few bucks extra which is quantitatively different.

[World Colonial]

ATS is shorthand for the PCGS Message Boards. I don't post there so I never use it.

 

 

[World Colonial]

Take this advice. People have been banned ATS for saying this. It's a point of view that you can never mention over there if you wish to continue posting. I hope I won't get banned here.

 

Well, if I am not allowed to talk about it, I won't. Still doesn't change what it is though.

 

If anyone wants these labels and finds value in them, that is their business. Why anyone cares is beyond my comprehension.

[World Colonial]

I think both PCGS and NGC entered into some kind of resolution regarding the terminology. Personally, I had no problem with it though I could see how it could be misleading. As long as they disclose on their websites the criteria for the designations on their websites, I think they did enough.

 

The problem isn't with the TPGs. It's with some people valuing very rare coins like the 2009 UHR and charging a 100-500% premium for the designation. On more common coins like silver ASEs, it's just a few bucks extra which is quantitatively different.

 

Your recollection is the same as mine and I agree with your first paragraph.

 

On your second paragraph, is or was that the market price? Or an ask price combined with a misrepresentation of what the label really means?

 

If the first, it is par for the course. If the second, sounds like a form of fraud by the seller (not the TPG).

[GoldFinger1969]

Take this advice. People have been banned ATS for saying this. It's a point of view that you can never mention over there if you wish to continue posting. I hope I won't get banned here.

Well, if I am not allowed to talk about it, I won't. Still doesn't change what it is though. If anyone wants these labels and finds value in them, that is their business. Why anyone cares is beyond my comprehension.

Like I said, if someone likes the designation -- like a Gold Label for a gold coin as opposed to plain white -- so be it. I can even understand paying a few bucks extra IF you like it.

 

What is bizzare to me is situations like the 2009 UHR where the FS or ER designation is the only difference between another coin (usually the premium MS70PL or MS70DPL) and that causes not a 10% or 50% or even 100% bump in the price but a 200-500% bump. Given that we are talking tens of thousands of dollars now and not the penny-change on a regular ASE, that is insane to me.

 

But I guess if the market will bear it...........

[GoldFinger1969]

On your second paragraph, is or was that the market price? Or an ask price combined with a misrepresentation of what the label really means?

Market price, though some people may have asked super-high prices and been deceptive. Or they may have honestly not known what they are selling.

 

You can see them on Ebay. You start out with silver bullion...then the silver ASE coin is a bit more....then a slabbed coin is a bit more....then the ER/FS designation costs a few bucks more depending on MS69 or MS70.

 

If the first, it is par for the course. If the second, sounds like a form of fraud by the seller (not the TPG).

I think the sellers may be deceptive thought I think most people now know what FS or ER means....most buyers know (or should)....it's just a question of caveat emptor.

 

I purchased the 2013 ASE Reverse Proof and Enhanced Finish. I believe they ONLY came (at that time?) with the ER or FS designation. Whatever, that's what I bought. I overpaid -- so I am out $50-$100 or so on the 2 coins. I knew what I was buying and I am a big boy.

 

I think the problem is when you have dumb buyers -- dealers or collectors -- who buy super-expensive stuff and/or lots of coins (trying to speculate and sell at higher prices later on) and when the market moves against them, they scream "FOUL" !!

 

I always say know what you are paying for when you pay a premium to the underlying bullion content, whether it's a Morgan Silver Dollar, Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle, or modern coins. If you like the coin and the price, fine. But understand the floor is the underlying metal in the coin, even if a collapse to that price is probably unlikely.