2009 Ultra High Relief Double Eagle

[GoldFinger1969]

Believe it or not, this coin re-invigorated my interest in coin collecting in general, and the Saint Gaudens $20 DE's in particular (sometimes I wish I had gotten re-invigorated by a less-expensive penny or nickel commemorative ).

 

Some of my fellow investment professionals who are into bullion mentioned the coin back in late-2009 and I decided to get one, too. I think it was the first time I ever bought directly from the U.S. Mint.

 

Any other 2009 UHR lovers out here ? The history of the 2009 recreation is almost as interesting as St. Gaudens' involvement back in 1907.

 

(click to enlarge)

[James_OldeTowne]

I personally think these 2009s are fantastic and although they were over-hyped, they are some of the very few coins that MIGHT live up to part of their hype.

[JIM F.]

The fact that they were restricted to 1 per household kept the telemarketers and bulk dealers from cornering the market. It would be nice if more mint products had such restrictions to allow wider distribution.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

The fact that they were restricted to 1 per household kept the telemarketers and bulk dealers from cornering the market. It would be nice if more mint products had such restrictions to allow wider distribution.

 

The household limit was dropped a few months before the coin stopped selling at the end of 2009. Some of my friends purchased as many as 10 UHR's.

[GoldFinger1969]

I personally think these 2009s are fantastic and although they were over-hyped, they are some of the very few coins that MIGHT live up to part of their hype.

 

In OGP they sell for about a 50-75% premium to bullion. If they are graded, MS69's get 100% and MS70's are getting 200-300% if PL.

[JIM F.]

The fact that they were restricted to 1 per household kept the telemarketers and bulk dealers from cornering the market. It would be nice if more mint products had such restrictions to allow wider distribution.

 

The household limit was dropped a few months before the coin stopped selling at the end of 2009. Some of my friends purchased as many as 10 UHR's.

 

I did not know that -- am I correct to assume that they sold out briefly after the limit was lifted?

 

In any event, I like the design and am glad the mint produced them for only 1 year.

[GoldFinger1969]

The household limit was dropped a few months before the coin stopped selling at the end of 2009. Some of my friends purchased as many as 10 UHR's.

I did not know that -- am I correct to assume that they sold out briefly after the limit was lifted?In any event, I like the design and am glad the mint produced them for only 1 year.

 

I believe they lifted the limit in September 2009 and I think they sold them up to December 31st. I bought mine right at the end of the year so there was no 'sell-out' -- if you wanted 1 or 20 of them, you apparently got it.

 

Just over 1/2 of the coins submitted to PCGS and NCG have been graded MS-70, BTW.

[CSdot]

I'm glad I got one. I am especially glad I got mine before someone lit the fuse on the prices.

[GoldFinger1969]

"The mintage of the 2009 Ultra High Relief Double Eagle Gold Coin was unlimited for one year, with the total number of coins struck based on demand. Only 2009-dated coins were minted.

 

The UHR Double Eagle went on sale January 22, 2009. After five days of release, the United States Mint recorded sales of more than 40,000 coins. By July, sales had reached more than 70,000 coins.

 

On July 27, 2009, the United States Mint raised the order limit for the coins. The limit was raised from one per household to ten coins per household. The limit was raised once again to 25 coins, and then removed completely. The increased order limits spurred additional sales of the coin.

 

Sales of the coin officially concluded on December 31, 2009. The last reported sales figure was 115,178."

[RWB]

Nice bullion pieces, but pale when compared to the originals which are .900 fine but with surface of .995 gold.

[DWLange]

What do you mean "a surface of 995 gold?" The alloy should be constant throughout on the originals. The only thing that would raise the fineness at the surface would be a chemical dip that extracted the copper, and I don't remember reading about this in your book. Did I miss something?

[GoldFinger1969]

Nice bullion pieces, but pale when compared to the originals which are .900 fine but with surface of .995 gold.

 

How did they make the surfaces of the original UHR's .995 gold ? They were able to alter the composition of the surface relative to the entire coin ? That was just for the UHRs', not for all the Saints that followed ?

 

The 1907 UHR pictures I have seen do look spectacular. I believe the press was 170 tons and needed 9 strikes; the 2009 coin only needed 1 strike from a 55-ton press.

[Kenneth F]

I bought my about a year after they were released.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

I bought my about a year after they were released.

 

Nice coin, Kenneth....the 70's trade at a pretty premium. I think the PCGS PL 70's can trade for $5,000+ though I have seen ASKING prices on Ebay as high as $20,000 !

[RWB]

David: Clarification -

1) typo -- .995 should read .975.

2) the normal diameter EHR pieces were acid dipped between each blow to remove annealing scale. They ended up with an almost pure gold surface.

 

The small diameter EHR pieces were treated in the same manner; however, it took fewer blows to bring up the design. Smithsonian tests of the surfaces of the two remaining examples, show an enriched gold of approx .975 - not enough to clearly distinguish these from the .900 full diameter pieces with .998 +/- surfaces. Since there are no small diameter pieces outside of the National Collection it’s mostly an academic point.

 

MCMVII high relief pieces occasionally enhanced surfaces, but it doesn't make a visual difference. Of the ones that have been tested, those from the normal rim (after mid-December 1907) seem to have more gold on the surface, but the test sample is small – 7 pieces.

 

[RWB]

Goldfinger -

"The 1907 UHR pictures I have seen do look spectacular. I believe the press was 170 tons and needed 9 strikes; the 2009 coin only needed 1 strike from a 55-ton press."

 

They were consistently called "Extremely High Relief" by the mint and collectors of the time. These were experiments. Seven blows were required on a medal press at about 100-140 tons. The alloy was .900 gold which is more difficult to work than .999 that was used for the modern bullion imitations. The hydraulic press was rated at 250 tons/sq1 in., but used at reduced pressure so that the metal would not be squeezed out of the collar. They were made at the West Point Mint and the first official pieces were struck in November 2008.

 

The original reductions and casts were not used to cut the hubs on a Janvier lathe. Also, there was only limited die cleaning, and virtually no touchup. The result was a bullion piece of inferior detail, sharpness and artistic appeal.

 

[trozau]

I had to solicit the help of 3 of my friends in able to get 4 coins ordered on the first day they went on sale. It is great opportunity to get an UHR St Gaudens double eagle at a reasonable premium.

[GoldFinger1969]

The original reductions and casts were not used to cut the hubs on a Janvier lathe. Also, there was only limited die cleaning, and virtually no touchup. The result was a bullion piece of inferior detail, sharpness and artistic appeal.

 

You mean as the die aged and was used more and more, right ?

 

I apologize if this is covered in your book, I PROMISE I will get to it (and send it to you for signing !).

[RWB]

Mint Director Moy deserves a lot a praise for getting this done. It is a nice imitation piece and it had to be bullion to keep Treasury and Congress happy.

[GoldFinger1969]

Mint Director Moy deserves a lot a praise for getting this done. It is a nice imitation piece and it had to be bullion to keep Treasury and Congress happy.

Yeah, I came across a piece from 2008 where they were going to consider using platinum or palladium because it was 1/2 the price of gold at the time.

 

Thank God they stayed with gold.

[RWB]

Re: "You mean as the die aged and was used more and more, right ?"

 

No. A new die - either fresh from it's final impression from a hub or cut by the mint's Micron tool - usually requires cleaning to remove burrs and debris. This is hand work and performend on most dies. For example, the 5oz silver coasters require a full day's work to cleanup each workign die.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Re: "You mean as the die aged and was used more and more, right ?" // No. A new die - either fresh from it's final impression from a hub or cut by the mint's Micron tool - usually requires cleaning to remove burrs and debris. This is hand work and performend on most dies. For example, the 5oz silver coasters require a full day's work to cleanup each workign die.

 

The only book I've read that talked somewhat about dies/presses/striking/lathes even somewhat is the little booklet that came with the 2009 UHR. Hopefully, some of the books in my On-Deck Circle (including yours) will go into this more in-depth.

 

Even if it's not directly related to coin collecting, it's good to know about the actual mechanics of making a coin.

[RWB]

"From Mine to Mint" will answer a lot of questions about US mint technology and equipment -- and likely raise new ones, too.

[DaveG]

GoldFinger,

 

If you're interested in the development of the original version of the 2009 Ultra High Relief double eagle, then you'll want to read Roger's Renaissance of American Coinage, 1905-1908, which discusses the St. Gaudens (and Pratt) gold coins, including the original pattern coin, of which more than a dozen were minted, but only two survive - both now in the Smithsonian.

 

The original pattern has a Judd number of J-1917 and a Pollock number of P-2007 (if you're interested in further research on these patterns).

[GoldFinger1969]

"From Mine to Mint" will answer a lot of questions about US mint technology and equipment -- and likely raise new ones, too.

 

You'll be signing mine before year-end, bet on it. (thumbs u

 

I'd actually buy a few more for friends/relatives who invest in gold, IF I knew for sure they'd read the book instead of letting it collect dust.

[GoldFinger1969]

GoldFinger, If you're interested in the development of the original version of the 2009 Ultra High Relief double eagle, then you'll want to read Roger's Renaissance of American Coinage, 1905-1908, which discusses the St. Gaudens (and Pratt) gold coins, including the original pattern coin, of which more than a dozen were minted, but only two survive - both now in the Smithsonian.The original pattern has a Judd number of J-1917 and a Pollock number of P-2007 (if you're interested in further research on these patterns).

 

Got it in the lineup, Dave, thanks for reminding me.

 

I have to read so much financial stuff daily/weekly it's tough for me to find time to read financial books. I'd say of the last 12-15 books I've bought, I have only actually read 1 or 2.

 

When I go on vacation or have a break later this year, I'm gonna knock off Roger's book(s) and a few others. Right now, I'm 1/2 way through QDB's Double Eagle Red Book and it's taken me a months to get that far.....

[GoldFinger1969]

Why is this MS-70 PL getting multiple bids and at $7,500 (reserve not met !):

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251470949305?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

And this MS-70 PL is going begging at $4,500:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141185383520?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

I know that PCGS sometimes trades at a slight premium and I know some people still value the First Strike whatchamacallit.....but a 67% premium for what appears to be 2 identically graded coins ?

 

What am I missing ?

[jpcienkus]

Why is this MS-70 PL getting multiple bids and at $7,500 (reserve not met !):

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251470949305?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

And this MS-70 PL is going begging at $4,500:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141185383520?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

I know that PCGS sometimes trades at a slight premium and I know some people still value the First Strike whatchamacallit.....but a 67% premium for what appears to be 2 identically graded coins ?

 

What am I missing ?

 

You're missing nothing. Both have PL designation too. At times, it's tough to make sense of bidding on eBay.

[GoldFinger1969]

[You're missing nothing. Both have PL designation too. At times, it's tough to make sense of bidding on eBay.

 

I'm used to seeing idiotic bidding on Ebay, but here you are probably dealing with well-informed buyers and/or collectors, as you are talking about prices in excess of $8,000. So that anybody is willing to pay such a huge premium when they can get the exact same coin in a similarly-rated slab/TPG grade is a bit perplexing.

 

I know about the slight PCGS vs. NGC premium, but this is ridiculous. This would be like in the stock market having "A" and "B" shares which normally trade at par to at worst a 5% discount suddenly trading at a 30-40% discount.

 

The only thing I can thing of is that the "First Strike" designation is maybe confusing some people who think it's one of the first to come off the press/mint.

 

It's INSANITY, as Estelle Costanza used to say.

[GoldFinger1969]

Here's an MS69 PL from NGC that did get a bid in the mid-6's:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-Ultra-High-Relief-20-Gold-Double-Eagle-NGC-EARLY-RELEASES-MS-69-PL-/331144516276?pt=US_Bullion_Coins&hash=item4d19c052b4

 

It appears that the "First Strike" or "Early Release" designation is still commanding a premium, for whatever reason. The MS70 PL from NGC isn't "Early Release" yet costs $2,000 less than the MS69 PL.

 

Unreal....