Just a beautiful coin

[Raisethis2]

I sent this off to our host about 3 weeks ago. I fully expect it to return in a body bag because my luck isn't good enough for this to grade. It is however the most beautiful dollar I own.

 

Opinions welcome. [/img]

[coinman_23885]

Detail wise it looks MS63, but I don't think the color is original. I think it will come back as uncirculated details.

[yonico]

Detail wise it looks MS63, but I don't think the color is original. I think it will come back as uncirculated details.

 

+1

 

FWIW, the reverse looks ok to me. The obverse does not.

[SWNGC]

63, if toning passes, really tough to tell from pics on the toning, but I think they might just let it through

[wdrob]

 

Wow!

 

I guess I am going to go against the grain here and say that I think it will slab problem free and based on the photos you provided I don't see why a MS65 STAR would be out of the question.

 

I think that coin is a really nice submission attempt. Good Luck!!!

 

 

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Looks UNC, questionable color to me. And that was before I read what you said, or saw any other responses.

[wdrob]

Looks UNC, questionable color to me. And that was before I read what you said, or saw any other responses.

 

Jason, could you please tell me why you think it is Questionable Color. Not just you, but others have voiced that same concern but we see Morgans very often with colors such as this that are graded problem free (I think).

 

Go easy on me since I am color blind and have a harder time than others with good color vision separating close shades.

 

 

Strike that.

 

I went to the full sized picture and I can now see why one might think it is questionable color.

 

By the way - Nice big photo to show all details.

 

 

[BillJones]

The reverse might pass as natural color, but the obverse sure won't. I've never seen that color on a naturally toned Morgan dollar. Sorry, but I'm afraid that one will come back, "Mint State details, questionable color."

[brg5658]

I think what people are perceiving as "non natural color" on the obverse is a function of your white balance being off. I think it will grade problem free. Below is my attempt (not super successful) of fixing the white balance. This would be much better handled at the time of photography instead of in post-processing.

 

[Raisethis2]

^^^^^^ THAT is just about exactly how it looks^^^^

 

 

 

Pale to almost a royal blue obverse with the red showing through as a crescent and above the hat. Thank you brg5658.

 

I saw one coin with similar color that was a Newman coin. Obviously, Newman runs good. Me.......................2% chance.

[johnny9434]

i like the reverse not the obverse. jmo

[brg5658]

^^^^^^ THAT is just about exactly how it looks^^^^

 

 

 

Pale to almost a royal blue obverse with the red showing through as a crescent and above the hat. Thank you brg5658.

 

I saw one coin with similar color that was a Newman coin. Obviously, Newman runs good. Me.......................2% chance.

 

Toned Morgans are a dime a dozen, and I don't see anything on this coin that looks much different from the hundreds of other toned Morgans I see in holders all the time.

 

If one of the people who say that it looks "unnatural" can expand a bit on what looks unnatural about it (or more relevant, what makes it market unacceptable. The crescent of toning on the obverse lower left corresponds with the crescent of toning on the reverse upper left. I don't see any "puddling" or other tell-tale signs of funny business, and the luster is strong. The blues and pinks on the obverse are quite common colors on Morgans, and I don't see any transition of colors that don't fit the "rules" (as laid out by some). There is even the classic "pull-away-toning" on the date and a couple of the stars on the obverse (supposedly, this type of toning can't be accomplished easily by chemicals). So, I see lots of signs of likely prolonged and "natural" toning over time, but I'm not seeing any classic signs of chemical or heat treated toning.

 

I'm not saying it's "natural" or "unnatural" -- but I'm not seeing anything that makes this coin obviously market unacceptable.

 

 

[Coindude]

even after Brandon fixed the color issues I still don't like the color on the obverse. More specifically the Crescent is of most concern. I'm not saying it's not MA and Brandon brings up good defenses for the coin but to me it's not the kind of color I would take a chance on.

[coinman_23885]

even after Brandon fixed the color issues I still don't like the color on the obverse. More specifically the Crescent is of most concern. I'm not saying it's not MA and Brandon brings up good defenses for the coin but to me it's not the kind of color I would take a chance on.

 

I agree. I am particularly concerned about the lack of elevation chromatics in the crescent region and the lack of a real color progression as the coin rapidly changes from that shade of blue (cobalt) to magenta and purple. Usually the transition is not as abrupt and often there are other colors in between. The color combination and pattern are troubling to me. The reverse looks MA to me, but I wouldn't consider the obverse MA. The pull away toning that Brandon alludes to is very limited, although I find it interesting on this coin. I still don't think that alone will save the coin, especially with the other regions alluded to previously. I have never seen a NT Morgan Dollar or MA Morgan Dollar (defined as accepted into a TPG holder) that looks like this coin.

[coinman_23885]

Would someone post links to the Newman coin that was referenced? I cannot seem to find it in Heritage's auction archive.

[BillJones]

Even after the "white balance" fix, I also do not like the obverse. I think that this is a better coin through chemistry, but what the heck?

 

The way many the toned dollar folks approach this area of the market, it does not seem to concern them whether the coin is original or not. They just want color. So each to their own, but it's not an area of collecting that I enjoy.

[MarkFeld]

The color, particularly on the obverse, does not look "natural" to me and I would be surprised it the coin ends up in a problm-free holder.

[physics-fan3.14]

I think what people are perceiving as "non natural color" on the obverse is a function of your white balance being off. I think it will grade problem free. Below is my attempt (not super successful) of fixing the white balance. This would be much better handled at the time of photography instead of in post-processing.

 

I think what people are perceiving as "non natural color" on the obverse is a combination of very unusual colors, an unnatural looking pattern, and just not looking right. The white balance "correction" did nothing to change that - and really only makes it look more unnatural, in my opinion. The biggest flags for me are the purple/red mixed in with the blue behind her cap (this is not a normal looking pattern), and the behaviour of the crescent at the bottom. A crescent is caused by a coin being over the top of another coin - I would not expect to see a crescent on one side, and then a well toned remainder of the coin. It just looks wrong.

[brg5658]

I think what people are perceiving as "non natural color" on the obverse is a function of your white balance being off. I think it will grade problem free. Below is my attempt (not super successful) of fixing the white balance. This would be much better handled at the time of photography instead of in post-processing.

 

I think what people are perceiving as "non natural color" on the obverse is a combination of very unusual colors, an unnatural looking pattern, and just not looking right. The white balance "correction" did nothing to change that - and really only makes it look more unnatural, in my opinion. The biggest flags for me are the purple/red mixed in with the blue behind her cap (this is not a normal looking pattern), and the behaviour of the crescent at the bottom. A crescent is caused by a coin being over the top of another coin - I would not expect to see a crescent on one side, and then a well toned remainder of the coin. It just looks wrong.

 

Fair enough, but I think many of these coins look just as suspect as this one. The combination of the teal/blue/purple colors are actually pretty common in combination -- and some textile toners in particular have that combination.

 

Also, this coin exhibits pull-away toning in the obverse toning around the date, which many people tout as an almost "sure" way of ruling out funny business. I'm not saying I agree with that assessment, but it's clearly there (see below -- contrast boosted image to show it).

 

 

I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit here, and my points being:

 

1) I don't think the images are a good representation of what the coin actually probably looks like in hand. The post hoc white balance adjustment can't fix some off-color problems.

 

2) I have seen much more suspect coins in problem-free holders. Thus, I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that this coin is any more suspect that some others.

 

3) I don't personally find the coin's toning all that attractive, but that isn't the point here. There are lots of problem-free toned coins that I find unattractive, that quite likely got that way by "natural" (market-acceptable) means.

 

[coinman_23885]

2) I have seen much more suspect coins in problem-free holders. Thus, I don't think it is a foregone conclusion that this coin is any more suspect that some others.

 

 

It happens. I wonder how many of those would holder upon resubmission.

[Raisethis2]

I looked this morning at the Newman auction. There was a similarly toned 1859 Seated Dime that may have been the coin I stumbled upon which caused me to conclude that maybe this was natural toning on the obverse after all. It may have been an entirely different coin altogether. It was months ago. I just don't know.

 

I've never seen something this striking before so I can't blame the graders if they conclude that it's questionable. As I said earlier, I give it a 2% chance of coming back MS 64 *. If it returns in a body bag, at least I'll have tried.

 

Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful consideration.

 

 

[Raisethis2]

I just got the word from NGC's Finalized, Imaged and Shipped Department that this coin was deemed Artificial toning. I'd hoped it would pass muster but I gave it only a 2% chance so I can't be too crushed.

 

Still...........

[yonico]

Sorry to hear that

 

I thought the reverse was ok, like I said, and I hoped for you that it will slab problem free..

 

better luck next time!

 

[wdrob]

 

I'd hoped it would pass muster but I gave it only a 2% chance so I can't be too crushed.

 

You shouldn't be either. I think that coin is a very nice coin and if it were mine I would stick it in an envelope and let it ride. At least that way you can physically take the coin out from time to time and enjoy it without a slab of plastic in the way.