Grading Comments On The Slabs

[GoldFinger1969]

I have noticed that PCGS and NGC will sometimes have 'comments' on the slabs that seems to expand upon the ratings. It seems to be more prevalent with older coins. I don't see this as much with newer coins, but I have even seen it with some Saint Gaudens. I thought some actions -- like cleaning -- would lead to the TPG's not even putting the coin in the slab but now it appears under some circumstances they will slab it but are giving a warning/more info. right next to the rating.

 

(1) Am I right ? Is this new or has it always been done ?

 

(2) With older coins, they seem to be grading them if they have been 'cleaned' but are assigning a grade nonetheless based on overall appearance without debiting for the cleaning. Again, do I have this right ?

 

(3) What is meant by the phrase 'Details' -- I see that on alot of the VF/EF coins that are over 150 years old.

 

Thanks.

[wdrob]

 

(1) Am I right ? Is this new or has it always been done ? Don't know how long but nothing recent.

 

(2) With older coins, they seem to be grading them if they have been 'cleaned' but are assigning a grade nonetheless based on overall appearance without debiting for the cleaning. Again, do I have this right ? I think what you are referring to here is what they call 'Net Grading' a coin. An example would be where a Gold $5 Indian might have a scratch but otherwise would have been a MS61 or so. They may choose to 'Net Grade' it as a AU58 rather than label it as a MS Details Scratched.

 

(3) What is meant by the phrase 'Details' -- I see that on alot of the VF/EF coins that are over 150 years old. Details is simply a coin that would other wise be a certain level but because the condition, such as a cleaning, is beyond what they feel comfortable 'Net Grading' they will give it a grade of MS, AU, VF, etc .. and then list the details why. Like in my picture below.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

OK...so the DETAILS is before the description of the violation, I get it.

 

So they didn't give you a numerical grade but did say UNC...and then they said it was improperly cleaned -- which I thought meant no-slab. Your coin was UNC but they didn't tell you what it would be without the cleaning, right ?

 

Did you know the coin was cleaned beforehand ?

[wdrob]

Actually yes and I am sure they knew as well before it even got inside their door since I had a thread on it over in Guess the Grade section.

 

I bought it for just a little over melt and it was in a 'Genuine' PCGS holder which just means that the person that had it graded by PCGS prior to my purchasing it probably marked the form to just have it listed a 'Genuine' and no 'Details Grade' given if it did not make it.

 

No they will not assign a number, just condition. Essentially it is considered a MS60 right now except that it is not worth as much as a 'Problem Free' MS60. But the coin is scarce enough that if it is not a terrible looking coin I can still get close to the MS60 realized auction amount for it if I decided to sell. Just depends on who needs one bad enough and also thinks that the condition is not severe enough that they might be able to get it into a problem free holder.

 

Some will try again and again since, for example, a MS63 of this coin lists in NGC at $8,100.00 ... I don't resubmit coins though so I won't be the one trying.

 

I could be wrong on some of this. If so someone will correct me.

 

 

 

[cpm9ball]

When a coin receives a "Details" grade from NGC or a "Genuine" from PCGS, it is because it is a problem coin which prevents it from receiving a numerical grade.

 

In the past, NGC used to return the coin to the submitter in a plastic flip with the reason for the "no grade". They started slabbing these problem coins a few years ago with the details grade (MS, AU, etc.) and the specific problem noted on the insert. I don't know how long PCGS has been doing it.

 

I may be wrong, but I don't think the submitter requests these "no-grade slabs".

 

Chris

[wdrob]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the submitter requests these "no-grade slabs".

 

I may be confused as well but on the PCGS submission form they have a section where you can choose 'Genuine Service' and check one of the following:

 

 

• Genuine With Details
  
• Genuine No Details
  
• Do Not Holder Genuine
   
  

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I've mentioned in previous threads that the way PCGS Currency Grading (they are not affiliated with PCGS for coins) handles it would be a great model for coins. Rather than a "details" grade, give an "apparent" grade, which tells what grade the coin looks like, then the disclaimer.

 

For example, "Apparent VF-30, cleaned".

[cpm9ball]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the submitter requests these "no-grade slabs".

 

I may be confused as well but on the PCGS submission form they have a section where you can choose 'Genuine Service' and check one of the following:

 

 

• Genuine With Details
  
• Genuine No Details
  
• Do Not Holder Genuine
   
  

 

 

 

Hi, James! I haven't seen you posting too much lately. Then again, I haven't either.

 

To me, it doesn't make sense that a submitter would request a "Genuine" slab unless they knew, beforehand, that it was a problem coin. I would think that most submitters would be hoping for a problem-free coin, first.

 

Chris

[MarkFeld]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the submitter requests these "no-grade slabs".

 

I may be confused as well but on the PCGS submission form they have a section where you can choose 'Genuine Service' and check one of the following:

 

 

• Genuine With Details
  
• Genuine No Details
  
• Do Not Holder Genuine
   
  

 

 

 

Hi, James! I haven't seen you posting too much lately. Then again, I haven't either.

 

To me, it doesn't make sense that a submitter would request a "Genuine" slab unless they knew, beforehand, that it was a problem coin. I would think that most submitters would be hoping for a problem-free coin, first.

 

Chris

 

Chris, I expect that the submitter would be choosing the genuine slab, as an alternative, in the event that the coin fails to receive a problem-free grade. Choice 1) problem-free grade; choice 2) if coin fails to receive problem-free grade, give it a details grade, rather than return it in a flip.

[wdrob]

 

Chris, I expect that the submitter would be choosing the genuine slab, as an alternative, in the event that the coin fails to receive a problem-free grade. Choice 1) problem-free grade; choice 2) if coin fails to receive problem-free grade, give it a details grade, rather than return it in a flip.

 

That is the way I understood it as well. It would possibly be advantageous in the 'Problem Coin' area where the person submitting is somewhat certain the coin is a details coin but they think the condition would be lower (and deter possible resell) if noted on the holder, but are willing to take a chance to see if it will be net graded.

 

Personally I think it is best just to have them place the condition as well as the details, such as the example I provided If I know it will be a details coin.

 

I did not check to see if NGC's options include that. I just renewed my membership so I guess I will check and see. Still trying to decide if I will renew PCGS membership.

 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Chris, I expect that the submitter would be choosing the genuine slab, as an alternative, in the event that the coin fails to receive a problem-free grade. Choice 1) problem-free grade; choice 2) if coin fails to receive problem-free grade, give it a details grade, rather than return it in a flip.

 

As I have never submitted a coin to NGC or PCGS (might this year), this was all new to me, thanks for the explanation Mark and others ! (thumbs u

[Conder101]

When PCGS and NGC started they said that they would never put problem coins in their slabs, never, never, never.

 

About four of five years ago PCGS stopped sending problem coins back in bodybags and started putting them in slabs marked GENUINE with no grades. They said they would slab genuine coins but would not assign grades to them.

 

About a year later they started adding grades to them as well, Genuine XX Details. NGC followed suit but just marked them as Details and a grade. I believe PCGS then dropped the Genuine and just left the details grade.

 

As for the Genuine Service on the forms, I am not sure you can select that by itself, but you might. I would say that the real reason it is there is to provide them with instructions about what to do if your coin will not grade clean. If it won't, they look at that line of the form to see if you want it to come back unslabbed (Do Not Holder Genuine), slabbed but just marked GENUINE with no grade (Genuine No Details), or slabbed Genuine with a details grade (Genuine with Details).

 

Notice that the "Genuine with Details" is a default option. If you do not mark any of those boxes and your coin will not slab clean, it will come back marked Genuine with a Details grade.

[RWB]

re: "Grading Comments On The Slabs"

 

I think it's enough to grade the coins and not have to bother with giving a grade to any comments on the slab, also.

 

[BillJones]

If the coin is judged to be worthy of a "clean grade" and not a "no grade" there should not be any other comments. Let the buyers make up their own minds. If the coin is a problem piece that can't get a clean grade, then give it a sharpness grade and state the problem with perhaps a net grade.

 

Many years ago the old ANACS certificates had a comment section about eye appeal on the back. I thought that was unnecessary and potentially detrimental for sellers. Not everyone has the same idea as what is "pretty" and what isn't. The grader should give an opinion on the technical grade, but beyond the excessive handholding is not welcome.

 

[BROADSTRUCK]

When PCGS and NGC started they said that they would never put problem coins in their slabs, never, never, never.

 

About four of five years ago PCGS stopped sending problem coins back in bodybags and started putting them in slabs marked GENUINE with no grades. They said they would slab genuine coins but would not assign grades to them.

 

About a year later they started adding grades to them as well, Genuine XX Details. NGC followed suit but just marked them as Details and a grade. I believe PCGS then dropped the Genuine and just left the details grade.

 

As for the Genuine Service on the forms, I am not sure you can select that by itself, but you might. I would say that the real reason it is there is to provide them with instructions about what to do if your coin will not grade clean. If it won't, they look at that line of the form to see if you want it to come back unslabbed (Do Not Holder Genuine), slabbed but just marked GENUINE with no grade (Genuine No Details), or slabbed Genuine with a details grade (Genuine with Details).

 

Notice that the "Genuine with Details" is a default option. If you do not mark any of those boxes and your coin will not slab clean, it will come back marked Genuine with a Details grade.

 

A lot of the new services offered in the last 5 years were just to make sure there would be continued steady revenue in a poor economy... McDonald's has served 99 billion consumers and is still coming up with new gimmicks to keep from closing restaurants.

[wdrob]

 

As for the Genuine Service on the forms, I am not sure you can select that by itself, but you might. I would say that the real reason it is there is to provide them with instructions about what to do if your coin will not grade clean.

 

I agree and did not intend to imply that you could just mark a box there and send it in.

 

I can see where someone might not want "AU Details Cleaned" on the label it's self. They may just want it to show that it is a genuine coin and let a future buyer be the judge of the grade.

 

Even though the PCGS "Genuine" coin that I bought did not have a reason on the label, a quick look up on the certificate listed '92' Cleaned. However it did not say AU Cleaned or UNC Cleaned so I would think that could be the only advantage of selecting Genuine only. A later buyer would be confident that the coin is genuine but they would have to form their own opinion on grade.

 

 

 

 

[DaveG]

GoldFinger,

 

The main thing for you to focus on is: "A problem coin will always be a problem coin" and not to buy a coin in a "Genuine" or "Details" slab until you are much, much more expert than you are now.

 

Later, you can decide on your own if you want to own such a coin and, most important, how much to pay for it.

[GoldFinger1969]

When PCGS and NGC started they said that they would never put problem coins in their slabs, never, never, never. About four of five years ago PCGS stopped sending problem coins back in bodybags and started putting them in slabs marked GENUINE with no grades. They said they would slab genuine coins but would not assign grades to them.

 

I actually am glad they are slabbing problem/cleaned/altered coins.

 

By sealing them and letting others know the defect, there is less chance of fraud.

 

If a coin normally would be MS-65 but 20 years ago some kid wiped it a few times with a cloth, I don't think it should not be slabbed. If the alterations were more major, then say it or knock the net grade down further.

 

Just disclose it all, the buyer can then make an informed decision. (thumbs u

[GoldFinger1969]

GoldFinger, The main thing for you to focus on is: "A problem coin will always be a problem coin" and not to buy a coin in a "Genuine" or "Details" slab until you are much, much more expert than you are now.Later, you can decide on your own if you want to own such a coin and, most important, how much to pay for it.

 

Agreed...even with the Saints, where I have done my best work, I just feel given my limited purchases I have to buy the graded coins for protection.

 

If I was spending a small fortune every year and got burned a few hundred or a thousand bucks on 1 coin, no great loss. But that's not the case for me or I suspect most of us.